Eddie Howe

[Bimpy474]

3 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Miley wouldn’t have been getting minutes if the others were fit.  It’s desperation that caused him to play.

 

That's kind of the same across most clubs, unless you have an exceptional youngster. Injuries mean chances and Miley took his. 

 

The whole club needed a rebuild, the youth teams are now being treated properly not as an after thought, but it will take a while for that to change and filter through, and its a change in culture after so many years of neglect.

 

And even then not many youngsters come through, you really are searching for a particular needle in haystack of needles, but with proper scouting we might just find one or two.

[buzza]

Just for perspective, why don´t we all compare our current manager with some of our recent ones and just be thankful for a while:

CABBAGE HEED

"THE KING"

JFK (Joe F***ing Kinnear)

LICK SPITTLE (Carver)

BIG SAM

 

 

 

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, buzza said:

Just for perspective, why don´t we all compare our current manager with some of our recent ones and just be thankful for a while:

CABBAGE HEED

"THE KING"

JFK (Joe F***ing Kinnear)

LICK SPITTLE (Carver)

BIG SAM

 

 

 

I’ve never bought this tbf.  The Ashley years aren’t a benchmark for the club.  ‘At least it isn’t peak-Ashley’ is about as low as it gets on the ambition scale. 

[The Prophet]

49 minutes ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Is that the way Howe’s team played n the victory over Arsenal this season? (1-0 H) or the May 2022 2-0 H win? What about Man City in the League Cup (1-0 H)? or the narrow loss to them (0-1) away? Or the 3-3 H draw last season? Or even the 2-3 loss this season. We’ve scored six in three home games to ‘that’ side. How about the two victories against Man Utd this season (3-0 A and 1-0 H)? Or the away draw (0-0) and home victory (2-0) over them last season? What about the 4-1 H defeat of Chelsea? 

Did the 2-1 A and 6-1 H victories over Spurs last season count? Or the last two home demolitions of Villa? (5-1 and 4-0)? Even the 1-2 loss at home to Liverpool when we had 60% possession and 23 shots. 
 

Or do you think Howe’s tactics in the last game and the disappointment of not beating teams at home recently in some way wipe out the past performances and just show that this is the Howe/NUFC way? We’ve seen some amazing performances, and despite the ‘he only plays one way’ baloney, of course he/they are flexible tactically and will cut their cloth according to the opposition and the way we think we’ll get the best result. And of course it is not always going to work. Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal are absolutely top class teams who we can still only aspire to be like. Ourselves and Villa are in the conversation with Man Utd, Chelsea, and Spurs. Even in the best case scenario we’ll be hovering around top third for an another season or two. Howe is our second best PL era manager in terms of points return. He will be the best by the end of next season. Just settle in and enjoy the ride. 

 

He was straw manning my argument, I don't think it was serious post.

[The Prophet]

 

[Big Jow]

16 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Your point was that we set out for a draw, and this was the template since for away games. We set out to control the ball and obviously wanted to contain it in their half, they were great though, similar to Dortmund at SJP, and cut us apart on the break. 2nd half they took control of the game and it was a painful watch, but we definitely didn't turn up at the San Siro with the plan of camping in our own half, or playing out a draw.

 

We were brilliant, but I don't know why you think this is down to Howe specifically taking a different approach in that game though?

 

Other than fatigue, and at places like Man City/Liverpool/Arsenal, Howe will want to play up the pitch and step onto the opposition, it's his entire philosophy as a manager, and it's how we defend and attack.

 

I'm not denying Howe will have made a lot of mistakes this season, but I cannot see why he would willingly throw away his philosophy, we've spent the majority of the season with butchered squad so it's hard to gauge much:

 

West Ham

Shef Utd

Milan

Brighton

Man City 

 

Those were our away games before we hit that period of bad injuries/suspensions.

 

If you genuinely believe we set out to control the ball away at AC Milan, I’m not sure we’ll ever get to any sort of agreement.

 

I’ve explained the difference in the tactical approaches. Villa was brilliant and it was also a very different tactical set up to Bournemouth, which was the same poor set up we have had in the other games listed.

 

I’ve also said I don’t understand his change in approach either, the only explanation I can come to myself is that he’s changed it this season to try and manage fatigue with the extra fixtures. Which also doesn’t really make sense because he’s passed up multiple opportunities to manage fatigue with substitutes.

[The College Dropout]

12 hours ago, Big Jow said:

The excuses of injuries, fatigue, suspensions, the schedule, the time our flight takes off are not actually as strong as people believed. They never have been.

 

This crap performance yesterday wasn’t down to any of those things. Our away form all season has mainly been due to these bizarre tactics we’ve put in place away from home. It first appeared at AC Milan and I wonder if the fact Howe thinks it ‘worked’ (depending on whether you view clinging on for 90 minutes for a draw is a good result) has been the reason he has persisted with it.

 

The reality is, it hasn’t worked, ever. We rode our luck in Milan and in other variations of it at Liverpool, Dortmund, PSG, Tottenham, Everton, Bournemouth have all shown it’s a disaster waiting to happen.

 

You only need to look at the games we’ve been successful in away from home like Villa where we took the game to them to realise even more what a crap plan it is.

 

Yes, we’ve had injuries and several other issues but we didn’t in Milan. This approach has been designed for us from the beginning.

 

Today we had what? Tonali, Big Joe & Pope missing out of the first 11 (assuming the former two start ahead of Little Joe). Are we so depleted we had to play the whole first 45 minutes on our goal line? 

 

We’ve had much worse starting 11s against much better Arsenal 11s in this fixture before (with much worse managers too) without resorting to that and it was criminal to set up in the way we did.

 

Howe was absolutely sensational last season and gave me some of my best memories as a Newcastle fan, last season his plan worked to some extent, although towards the end teams worked out how to play against us and we started to struggle.

 

Refusing to change formation, refusing to change tactics, refusing to address the gigantic gap between defence and midfield, refusing to take Burn out the 11 until today, refusing to play Hall, refusing to bring others on to rest players towards the end of games have all played a significant factor in terms of how this season have panned out. That said a lot of ‘elite’ managers are stubborn.

 

People continue to say “but what else can he do”, all of the above is the answer, because time and time again this season, what he has done hasn’t worked so he should maybe consider something else.

 

PSG for example, hoofing balls up to Isak for the last 45 minutes when he could barely walk, I don’t care if we had Riviere on the bench, bring him on for the last 10-15 minutes as he’ll at least be able to run and potentially keep hold of the ball. 

 

The only thing that I can’t work out, is if he’s as stubborn as above, why have we had a total U-turn this season with tactics from last? I can only assume he did this to try and conserve energy with the extra games.

 

We’re a dream to play against. The opposing manager and teams know exactly who will be playing and how we’ll set up.

 

The best situation is Howe reacts and changes, because I’d love for him to progress as we do, as he’s earned it. But sadly, this has striking similarities as to why he got relegated with Bournemouth, he was too stubborn to change. Not that we’ll get relegated, but we’ll be inconsistent and finish 8-12th every year under him imo. I’d love to be wrong though.

 

We’ll not improve this season by sacking Howe at this stage, he also has credit in the bank, but no idea if I’d look to replace him this summer or let him have one final crack at the whip with a blank sheet next year. We’re all in on the FA Cup this season and he needs to get that right.

I agree with a lot of what you've said but I disagree with this part. Again with the Klopp comparison - I think he's more feast or famine type of manager. Even at Bournemouth - he wasn't involved in any serious relegation scrap before relegation - they had 1 bad year and got relegated. Before that, they never finished closer than 5 points to 18th and that was in their 1st season and they ended the season in horrible form (1 point in the last 5 games) so they were likely on the beach mentally.

 

So I have this theory that with Howe - it either works well then suddenly crashes if it doesn't work well. These are his points from Bournemouth in the PL:

42, 46, 49, 34

 

It worked really well - better actually - then the arse completely fell out. I think injuries were a big problem that season too.

 

So I think he can implement a way he wants his teams to play. And it generally works brilliantly. But when it doesn't work and he can't play that way efficiently - he doesn't have any other answers.  He's having that season now. If we strengthen in the summer and avoid major injuries next year either, without Europe or a lower intensity Euro comp - I'm confident we'll fight for the CL again.

 

It might be required from a FFP perspective. But I don't think the squad needs tearing up and rebuilding like many do. But I think Howe needs to change his approach to rotation and injury recovery if he's to be our manager in the CL year in year out.

[Coffee_Johnny]

1 hour ago, Big Jow said:

 

I think you’ve misinterpreted the sarcasm in the response I was giving to the quoted post.

Yep, re-read but still might useful to state the bleeding obvious context ? 

[The College Dropout]

3 hours ago, Gallowgate Toon said:

Klopp has been criticised for running players into the ground. He's had extensive injury lists on many occasions.

 

 

 

Aye - TAA & Salah recently got reinjured soon after returns from injury.

 

6 minutes ago, Big Jow said:

 

If you genuinely believe we set out to control the ball away at AC Milan, I’m not sure we’ll ever get to any sort of agreement.

 

I’ve explained the difference in the tactical approaches. Villa was brilliant and it was also a very different tactical set up to Bournemouth, which was the same poor set up we have had in the other games listed.

 

I’ve also said I don’t understand his change in approach either, the only explanation I can come to myself is that he’s changed it this season to try and manage fatigue with the extra fixtures. Which also doesn’t really make sense because he’s passed up multiple opportunities to manage fatigue with substitutes.

No point going back and forth with Hans. I've had the same discussions with him at the time. I agree with what you're saying.

 

We've had several games (or at least halves) that mirror the Arsenal game. It's just that at Arsenal we conceded early and lost confidence/composure. The Milan game you're referring too.. maybe the first half was better. But the second half it was wave and wave of Milan pressure. PSG away second half... waves of opposition pressure, Chelsea in the league cup waves of opposition pressure... Wolves away until Neto got injured second half - waves of opposition pressure. Howe doesn't do anything about it unless the opposition score.

 

Especially earlier in the season we tried a more controlled press that simply doesn't work.

 

I agree with your assessment of Howe's approach to away games / player fitness in the main.

 

 

[The Prophet]

Milan away, they were quite happy for us to have the ball, knowing how effective their counter attack was.

 

No Joelinton and Willock, along with a half fit Longstaff made the midfield too easy to play through. Due to absentees, it's been a theme this season.

 

Howe has tried to switch up the flat midfield three. We've had Bruno deep, Miley and Longstaff deep, Miley and Longstaff switched, man for man pressing, being more passive, but none of it has looked particularly effective with the personnel available. Unless he switches formations it'll be a struggle.

 

Klopp had a similar problem last season and Liverpool went out and bought an entire midfield unit. It's a system that requires physicality and athleticism in the middle.

[Hanshithispantz]

17 minutes ago, Big Jow said:

 

If you genuinely believe we set out to control the ball away at AC Milan, I’m not sure we’ll ever get to any sort of agreement.

First half:

 

 

It never worked as Tomori was outstanding, and Milan were lethal on the break, but it was pretty obvious we never set up to camp in our own half and play out a draw.

 

2nd half they completely controlled.

 

Like I say, it was similar to Dortmund at home, Howe definitely 'got done' in both games.

 

 

 

Edited February 26 by Hanshithispantz

[Sibierski]

I don’t think our set up under Howe away to Milan/PSG was wrong. Yea it was negative and we rode our luck, but anything more than 0 points was a bonus and we got 2 points (should’ve been 4) with massive luck needed. It was at home in UCL where we got things badly wrong and what cost us.

 

How we set up against Dortmund and played the game throughout was naive, despite the constant threats. Then Milan, we again were naive. We should’ve dropped off, accepted that Milan had to push if they wanted to stay in Europe at all and play on counter for final 20, instead we basically handed on a plate for Milan to win and we had no Europe.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

2 minutes ago, Sibierski said:

I don’t think our set up under Howe away to Milan/PSG was wrong. Yea it was negative and we rode our luck, but anything more than 0 points was a bonus and we got 2 points (should’ve been 4) with massive luck needed. It was at home in UCL where we got things badly wrong and what cost us.

 

How we set up against Dortmund and played the game throughout was naive, despite the constant threats. Then Milan, we again were naive. We should’ve dropped off, accepted that Milan had to push if they wanted to stay in Europe at all and play on counter for final 20, instead we basically handed on a plate for Milan to win and we had no Europe.

 

We did want to stay in the CL though, not just settle for Europa. 

 

And we should still be in if it wasn't for a horrific decision.

[Big Jow]

2 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

First half:

 

 

It never worked as Tomori was outstanding, and Milan were lethal on the break, but it was pretty obvious we never set up to camp in our own half and play out a draw.

 

2nd half they completely controlled.

 

Like I say, it was similar to Dortmund at home, Howe definitely 'got done' in bith games.

 

 

 

 

 

The stats page I was looking at had possession at 50/50 interesting that they differ.

 

You also don’t include key metrics like shots (them 15, to our 2). Or where that possession was on the pitch, a majority of the first half possession was defensively.

 

We could have 95% possession but if we set up like he did, it is only going to achieve a draw at best unless we attempt to attack and/or have shots.

[Big Jow]

1 minute ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

We did want to stay in the CL though, not just settle for Europa. 

 

And we should still be in if it wasn't for a horrific decision.

 

We would’ve beat Milan at home if we didn’t get that shocker at PSG, we only lost that game as we got more and more desperate.

 

We were also unlucky vs. Dortmund at home, were worthy of a point. Suppose that’s football at the highest level though, fine margins.

[The College Dropout]

8 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Milan away, they were quite happy for us to have the ball, knowing how effective their counter attack was.

 

No Joelinton and Willock, along with a half fit Longstaff made the midfield too easy to play through. Due to absentees, it's been a theme this season.

 

Howe has tried to switch up the flat midfield three. We've had Bruno deep, Miley and Longstaff deep, Miley and Longstaff switched, man for man pressing, being more passive, but none of it has looked particularly effective with the personnel available. Unless he switches formations it'll be a struggle.

 

Klopp had a similar problem last season and Liverpool went out and bought an entire midfield unit. It's a system that requires physicality and athleticism in the middle.

Second half Milan it was backs-to-the-wall stuff. Along with an exhausted Isak playing way too long. That's been a theme this season in several games. IMO we were lucky to get that point. We've kept performing like that (and worse) and have reaped our deserved lack of points. As you say, injuries and fatigue have also played a factor but as Big Jow points out - it was happening before both of those really hit.

 

Overall I agree with most of your points.

[Sibierski]

6 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

We did want to stay in the CL though, not just settle for Europa. 

 

And we should still be in if it wasn't for a horrific decision.

And that could’ve been done by not being naive. Milan main strength was counter, they too wanted to stay in and had to push for a win. Shift the game style and overall game management, instead we went gung-ho, and early too in that approach, and played right into their strengths. Then we were shattered to try and break them down just to get back level.

 

 

Edited February 26 by Sibierski

[The Prophet]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Second half Milan it was backs-to-the-wall stuff. Along with an exhausted Isak playing way too long. That's been a theme this season in several games. IMO we were lucky to get that point. We've kept performing like that (and worse) and have reaped our deserved lack of points. As you say, injuries and fatigue have also played a factor but as Big Jow points out - it was happening before both of those really hit.

 

Overall I agree with most of your points.

 

I don't think anyone would dispute we were lucky to escape with a point, Pope was outstanding.

 

The gap between the midfield and defence has been a constant tactical problem all season, which is exacerbated when we're unable to press effectively.

 

Personally, it's why I'd like us to buy a DM. It gives us a bit more flexibility in games where the press isn't working or we're unable to do so effectively due to injury or fatigue.

[Erikse]

4 hours ago, Optimistic Nut said:

 

Pretty sure if our kids were as good as theirs, he'd be playing them (see Miley).

 

Our equivalent of the kid they threw on up top is currently on loan in the Scottish 3rd tier, for instance. 

 

The argument was often that we should never take off our main players for kids who hasn't played before, as if that's something that you can almost never do. If you read back the exact words that were often used, then that would also cover what Klopp did yesterday as something that you should never do.

 

Also, did Miley get any minutes at all in the league when we had any other senior player available? He hasn't come on as a sub in any game, and as far as I can remember we've never had any other midfielders available when he has started in the league this season.

 

 

Edited February 26 by Erikse

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, Big Jow said:

 

We would’ve beat Milan at home if we didn’t get that shocker at PSG, we only lost that game as we got more and more desperate.

 

We were also unlucky vs. Dortmund at home, were worthy of a point. Suppose that’s football at the highest level though, fine margins.

I don't think we were unlucky against Dortmund at all. Well beaten in both games.

 

Truthfully, I don't think we played well in the CL on the balance of play. Obviously game state changes how the games pan out. 

 

No issue with the Dortmund or PSG H performances. We tried to play our game and we came up short on quality and high on naivety.

 

I'm not mad though - we were the weakest team on paper in that group and we deservedly finished last based on performance. But out on that pitch we were cheated.

[The College Dropout]

3 minutes ago, Erikse said:

 

The argument was often that we should never take off our main players for kids who hasn't played before, as if that's something that you can almost never do. If you read back the exact words that were often used, then that would also cover what Klopp did yesterday as something that you should never do.

 

Also, did Miley get any minutes at all in the league when we had any other senior player available? He hasn't come on as a sub in any game, and as far as I can remember we've never had any other midfielders available when he has started in the league this season.

 

 

 

It's a bad-faith argument that's best to ignore. There have been several games Isak is barely moving for 30 minutes. Literally anyone that can run would've done a better job.

 

I get the argument that he's left on incase he comes up with a bit of magic. But after the 3rd time he's offered nowt in those circumstances you would hope lessons have been learned. And I do think perhaps lessons are being learned. Howe is taking Isak off earlier when he tires for example.

 

 

Edited February 26 by The College Dropout

[The Prophet]

3 minutes ago, Erikse said:

 

The argument was often that we should never take off our main players for kids who hasn't played before, as if that's something that you can almost never do. If you read back the exact words that were often used, then that would also cover what Klopp did yesterday as something that you should never do.

 

Also, did Miley get any minutes at all in the league when we had any other senior player available? He hasn't come on as a sub in any game, and as far as I can remember we've never had any other midfielders available when he has started in the league this season.

 

 

 

 

Is that not somewhat dependant on the quality of said kids?

[Hanshithispantz]

1 minute ago, Big Jow said:

 

The stats page I was looking at had possession at 50/50 interesting that they differ.

 

You also don’t include key metrics like shots (them 15, to our 2). Or where that possession was on the pitch, a majority of the first half possession was defensively.

 

We could have 95% possession but if we set up like he did, it is only going to achieve a draw at best unless we attempt to attack and/or have shots.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here? Milan were far better than us, I'm not denying that.

 

My point us that we started the game with Milan sitting back and hitting us on the break. We couldn't break them down and they repeatedly cut through us.

 

You made a point that we set up to play out a draw, sitting infront of our own box, and that apparently has been Howe's blueprint ever since?

[Erikse]

2 hours ago, The Prophet said:

 

Is that not somewhat dependant on the quality of said kids?

 

It's dependant on other things too as I said earlier. Klopp took them on for Gakpo and MacAllister in a final. I believe they weren't nearly as knackered as some of our players were. Do you think Howe would've done the same?

 

 

Edited February 26 by Erikse

[The Prophet]

Just now, Erikse said:

 

It's dependant on other things too as I said earlier. Klopp took them on for Gakpo and MacAllister in a final. Do you think Howe would do that?

 

Not with our kids, no. Give him Liverpool's academy and I don't have a clue.