Eddie Howe

[The College Dropout]

8th

4th

4th (CL winners?)

2nd

1st

 

Probably gave Klopp the credit to get away with 1 bad season (which he deserves criticism for)

 

If people think Howe's 4th finish buys him the credit to finish 9th the next season, that's fair enough.

 

[80]

7 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

I do think though that Howe is stubbornly married to this current system. Admirable in a way but he's on the record in his press conference yesterday saying the system we play is not the issue. If the current players aren't good enough to play the system then surely the system needs tweaking or altered until the players that are good enough come back? Every single side we've played since we beat Man Utd in December have played through us at will. It's been my only serious, level headed worry about Howe this season.

 

That's the thing - imagine we put November 2021 Eddie in a time machine and brought him to now, and he was preparing his slide deck for his interview, giving detailed presentations on each individual player in the way that so impressed Yasir Al-Rumayyan.

 

Do we think he'd propose implementing the system and approach we have now, and damn the consequences? I don't. So I think there's been a shift in emphasis from tailoring around the players we have to making them fit what he thinks is the best tactic, without due respect to whether they're capable of it.

 

I give Howe a lot of leeway with his press conferences. He's very secretive about methods and thoughts, and will straight lie about something if he thinks it's necessary, which is fine. Bearing that in mind therefore, he does concern me sometimes in the way he analyses our match performances, which pretty much boil down to "the players worked very hard and stuck to the plan to fight hard, which was good", or "the players didn't/couldn't work hard enough and didn't defend hard enough, which was bad".

 

As I say, I appreciate he is probably holding back more developed thoughts and doesn't just say these same things to the players, but sometimes he does a very good acting performance of actually thinking this way. It does bother me because there definitely is more to football than being the hardest runner, and I don't think that's a secret he needs to keep.

[timeEd32]

22 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

8th

4th

4th (CL winners?)

2nd

1st

 

Probably gave Klopp the credit to get away with 1 bad season (which he deserves criticism for)

 

If people think Howe's 4th finish buys him the credit to finish 9th the next season, that's fair enough.

 

 

Given the circumstances I have no reservations giving the most promising manager we've had in two decades a pass this season whether we finish 9th, 10th, 11th, whatever.

[Interpolic]

When people talk about changing system, they basically mean 5ATB don't they?  We don't have 2 fit strikers and have already tried 4231 with Bruno as the AM.  I'm not sure 5ATB from the start is the answer either tbh.

[The College Dropout]

6 minutes ago, 80 said:

That's the thing - imagine we put November 2021 Eddie in a time machine and brought him to now, and he was preparing his slide deck for his interview, giving detailed presentations on each individual player in the way that so impressed Yasir Al-Rumayyan.

 

Do we think he'd propose implementing the system and approach we have now, and damn the consequences? I don't. So I think there's been a shift in emphasis from tailoring around the players we have to making them fit what he thinks is the best tactic, without due respect to whether they're capable of it.

 

I give Howe a lot of leeway with his press conferences. He's very secretive about methods and thoughts, and will straight lie about something if he thinks it's necessary, which is fine. Bearing that in mind therefore, he does concern me sometimes in the way he analyses our match performances, which pretty much boil down to "the players worked very hard and stuck to the plan to fight hard, which was good", or "the players didn't/couldn't work hard enough and didn't defend hard enough, which was bad".

 

As I say, I appreciate he is probably holding back more developed thoughts and doesn't just say these same things to the players, but sometimes he does a very good acting performance of actually thinking this way. It does bother me because there definitely is more to football than being the hardest runner, and I don't think that's a secret he needs to keep.

He's an absolute liar in press conferences. Doesn't say anything useful 95% of the time. As an FPL player i just ignore what he says.

[Big Jow]

2 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

It all sounds so simple.

 

So when Mourinho was stinking at Spurs why didn't he just change setting? 

 

When Conte was stinking at Spurs why couldn't he just change setting?

 

These are the elite managers we should be after right? Why couldn't they both just figure it out, even without an injury crisis?

 

 

 

Because both Mourinho and Conte are stubborn managers, which ultimately led to their sacking.

 

Really weird example to use.

[Shearergol]

5 hours ago, Smal said:

[HaydnNUFC]

Just now, Interpolic said:

When people talk about changing system, they basically mean 5ATB don't they?  We don't have 2 fit strikers and have already tried 4231 with Bruno as the AM.  I'm not sure 5ATB from the start is the answer either tbh.

 

In games like Saturday, for me aye. A 5-4-1/5-2-3. It's negative but it won't get walked through as much the current system does with the current players available. He hasn't been averse to going to that either, Chelsea away in 21-22 when we were robbed, when we've went to it in games this season. Probably wouldn't do it at home, mind. Then again, we haven't beat a side that hasn't gone down to 10 men at home for almost 3 months.

 

Even still, he almost left it too late at Villa; the change wasn't going to be made until their 2nd goal was marginally disallowed. It was clear as day that Livramento had to come on to shut down Bailey, that 2nd Villa goal stands and I'm not sure we win that match.

[TRon]

35 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

8th

4th

4th (CL winners?)

2nd

1st

 

Probably gave Klopp the credit to get away with 1 bad season (which he deserves criticism for)

 

If people think Howe's 4th finish buys him the credit to finish 9th the next season, that's fair enough.

 

 

 

It does. He'll be judged on next season when we have a squad fit for purpose. Or at least I hope we have a squad fit for purpose, because we played most of this season with one that wasn't.

[80]

1 hour ago, Interpolic said:

When people talk about changing system, they basically mean 5ATB don't they?  We don't have 2 fit strikers and have already tried 4231 with Bruno as the AM.  I'm not sure 5ATB from the start is the answer either tbh.

Partially, although I think it broadens out to not basing our approach on a successful aggressive press. Plus how much emphasis is placed upon dominating every opponent from the first minute. There's something to be said for flooding and stifling an opponent until they get frustrated, exhausted and make mistakes, sometimes. But we've never done that under Eddie, even when there have been opportunities (Liverpool at home in 22/23 is my standard example of this).

 

 

Edited February 27 by 80

[The College Dropout]

Out out possession in a well-coached mid to low block - I love a 442.

[Big Jow]

For me it’s almost impossible to make a determination on whether I would replace Howe in the summer as there is too many jigsaw pieces missing, which I will never know.

 

I know he isn’t where I’d like him to be tactically during this difficult season. I know I disagree with some of his decision making and approaches and I firmly believe we are out of cups and further down the table than we could be, even with the significant issues. Some of which I believe are his responsibility or he has been a factor in.

 

However, all of things I don’t know is a large deciding factor, for example:

 

1. Does Howe have a fetish for expensive and limited British/PL players? Is he responsible for trying to push through deals for Phillips and McTominay?

2. Is this “breakdown of trust” with Ashworth real and if so, who is to blame and why?

3. What are his long term plans with signings (if he is even responsible for the decision)

4. Why is he appearing stubborn in his approach and what is he expecting to achieve from it?

5. Have previously positive relationships with players like Almiron changed, leading to a lack of form, was the attempted sale Howe or club led?

 

It’s not a straightforward decision with some idiot like Bruce, who you know his glaring limitations but also know he’d be making ridiculously shite decisions in the background. 

 

As far as I see it we have an exceptional talent who has limitations. He did sensational things with Bournemouth and us in his first season and a half. However, he also got relegated with Bournemouth due to his limitations. Will we progress further from here or stall/go backwards? The answer to that is in the 5 questions above.

 

If I knew the answers to the above I’d be willing to give a firm opinion on it, but we’ll likely never know. I disagree with some who have posted who feel you have to be Howe in or Howe out, it’s not as black and white as that.

[Holmesy]

26 minutes ago, Interpolic said:

When people talk about changing system, they basically mean 5ATB don't they?  We don't have 2 fit strikers and have already tried 4231 with Bruno as the AM.  I'm not sure 5ATB from the start is the answer either tbh.

Not necessarily although i'd like to see it. I just think with the pace of Almiron and Gordon, the clinical nature of Isak and the precision of Bruno and Tripper, we have the perfect set-up to hit teams on the counter. So maybe play deeper, press when the opposition cross the halfway line and capitalise on the space in behind. Basically exactly what some teams have done to us. If that's a deeper 4-3-3, fine. And not all the time, just as a plan B to see out games or against teams who are shitting on us - Arsenal, Dortmund, Forest etc.

 

 

Edited February 27 by Holmesy

[Big Jow]

2 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

Not necessarily although i'd like to see it. I just think with the pace of Almiron and Gordon, the clinical nature of Isak and the precision of Bruno and Tripper, we have the perfect set-up to hit teams on the counter. So maybe play deeper, press when the opposition cross the halfway line and capitalise on the space in behind. Basically exactly what some teams have done to us. If that's a deeper 4-3-3, fine. And not all the time, just as a plan B to see out games or against teams who are shitting on us - Arsenal, Dortmund, Forest etc.

 

 

 

 

That’s exactly how I would play.

 

I assumed initially this is what Howe was trying to do but it’s not possible in this set up because we clear the ball to Isak and the closest player to him is 40 yards away.

[Mills and Boon]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

8th

4th

4th (CL winners?)

2nd

1st

 

Probably gave Klopp the credit to get away with 1 bad season (which he deserves criticism for)

 

If people think Howe's 4th finish buys him the credit to finish 9th the next season, that's fair enough.

 

 

We're the ninth highest payers in terms of salary and league position usually has a strong correlation with that. We overachieved last season, ninth place should be our expectation (not aim) so with that and the injuries, suspensions, extra games all taken into consideration nobody should be disappointed if we finish top half as we'd be par for the course despite those adversities.

 

But we're all human so inevitably there'll still be disappointment, which is fair enough. There's a lot of knee jerk overreaction going around though, which isn't great

[The College Dropout]

Where are you getting 9th from?

We have the 7th highest wage bill in the league

 

[timeEd32]

54 minutes ago, Big Jow said:

1. Does Howe have a fetish for expensive and limited British/PL players? Is he responsible for trying to push through deals for Phillips and McTominay?

 

Why are you potentially judging him or anyone on things that didn't happen? If we assume there's some truth to every link we've heard then many fit the same pattern of PL-based players we've signed.

 

Pope - relegated

Gordon - financial problems; falling out with club

Tino - relegated; injury

Barnes - relegated

Hall - financial problems; surplus

 

McTominay - frozen out (at the time)

Onana - major financial problems

Phillips - not playing and very available

 

The difference with the latter three is we clearly weren't happy with the asking prices. There's probably dozens of others we've inquired about and I'd bet that many of them fall into the category of distressed or vulnerable assets.

[Big Jow]

19 minutes ago, timeEd32 said:

 

Why are you potentially judging him or anyone on things that didn't happen? If we assume there's some truth to every link we've heard then many fit the same pattern of PL-based players we've signed.

 

Pope - relegated

Gordon - financial problems; falling out with club

Tino - relegated; injury

Barnes - relegated

Hall - financial problems; surplus

 

McTominay - frozen out (at the time)

Onana - major financial problems

Phillips - not playing and very available

 

The difference with the latter three is we clearly weren't happy with the asking prices. There's probably dozens of others we've inquired about and I'd bet that many of them fall into the category of distressed or vulnerable assets.

 

I’m not judging him on it, which is why I said I’d prefer to know the answers before making assumptions or judgements.

 

I’d be concerned if there was truth to the McTominay and Phillips rumours being led by Howe as they are exactly the opposite of what we need. The wider point is about chasing expensive but poor signings based on PL or British experience. If this was the case I don’t think we’ll progress like we want to because we’ll constantly overpay for players when FFP is already hampering our efforts. Hence why, if it was true, I’d have question marks over Howe in that regard.

 

However, as I said, we don’t and won’t know, so it blurs the lines as to whether it’s a genuine concern and therefore makes it impossible to judge.

[timeEd32]

4 minutes ago, Big Jow said:

 

I’m not judging him on it, which is why I said I’d prefer to know the answers before making assumptions or judgements.

 

I’d be concerned if there was truth to the McTominay and Phillips rumours being led by Howe as they are exactly the opposite of what we need. The wider point is about chasing expensive but poor signings based on PL or British experience. If this was the case I don’t think we’ll progress like we want to because we’ll constantly overpay for players when FFP is already hampering our efforts. Hence why, if it was true, I’d have question marks over Howe in that regard.

 

However, as I said, we don’t and won’t know, so it blurs the lines as to whether it’s a genuine concern and therefore makes it impossible to judge.

 

This is the part that keeps getting left out of some of the freak outs when we're linked with some of these players though (and I'm not saying this is you, I don't know). But there's no reason to think we're interested in expensive versions of these players. Our reaction to Onana for £60m, McTominay for £30-40m, and Phillips for a £7m loan fee + £40m buy clause may have been the same as on here - dismay and laughter. We may have wanted Onana for £40m, McTominay for £20m or less, and Phillips for a modest, no strings attached loan fee to deal with an emergency. Maybe it's still underwhelming, but those numbers also wouldn't really be worthy of panic.

 

 

[Slim]

6 minutes ago, Big Jow said:

For me it’s almost impossible to make a determination on whether I would replace Howe in the summer as there is too many jigsaw pieces missing, which I will never know.

 

I know he isn’t where I’d like him to be tactically during this difficult season. I know I disagree with some of his decision making and approaches and I firmly believe we are out of cups and further down the table than we could be, even with the significant issues. Some of which I believe are his responsibility or he has been a factor in.

 

However, all of things I don’t know is a large deciding factor, for example:

 

1. Does Howe have a fetish for expensive and limited British/PL players? Is he responsible for trying to push through deals for Phillips and McTominay?

2. Is this “breakdown of trust” with Ashworth real and if so, who is to blame and why?

3. What are his long term plans with signings (if he is even responsible for the decision)

4. Why is he appearing stubborn in his approach and what is he expecting to achieve from it?

5. Have previously positive relationships with players like Almiron changed, leading to a lack of form, was the attempted sale Howe or club led?

 

It’s not a straightforward decision with some idiot like Bruce, who you know his glaring limitations but also know he’d be making ridiculously shite decisions in the background. 

 

As far as I see it we have an exceptional talent who has limitations. He did sensational things with Bournemouth and us in his first season and a half. However, he also got relegated with Bournemouth due to his limitations. Will we progress further from here or stall/go backwards? The answer to that is in the 5 questions above.

 

If I knew the answers to the above I’d be willing to give a firm opinion on it, but we’ll likely never know. I disagree with some who have posted who feel you have to be Howe in or Howe out, it’s not as black and white as that.

Botman,Isak,Bruno and Tonali?

[Big Jow]

Just now, timeEd32 said:

 

This is the part that keeps getting left out of some of the freak outs when we're linked with some of these players though (and I'm not saying this is you, I don't know). But there's no reason to think we're interested in expensive versions of these players. Our reaction to Onana for £60m, McTominay for £30-40m, and Phillips for a £7m loan fee + £40m buy clause may have been the same as on here - dismay and laughter. We may have wanted Onana for £40m, McTominay for £20m or less, and Phillips for a modest, no strings attached loan fee to deal with an emergency. Maybe it's still underwhelming, but those numbers also wouldn't really be worthy of panic.

 

 

 

The expensive and crap elements are not one descriptor, they can be separate. I wouldn’t want McTominay or Phillips for any realistic value. I’d consider them both to be crap.

 

Phillips already proving that point elsewhere.

 

If we bought McTominay for £20m, I’d still be gutted. That £20m could provide much better value elsewhere quite easily.

 

It’s the values and the targets themselves that give me cause for concern.

 

That said, we’re talking entirely hypothetically and it could be Nickson driving these links/deals. Which is why I don’t use it to form an opinion, because it’s guesswork.

[Big Jow]

2 minutes ago, Slim said:

Botman,Isak,Bruno and Tonali?

 

I don’t understand your point. Signing 4 players doesn’t necessarily prove that Howe doesn’t have a preference for those type players. We’d never operate as a football club signing only British or PL players.

A bit like the French model we had under Ashley. We predominantly signed those players but would buy others. That model didn’t work and I don’t think this one would either for the reasons previously outlined.

 

Also massively pointing out my post above regarding this not being confirmed or proven, hence it being a question rather than fact.

[Coffee_Johnny]

5 hours ago, greenhill said:

Since that loss against Everton we got only 11 points from 12 league games, that equates to ~35 points in 38 games. Bruce got 44 and 45 points in his two full seasons. Compared to 3 or 4 seasons ago, we got upgrades including Bruno, Trippier, Botman, Burn, Livramento, Gordon, Isak, and Miley featuring heavily during this run, the major subtractions are ASM, Shelvey and Willock (mostly injured). I don’t mean we should sack Howe now, but it is a fact that he is doing worse than Bruce with a much stronger squad at the moment. We are just not as good as we should be right now, even if injuries are accounted. He has to turn things around or questions will be raised.

He’s our second best performing PL manager. You’re using a skewed lens. 

 

 

Edited February 27 by Coffee_Johnny

[Mills and Boon]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

Where are you getting 9th from?

We have the 7th highest wage bill in the league

 

 

I got it from here

 

https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-2023-24-man-utd-liverpool-arsenal

 

Is it bullshit?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, greenhill said:

Since that loss against Everton we got only 11 points from 12 league games, that equates to ~35 points in 38 games. Bruce got 44 and 45 points in his two full seasons. Compared to 3 or 4 seasons ago, we got upgrades including Bruno, Trippier, Botman, Burn, Livramento, Gordon, Isak, and Miley featuring heavily during this run, the major subtractions are ASM, Shelvey and Willock (mostly injured). I don’t mean we should sack Howe now, but it is a fact that he is doing worse than Bruce with a much stronger squad at the moment. We are just not as good as we should be right now, even if injuries are accounted. He has to turn things around or questions will be raised.

 

Exactly what is wrong with some people this like. Use a 12 game period to disregard what's gone the 60-70 games before it.

 

If that 12 games grows to 20-25 or so, I'd start to question him a bit more. Even then I'd happily give him the summer window and start of next season to correct things. He's a lot more credit in the bank to go before we should be doubting his position.

 

Posts like this are ridiculous.

 

 

Edited February 27 by Optimistic Nut