The College Dropout Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Where are you getting 9th from? We have the 7th highest wage bill in the league Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 54 minutes ago, Big Jow said: 1. Does Howe have a fetish for expensive and limited British/PL players? Is he responsible for trying to push through deals for Phillips and McTominay? Why are you potentially judging him or anyone on things that didn't happen? If we assume there's some truth to every link we've heard then many fit the same pattern of PL-based players we've signed. Pope - relegated Gordon - financial problems; falling out with club Tino - relegated; injury Barnes - relegated Hall - financial problems; surplus McTominay - frozen out (at the time) Onana - major financial problems Phillips - not playing and very available The difference with the latter three is we clearly weren't happy with the asking prices. There's probably dozens of others we've inquired about and I'd bet that many of them fall into the category of distressed or vulnerable assets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jow Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 19 minutes ago, timeEd32 said: Why are you potentially judging him or anyone on things that didn't happen? If we assume there's some truth to every link we've heard then many fit the same pattern of PL-based players we've signed. Pope - relegated Gordon - financial problems; falling out with club Tino - relegated; injury Barnes - relegated Hall - financial problems; surplus McTominay - frozen out (at the time) Onana - major financial problems Phillips - not playing and very available The difference with the latter three is we clearly weren't happy with the asking prices. There's probably dozens of others we've inquired about and I'd bet that many of them fall into the category of distressed or vulnerable assets. I’m not judging him on it, which is why I said I’d prefer to know the answers before making assumptions or judgements. I’d be concerned if there was truth to the McTominay and Phillips rumours being led by Howe as they are exactly the opposite of what we need. The wider point is about chasing expensive but poor signings based on PL or British experience. If this was the case I don’t think we’ll progress like we want to because we’ll constantly overpay for players when FFP is already hampering our efforts. Hence why, if it was true, I’d have question marks over Howe in that regard. However, as I said, we don’t and won’t know, so it blurs the lines as to whether it’s a genuine concern and therefore makes it impossible to judge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, Big Jow said: I’m not judging him on it, which is why I said I’d prefer to know the answers before making assumptions or judgements. I’d be concerned if there was truth to the McTominay and Phillips rumours being led by Howe as they are exactly the opposite of what we need. The wider point is about chasing expensive but poor signings based on PL or British experience. If this was the case I don’t think we’ll progress like we want to because we’ll constantly overpay for players when FFP is already hampering our efforts. Hence why, if it was true, I’d have question marks over Howe in that regard. However, as I said, we don’t and won’t know, so it blurs the lines as to whether it’s a genuine concern and therefore makes it impossible to judge. This is the part that keeps getting left out of some of the freak outs when we're linked with some of these players though (and I'm not saying this is you, I don't know). But there's no reason to think we're interested in expensive versions of these players. Our reaction to Onana for £60m, McTominay for £30-40m, and Phillips for a £7m loan fee + £40m buy clause may have been the same as on here - dismay and laughter. We may have wanted Onana for £40m, McTominay for £20m or less, and Phillips for a modest, no strings attached loan fee to deal with an emergency. Maybe it's still underwhelming, but those numbers also wouldn't really be worthy of panic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 6 minutes ago, Big Jow said: For me it’s almost impossible to make a determination on whether I would replace Howe in the summer as there is too many jigsaw pieces missing, which I will never know. I know he isn’t where I’d like him to be tactically during this difficult season. I know I disagree with some of his decision making and approaches and I firmly believe we are out of cups and further down the table than we could be, even with the significant issues. Some of which I believe are his responsibility or he has been a factor in. However, all of things I don’t know is a large deciding factor, for example: 1. Does Howe have a fetish for expensive and limited British/PL players? Is he responsible for trying to push through deals for Phillips and McTominay? 2. Is this “breakdown of trust” with Ashworth real and if so, who is to blame and why? 3. What are his long term plans with signings (if he is even responsible for the decision) 4. Why is he appearing stubborn in his approach and what is he expecting to achieve from it? 5. Have previously positive relationships with players like Almiron changed, leading to a lack of form, was the attempted sale Howe or club led? It’s not a straightforward decision with some idiot like Bruce, who you know his glaring limitations but also know he’d be making ridiculously shite decisions in the background. As far as I see it we have an exceptional talent who has limitations. He did sensational things with Bournemouth and us in his first season and a half. However, he also got relegated with Bournemouth due to his limitations. Will we progress further from here or stall/go backwards? The answer to that is in the 5 questions above. If I knew the answers to the above I’d be willing to give a firm opinion on it, but we’ll likely never know. I disagree with some who have posted who feel you have to be Howe in or Howe out, it’s not as black and white as that. Botman,Isak,Bruno and Tonali? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jow Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Just now, timeEd32 said: This is the part that keeps getting left out of some of the freak outs when we're linked with some of these players though (and I'm not saying this is you, I don't know). But there's no reason to think we're interested in expensive versions of these players. Our reaction to Onana for £60m, McTominay for £30-40m, and Phillips for a £7m loan fee + £40m buy clause may have been the same as on here - dismay and laughter. We may have wanted Onana for £40m, McTominay for £20m or less, and Phillips for a modest, no strings attached loan fee to deal with an emergency. Maybe it's still underwhelming, but those numbers also wouldn't really be worthy of panic. The expensive and crap elements are not one descriptor, they can be separate. I wouldn’t want McTominay or Phillips for any realistic value. I’d consider them both to be crap. Phillips already proving that point elsewhere. If we bought McTominay for £20m, I’d still be gutted. That £20m could provide much better value elsewhere quite easily. It’s the values and the targets themselves that give me cause for concern. That said, we’re talking entirely hypothetically and it could be Nickson driving these links/deals. Which is why I don’t use it to form an opinion, because it’s guesswork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jow Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, Slim said: Botman,Isak,Bruno and Tonali? I don’t understand your point. Signing 4 players doesn’t necessarily prove that Howe doesn’t have a preference for those type players. We’d never operate as a football club signing only British or PL players. A bit like the French model we had under Ashley. We predominantly signed those players but would buy others. That model didn’t work and I don’t think this one would either for the reasons previously outlined. Also massively pointing out my post above regarding this not being confirmed or proven, hence it being a question rather than fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee_Johnny Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 5 hours ago, greenhill said: Since that loss against Everton we got only 11 points from 12 league games, that equates to ~35 points in 38 games. Bruce got 44 and 45 points in his two full seasons. Compared to 3 or 4 seasons ago, we got upgrades including Bruno, Trippier, Botman, Burn, Livramento, Gordon, Isak, and Miley featuring heavily during this run, the major subtractions are ASM, Shelvey and Willock (mostly injured). I don’t mean we should sack Howe now, but it is a fact that he is doing worse than Bruce with a much stronger squad at the moment. We are just not as good as we should be right now, even if injuries are accounted. He has to turn things around or questions will be raised. He’s our second best performing PL manager. You’re using a skewed lens. Edited February 27 by Coffee_Johnny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills and Boon Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, The College Dropout said: Where are you getting 9th from? We have the 7th highest wage bill in the league I got it from here https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-2023-24-man-utd-liverpool-arsenal Is it bullshit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 6 hours ago, greenhill said: Since that loss against Everton we got only 11 points from 12 league games, that equates to ~35 points in 38 games. Bruce got 44 and 45 points in his two full seasons. Compared to 3 or 4 seasons ago, we got upgrades including Bruno, Trippier, Botman, Burn, Livramento, Gordon, Isak, and Miley featuring heavily during this run, the major subtractions are ASM, Shelvey and Willock (mostly injured). I don’t mean we should sack Howe now, but it is a fact that he is doing worse than Bruce with a much stronger squad at the moment. We are just not as good as we should be right now, even if injuries are accounted. He has to turn things around or questions will be raised. Exactly what is wrong with some people this like. Use a 12 game period to disregard what's gone the 60-70 games before it. If that 12 games grows to 20-25 or so, I'd start to question him a bit more. Even then I'd happily give him the summer window and start of next season to correct things. He's a lot more credit in the bank to go before we should be doubting his position. Posts like this are ridiculous. Edited February 27 by Optimistic Nut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Mills and Boon said: I got it from here https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/premier-league-wage-bill-ranking-2023-24-man-utd-liverpool-arsenal Is it bullshit? No idea. Maybe using different accounting periods. Kieran is usually accurate and posted that today based on Arsenal's latest accounts. Most clubs haven't released their accounts for 2023 I think so it will change further. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills and Boon Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Aye he's good the Swiss Ramble fella, which makes me doubt the other sources, but there's a load of them and they're not that old either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BonesJones Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 Assuming this has a lot to do with our midfield just getting bypassed, but that's atrocious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 minute ago, Mills and Boon said: Aye he's good the Swiss Ramble fella, which makes me doubt the other sources, but there's a load of them and they're not that old either There are huge mitigating factors this season, so if we're the 7th highest payers and end up the 9th highest team then I'm not going to feel it's a significant underperformance personally. And I still think with a fair wind we'll have a run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 3 minutes ago, BonesJones said: Assuming this has a lot to do with our midfield just getting bypassed, but that's atrocious. Not just the midfield but also the more forward 3 not being able to press in the same way due to knowing they have to manage the full game as opposed to giving it all for 70 and being subbed. Edited February 27 by madras Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 For comparison, this is before Everton and with Pope. If you extend it through the Forest game, the midpoint of the season, we were 6th in xGA and 1st in xG. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 9 minutes ago, Interpolic said: There are huge mitigating factors this season, so if we're the 7th highest payers and end up the 9th highest team then I'm not going to feel it's a significant underperformance personally. And I still think with a fair wind we'll have a run. I'd be interested to see how many of the 7th highest paid players have actually been available this season. If the likes of Tonali, Pope, Wilson, Willock etc were playing then I reckon we might be sitting higher than 9th right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills and Boon Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 6 minutes ago, timeEd32 said: For comparison, this is before Everton and with Pope. If you extend it through the Forest game, the midpoint of the season, we were 6th in xGA and 1st in xG. The Forest game was when Botman came back and we've not looked right since. Not putting all the blame on him mind but his return and struggle for form has coincided with the midfield being overrun and Burn's tough spell. I've got faith we'll sort it out and finish strong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoSelecta Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 On 26/02/2024 at 12:43, Big Jow said: The freshness of those players coming in, not necessarily their quality, made a huge difference. Give over man, you’re twisting reality to suit your narrative. The quality of the players you bring on in a cup final doesn’t make a difference. Utter twoddle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 18 minutes ago, Interpolic said: There are huge mitigating factors this season, so if we're the 7th highest payers and end up the 9th highest team then I'm not going to feel it's a significant underperformance personally. And I still think with a fair wind we'll have a run. The next closest are Everton & Leicester. We spend a good 30%+ more on wages compared to West Ham, Brighton & Wolves. The defence: Pope, Joe's, midfield gap, lack of midfield legs, opps working out Burn is a weakness and I'm sure other things - have all contributed to what is by far the worst defence in the league atm. No 1 single factor will turn a top 3 defence in the league over a season, to the worst in the league over a 6-12 game period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jow Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 minutes ago, BoSelecta said: Give over man, you’re twisting reality to suit your narrative. The quality of the players you bring on in a cup final doesn’t make a difference. Utter twoddle. That’s just so untrue really. Not sure if you watched the game but the substitutions made changed the flow of the game. That was down to the fresh legs, not the quality, as others have pointed out he bought on youngsters for established quality players. But each to their own. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 28 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: The next closest are Everton & Leicester. We spend a good 30%+ more on wages compared to West Ham, Brighton & Wolves. The defence: Pope, Joe's, midfield gap, lack of midfield legs, opps working out Burn is a weakness and I'm sure other things - have all contributed to what is by far the worst defence in the league atm. No 1 single factor will turn a top 3 defence in the league over a season, to the worst in the league over a 6-12 game period. It won't, but without the initial absentees through injury and suspension, we don't get the subsequent fatigue, soft tissue injuries, exacerbated midfield gap or exposed defence. Edited February 27 by The Prophet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 hours ago, Big Jow said: That’s just so untrue really. Not sure if you watched the game but the substitutions made changed the flow of the game. That was down to the fresh legs, not the quality, as others have pointed out he bought on youngsters for established quality players. But each to their own. Why didn’t Chelsea’s fresh legs work then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Jow Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, Shearergol said: Why didn’t Chelsea’s fresh legs work then? That’s just exaggerating the point really, isn’t it? Not every substitution will work, but Klopp’s did at the weekend and it was clear an increased energy and workrate supported the change in the dynamics of the game. Also noting Chelsea made much fewer substitutions at that stage in the game, but I’m assuming you know that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronson333 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) Make some subs man, we’re not looking good atm. Don’t wait until 60 mins Edited February 27 by Ronson333 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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