Alexander Isak: has a chance to play against Everton (Howe)

[Adam P]

3 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

What? How is that patronising?

 

You know what ... never mind. When Howe plays them together however he wants to it can be discussed then.

 

 

 

Because to make the point succinctly you just have to say how Ba was deployed, rather than saying 'how would you describe that'. Added to harumphing and irritation that this completely resolved question has come up again and that you cant be bothered with it, dont be surprised if it comes over as patronising. I was looking forward to hearing your thoughts, you essentially came back with 'i cant be bothered to engage with you, use the search function and read my posts i've covered it before'. Its a bit snooty mate. 

[Happinesstan]

Just now, JonBez comesock said:

I think Isak will play wide right (sometimes) instead of Almiron 

 

However I can see him ahead of Wilson before the season is out - down the middle 

When Wilson is injured he's a shoe-in. But it will affect how we play. Essentially we will be returning to what we currently play, but with Isak instead of Wilson.

[Happinesstan]

Just now, Adam P said:

 

Because to make the point succinctly you just have to say how Ba was deployed, rather than saying 'how would you describe that'. Added to harumphing and irritation that this completely resolved question has come up again and that you cant be bothered with it, dont be surprised if it comes over as patronising. I was looking forward to hearing your thoughts, you essentially came back with 'i cant be bothered to engage with you, use the search function and read my posts i've covered it before'. Its a bit snooty mate. 

TBF, how Isak will play, has been described on numerous occasions.

[Adam P]

I've only been following the thread this week. 

[HaydnNUFC]

I think the plan for when Wilson is fit from Howe is to play the right sided attacking player, Isak in this case, more in and around the right half space more than out wide. Think that's probably where he wanted Maddison playing had we signed him. 

[KaKa]

2 minutes ago, Adam P said:

 

Because to make the point succinctly you just have to say how Ba was deployed, rather than saying 'how would you describe that'. Added to harumphing and irritation that this completely resolved question has come up again and that you cant be bothered with it, dont be surprised if it comes over as patronising. I was looking forward to hearing your thoughts, you essentially came back with 'i cant be bothered to engage with you, use the search function and read my posts i've covered it before'. Its a bit snooty mate. 

 

It wasn't directed at you personally. The conversation has just been had a few times now.

 

I just think some people don't think he can be played as a wide forward and others disagree, and it's been explained by a few different people about how it would work, but others aren't convinced, and so I don't know where else to go with the whole thing.

 

When Howe has everyone available and decides to play them together we'll see how he does it. He's already come out and said he sees them playing together and so we will see it at some point.

[The Prophet]

29 minutes ago, KaKa said:

Can I ask a question ...

 

When Demba Ba was playing on the left side for us, how would people describe that position he was playing?

 

He was an inside forward, but it did affect his goal return.

[KaKa]

16 minutes ago, Adam P said:

I've only been following the thread this week. 

 

Ah, so you've likely missed a lot of the discussions on this.

 

@HaydnNUFC has just made a good point about how we might have used Maddison if we signed him. Interestingly enough if you watched Maddison last night he started on the right side, but was far more central most of the match, playing off Vardy. 

 

Real Sociedad used a diamond formation last season, where Isak was the right sided striker and so a lot of his work was done in that right side half space, which would not be too dissimilar to how he would play as a right side forward if we used him there. In that setup, the opposition full back is covered by the midfield shifting over defensively, so that the RCM supports his full back on that right side, and so the right sided forward (Isak) could then stay high up the pitch. A similar defensive approach would have to be employed for us defensively to keep him forward so he's not tracking back with full backs, if we use him as a wide man.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2022 by KaKa

[Ikon]

Isak didn’t come here to play wide. 

[Happinesstan]

3 minutes ago, Ikon said:

Isak didn’t come here to play wide. 

Then he better get his arse in the box then.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, The Prophet said:

 

He was an inside forward, but it did affect his goal return.

 

Yes, the point is that he wasn't hugging the touchline playing as a winger.

 

His goal return was affected, yes, but that was still Pardew ball. It was nowhere near the type of football we are playing under Howe generally as a team, and so I would expect the quality and quantity of chances to be better, which would mean a better goal return from those areas.

[The Prophet]

Just now, Ikon said:

Isak didn’t come here to play wide. 

 

I totally understand what folk are saying regard fluidity in the system.

 

That said, last season Isak played in a two up top and it affected his goal return. Ba has been cited as an example, another forward who's goal return was affected by a change in position.

 

Isak seems to naturally drift into the channels and he's great at picking up those pockets of space between the centre back and the full back. He also has excellent feet and can beat a man, but that doesn't mean he'll necessarily make a decent inside forward.

 

I'm all for experimentation and giving things a go but it reminds of when fans discuss playing Colo or Schar in midfield. You don't pay £60 million quid for a footballer to not play him in his best position.

[KaKa]

5 minutes ago, Ikon said:

Isak didn’t come here to play wide. 

 

 

And this is why I find the whole discussion tiring at this point.

 

You try to go into the details of it and have a proper discussion and it gets diluted to him being shunted out wide.

 

Lawd have mercy!

[HaydnNUFC]

His goal on Wednesday came from finding space in a channel in the right half space. He'll play there when Wilson is fit, which won't be too often. He'll be our number 9 most of the season. Lovely jubbly.

[relámpago blanco]

I personally think we should play him in nets if Pope gets Injured now Dubravka has gone. 

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

Yes, the point is that he wasn't hugging the touchline playing as a winger.

 

His goal return was affected, yes, but that was still Pardew ball. It was nowhere near the type of football we are playing under Howe generally as a team, and so I would expect the quality and quantity of chances to be better, which would mean a better goal return from those areas.

Hs goal return was affected by the choice of CF. Cisse is a goal poacher not the type to bring in the IFs.

[KaKa]

Just now, Happinesstan said:

Hs goal return was affected by the choice of CF. Cisse is a goal poacher not the type to bring in the IFs.

 

That is another aspect to it as well. I agree.

[Happinesstan]

2 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

 

I totally understand what folk are saying regard fluidity in the system.

 

That said, last season Isak played in a two up top and it affected his goal return. Ba has been cited as an example, another forward who's goal return was affected by a change in position.

 

Isak seems to naturally drift into the channels and he's great at picking up those pockets of space between the centre back and the full back. He also has excellent feet and can beat a man, but that doesn't mean he'll necessarily make a decent inside forward.

 

I'm all for experimentation and giving things a go but it reminds of when fans discuss playing Colo or Schar in midfield. You don't pay £60 million quid for a footballer to not play him in his best position.

He's also not fully developed yet. Had Thierry Henry ever played as a striker before Wenger got his hands on him. I genuinely don't know he answer but I assume very little.

[Happinesstan]

2 minutes ago, relámpago blanco said:

I personally think we should play him in nets if Pope gets Injured now Dubravka has gone. 

With the instruction to get into the box? I'm all for it. We'll defend when we decide to let them have the bal.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, Happinesstan said:

He's also not fully developed yet. Had Thierry Henry ever played as a striker before Wenger got his hands on him. I genuinely don't know he answer but I assume very little.

 

I don't believe he had. Even Henry questioned the change when Wenger suggested it. He thought he wasn't good enough in front of goal.

[Rafalove]

7 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

His goal on Wednesday came from finding space in a channel in the right half space. He'll play there when Wilson is fit, which won't be too often. He'll be our number 9 most of the season. Lovely jubbly.

 

 

I agree with this. It’s also about what our best team is and a front three of Maxi, Wilson and Isak, is the best front three we have.

[Ikon]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

 

And this is why I find the whole discussion tiring at this point.

 

You try to go into the details of it and have a proper discussion and it gets diluted to him being shunted out wide.

 

Lawd have mercy!

Typical blah kaka blah blah as usual. I didn’t say anything about him not playing with Wilson! I just said that he won’t play wide. So I’m not sure why you started babbling. I wasn’t questioning anyones post in particular to begin with. All I was saying is that he didn’t come here to play wide or even close to your typical wide man. He might play slightly to the side of a CF or off him or similar in something more of a two. But not wide with any real defensive responsibilities whatsoever like your typical wide forward. He’s a star signing for a ton of money. It’s only a question of time before Wilson is on the bench even when fit. 
 

You have a typical behaviour to defend things when there is no reason to. But you choose to read things that way too often I guess. I didn’t quote you. All I said is that he didn’t come here to play the wide man role. Lord have mercy!

[KaKa]

7 minutes ago, Ikon said:

Typical blah kaka blah blah as usual. I didn’t say anything about him not playing with Wilson! I just said that he won’t play wide. So I’m not sure why you started babbling. I wasn’t questioning anyones post in particular to begin with. All I was saying is that he didn’t come here to play wide or even close to your typical wide man. He might play slightly to the side of a CF or off him or similar in something more of a two. But not wide with any real defensive responsibilities whatsoever like your typical wide forward. He’s a star signing for a ton of money. It’s only a question of time before Wilson is on the bench even when fit. 
 

You have a typical behaviour to defend things when there is no reason to. But you choose to read things that way too often I guess. I didn’t quote you. All I said is that he didn’t come here to play the wide man role. Lord have mercy!

 

 fair enough man.

 

Judging by what you said about his positioning and defensive responsibilities you definitely weren't responding to my post as I covered all that, so yeah, fair play 

[Conjo]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

I don't believe he had. Even Henry questioned the change when Wenger suggested it. He thought he wasn't good enough in front of goal.

 

Henry didn't come to Arsenal under the same premise though. Wenger had coached Henry at Clairefontaine and thought he was a striker even back then. Henry was then brought in on the back of a disappointing spell at Juve where he had not performed well as LWB/LCM/LW.

 

Isak is coming in as our record signing, on the back of doing well as a striker his entire career. If he ends up not performing well as a striker it would make more sense to try him elsewhere at a later stage, but why try to give him a new unfamiliar role now?

 

It's easy to say position doesn't matter it's how he's utilized in that position, but by putting him out wide and not asking him to do the defensive work Almiron does, we will have to give up defensive cover elsewhere, in addition to having less guarantees that his new role will work well while we know what he can do as a striker. If we ask him to do Alimiron work, he'll have way less energy to do the offsensive stuff we bought him to do in the first place.

 

I just don't see why Howe would revamp our whole play style that has worked so well just to accommodate one player. Imagine how great it would be to have the option of putting Wilson on for Isak or vice versa during a game? We've been crying out for a bench with options. Now that we have a chance to have that, people want to shoehorn our perceived best players into the starting line-up while maintaining an uninspiring bench?

 

 

[The Prophet]