Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[Keegans Export]

29 minutes ago, Pixelphish said:

This before or after they've told the PL and the EFL the rules dont apply because they werent in their leagues for the full timeframe?

All they got away with was not having to produce a business plan to the EFL, that ruling didn't absolve them of any potential PSR breaches.

 

 

Edited March 8 by Keegans Export

[Terraloon]

On 06/03/2024 at 06:30, FloydianMag said:

Governing bodies, PL, UEFA’, and FIFA are involving themselves in clubs commercial activities and on every level that is wrong and should be challenged. As you say there is no other sector would this be tolerated.

 

FFP restricts investment from owners and FMV restricts clubs from increasing revenue streams unless a governing body agrees it’s fair, what the fuck!!

As to how a regulator will improve things is beyond me because you can be sure they will add more string controls into play.

 

Yet so many think it’s a good KSE but then again so many wanted VAR

[Terraloon]

22 hours ago, Numbers said:

Its all going to come crashing down, noise is increasing on a daily basis on how fucked up all this is.

 

Surely will be challenged in court very soon.

 

 

Won’t be in the courts it will be  by the clubs themselves that changes come about

[FloydianMag]

1 minute ago, Terraloon said:

Won’t be in the courts it will be  by the clubs themselves that changes come about

No it wont be in the courts…………..and a club (City) are understood to have threatened legal action in  CAT more than likely.

 

https://www.catribunal.org.uk

[madras]

Say the unthinkable happens and Man City are bang to rights and they get relegated, would their sponsorships etc have to show FMV as in being in line with the Championship and reflecting that they only have such high sponsorships because of their frauds ?

 

 

Also should they be called Mancheater City or Manchester Cheaty ?

 

 

Edited March 9 by madras

[Nucasol]

13 minutes ago, madras said:

 should they he called Mancheater City or Manchester Cheaty ?

Why do I hear Guillem Balague’s voice when reading this in my head?

[madras]

3 minutes ago, Nucasol said:

Why do I hear Guillem Balague’s voice when reading this in my head?

Our accents are subtley different.

 

 

Edited March 9 by madras

[FloydianMag]

Leicester City, Imteresting, not being a lawyer not sure what it means, looks like they won their case. One of the comments to the tweet pointed out how easy it was for the legals to rip the rules apart…..who knows🤷‍♂️

 

https://x.com/nickdemarco_/status/1766396152725819692?s=61&t=Yt8DTJJ-7Jh_ndgpdGSFKQ

 

 

 

Edited March 9 by FloydianMag

[Abacus]

Looking forward to the squad lists being released next season.

 

Just to be competitive, anyone with less than 11 first team players, three lawyers and two forensic accountants minimum is a certainty for relegation.

[Keegans Export]

7 minutes ago, FloydianMag said:

Leicester City, Imteresting, not being a lawyer not sure what it means, looks like they won their case. One of the comments to the tweet pointed out how easy it was for the legals to rip the rules apart…..who knows🤷‍♂️

 

https://x.com/nickdemarco_/status/1766396152725819692?s=61&t=Yt8DTJJ-7Jh_ndgpdGSFKQ

 

What they got away with was having to produce a business plan to show how they intend to not breach the PSR on the basis that they don't have to produce their accounts until the end of the month. They're still on the hook for PSR/FFP breaches.

[FloydianMag]

5 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

What they got away with was having to produce a business plan to show how they intend to not breach the PSR on the basis that they don't have to produce their accounts until the end of the month. They're still on the hook for PSR/FFP breaches.

I’m sure the legals would be able to rip up the PSR/FMV/FFP rules apart to…….time will tell.

[gjohnson]

2 hours ago, madras said:

Say the unthinkable happens and Man City are bang to rights and they get relegated, would their sponsorships etc have to show FMV as in being in line with the Championship and reflecting that they only have such high sponsorships because of their frauds ?

 

 

Also should they be called Mancheater City or Manchester Cheaty ?

 

 

 

In a truly fair world this would happen....they would have never got their current sponsorships under the new rules. But they have them now, and will no doubt spend the next 10 years tying the PL up in legal knots so they never actually get found guilty of anything that an insignificant fine won't make go away.

[Keegans Export]

4 minutes ago, FloydianMag said:

I’m sure the legals would be able to rip up the PSR/FMV/FFP rules apart to…….time will tell.

 

Well there's a chance both Everton and Forest could be relegated as a result of those rules so if it's as easy as that I imagine we'll find out before the end of the summer

[gjohnson]

6 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

 

Well there's a chance both Everton and Forest could be relegated as a result of those rules so if it's as easy as that I imagine we'll find out before the end of the summer

Doubt it...any half competent legal team could tie this up for at least a year

[gjohnson]

Just now, gjohnson said:

Doubt it...any half competent legal team could tie this up for at least a year

Every solicitor I've ever known takes at least 6 weeks to even write a letter acknowledging anything, let alone actually doing something

[Abacus]

20 hours ago, Terraloon said:

Won’t be in the courts it will be  by the clubs themselves that changes come about

 

Please don't take it personally when I say this, because so far I think you're a good poster and a good addition to the forum. It's always good to hear the views of rival fans even (and especially if) it conflicts with what you already think.

 

But, I was going to say that there's no way the clubs themselves will change the rules, too many vested interests in preserving the status quo. 

 

And also, that Chelsea are most at blame for creating this whole fandango with ridiculous spending in the first place. That said, I'm going to row back on this a bit. It's not unlike Jack Walker and Blackburn, it was just the scale of it in your case, and now Man City's.

 

Anyway, to me your fans have a huge amount of legitimate credit for objecting so strongly to the ESL and being a big reason for why that whole farce collapsed.

 

And if we're being truthful, nobody wants to buy the league title but wants to earn it in the right way instead.

 

The minute it became a global sport where money talked, though, this was the inevitable conclusion and I just don't know what the fair solution is. Because let's say FFP collapses under legal challenge - well, I'm not sure I'd like the alternative either.

 

Believe it or not, most of us would love to have our 15 minutes in the sun with the world's best players etc. But I also think genuine fans would feel in their gut that something wasn't right after a while, and disengage when it's all about global revenue streams etc. 

 

Why do we support Newcastle? As a great man once said

 

What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It's not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It's the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city.

 

 

Edited March 9 by Abacus

[geordiesteve710]

On 08/03/2024 at 12:20, Abacus said:

Yeah, too many vested interests. You'd need to get rid of agents in their current roles for a start and image rights etc, but it's an interesting Bosman type argument re player registrations for both players and to the real "value" of a transfer to selling and buying clubs, which will of course be completely different from club to club.

 

It's why proving FMV is a mess when there wasn't FMV in the first place.

 

This is the best example I have seen of why the while concept of "value" is a complete misnomer to begin with when it comes to players. I have added to it below.

 

The "value" of a player is hard to define as players have (at least) two values at any time, the value to a potential buyer -lets call this value A and value to the club he is registered to (i.e. the potential seller) value B in this scenario. A transfer will only happen when circumstances dictate that value A exceeds, or at least reaches, value B and the clubs then come to a figure that is acceptable to both. There are several variables to this. Off the top of my head you'd have:

 

- how good the player is

- how reliable is his temperament

- injury record

- length remaining on contract

- age and associated potential for inprovement/ resale value

- do they qualify as homegrown for uefa rules?

- any international caps? If so, what nation and how good are they?

- what are his personal circumstances (eg is he settled where he lives or on the other hand agitating for a move)

- what strength in depth does the club (buying or selling) have in that position?

- where is the club on the table (eg pushing for Europe/fighting relegation or comfortably midtable

- ironically, another consideration would now be what is the club's FFP position? Eg do they need to sell?  How much headroom does the buyer have to splash out?

- is the buyer needing to retain funds to revamp the squad in several areas or is this the only signing they will make in a window?

 

- another consideration when selling to clubs in Saudi or other countries with no FFP restrictions (like we did with ASM) then it is fairly well understood that the player will be hugely remunerated for making that move, already pricing other potential suitors out of even making a move and reducing the leverage a selling would theorerically have to demand a large fee in an arms-length transaction with a value-driven buyer.

 

Footballer transfers are rare in occurence (compared to say people going to the shop and buying a loaf of bread) so there is a limited sample to benchmark against. Given the vast array of variables how do you reliably/accurately demonstrate what the hypothetical  FMV of a transfer would be?

 

I can understand it for sponsorships and commercial deals (even if I don't agree) but trying to apply fmv to player transfers is a fools errand.

[Keegans Export]

18 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

Doubt it...any half competent legal team could tie this up for at least a year

 

As I say, we'll know by the end of the summer.

 

If Everton get another deduction, get relegated and start next season in the Championship, we'll know it isn't quite as simple as "tie them up in court" or "bring a CAT case"

[Abacus]

2 minutes ago, geordiesteve710 said:

 

This is the best example I have seen of why the while concept of "value" is a complete misnomer to begin with when it comes to players. I have added to it below.

 

The "value" of a player is hard to define as players have (at least) two values at any time, the value to a potential buyer -lets call this value A and value to the club he is registered to (i.e. the potential seller) value B in this scenario. A transfer will only happen when circumstances dictate that value A exceeds, or at least reaches, value B and the clubs then come to a figure that is acceptable to both. There are several variables to this. Off the top of my head you'd have:

 

- how good the player is

- how reliable is his temperament

- injury record

- length remaining on contract

- age and associated potential for inprovement/ resale value

- do they qualify as homegrown for uefa rules?

- any international caps? If so, what nation and how good are they?

- what are his personal circumstances (eg is he settled where he lives or on the other hand agitating for a move)

- what strength in depth does the club (buying or selling) have in that position?

- where is the club on the table (eg pushing for Europe/fighting relegation or comfortably midtable

- ironically, another consideration would now be what is the club's FFP position? Eg do they need to sell?  How much headroom does the buyer have to splash out?

- is the buyer needing to retain funds to revamp the squad in several areas or is this the only signing they will make in a window?

 

- another consideration when selling to clubs in Saudi or other countries with no FFP restrictions (like we did with ASM) then it is fairly well understood that the player will be hugely remunerated for making that move, already pricing other potential suitors out of even making a move and reducing the leverage a selling would theorerically have to demand a large fee in an arms-length transaction with a value-driven buyer.

 

Footballer transfers are rare in occurence (compared to say people going to the shop and buying a loaf of bread) so there is a limited sample to benchmark against. Given the vast array of variables how do you reliably/accurately demonstrate what the hypothetical  FMV of a transfer would be?

 

I can understand it for sponsorships and commercial deals (even if I don't agree) but trying to apply fmv to player transfers is a fools errand.

Couldn't agree more. Though, you could argue that similar applies to sponsorships as well, just for different reasons, if one were inclined to waste an idle spring Saturday in such minor quibbling to what was an excellent post.

[et tu brute]

22 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

 

As I say, we'll know by the end of the summer.

 

If Everton get another deduction, get relegated and start next season in the Championship, we'll know it isn't quite as simple as "tie them up in court" or "bring a CAT case"

Depends if they go to court, which would take more than the summer to conclude imo 

[gjohnson]

23 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

Depends if they go to court, which would take more than the summer to conclude imo 

Just what i was trying to say....any court action will take years. There's no way this will be sorted by summer

[gjohnson]

48 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

 

As I say, we'll know by the end of the summer.

 

If Everton get another deduction, get relegated and start next season in the Championship, we'll know it isn't quite as simple as "tie them up in court" or "bring a CAT case"

No way will this be done by summer. 

[Keegans Export]

24 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

Depends if they go to court, which would take more than the summer to conclude imo 

 

Just now, gjohnson said:

Just what i was trying to say....any court action will take years. There's no way this will be sorted by summer

 

Correct, but if they don't even try to take them to court then we'll know that FFP/PSR is going to be a tough nut to crack

[nufcnick]

5 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

 

 

Correct, but if they don't even try to take them to court then we'll know that FFP/PSR is going to be a tough nut to crack

It’s not that it’s a tough nut to crack, it’s that teams knowingly and willingly sign up to abide by the FFP/P&S rules at the start of every season, it’s kind of hard to go to a court and convince a judge that something isn’t fair when you willingly sign up to it every single year 

[Stifler]

Transfer levy for Premier League clubs to be voted on Monday in order to pay the EFL. Eventually Premier League clubs would need to pay 7% of any transfer fee when buying from any club outside of the EFL.