Sandro Tonali

[nufc123]

Just now, toonfanman said:

When was moved out of LB which allowed Hall to flourish and now the teams perfoming much better?

Was thinking more of...we were winning but we all knew/saw it was not perfect.

[Gawalls]

4 minutes ago, nufc123 said:

Was thinking more of...we were winning but we all knew/saw it was not perfect.

Nobody complained (much) when we finished in top 4 with burn playing LB. He waited a long time until burn had declined a lot before giving Lewis Hall a run of games. 

[et tu brute]

17 minutes ago, Heron said:

But he did, and we won the next game. So was Howe wrong?

We did, but we would have with Tonali being there also. Tonali was excellent in both games he came on and helped change massively the game on Sunday. 

[nufc123]

7 minutes ago, Gawalls said:

Nobody complained (much) when we finished in top 4 with burn playing LB. He waited a long time until burn had declined a lot before giving Lewis Hall a run of games. 

I was not thinking about Hall at all. The point was, it doesnt have to be perfect (or cant get better re Burn) just because we are winning.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 22:58 by nufc123

[et tu brute]

6 minutes ago, Gawalls said:

Nobody complained (much) when we finished in top 4 with burn playing LB. He waited a long time until burn had declined a lot before giving Lewis Hall a run of games. 

I thought you spat your dummy out

[Gawalls]

8 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

I thought you spat your dummy out

I found it again

[alexf]

Yeah was just about it say. People bringing up the stats with all these guys playing together are missing the obvious. It's not Longstaff that's turned our form, it's Willock being back close to something like his 22/23 self. 

He was the missing legs in that midfield. 

 

I know we haven't seen it yet but a Tonali, Bruno, Willock midfield will be better than when we saw Tonali, Bruno Joelinton. Especially if Tonali plays the deeper role instead of the Longstaff role as he has recently. 

 

A midfield of Joelinton, Bruno and Longstaff struggles just as much as if you swap in Tonali  but you swap big Joe for Little Joe and put the big man in the wing instead and you get the success that we have enjoyed in recent games. 

 

Eddie knows what he's doing. He's bedding Tonali in and we are starting to see the benefits. His recent appearances have been strong and the whole team is functioning better. 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 23:42 by alexf

[Heron]

8 hours ago, Gawalls said:

Nobody complained (much) when we finished in top 4 with burn playing LB. He waited a long time until burn had declined a lot before giving Lewis Hall a run of games. 

Rightly so. Hall wasn't ready defensively.

[Heron]

8 hours ago, et tu brute said:

We did, but we would have with Tonali being there also. Tonali was excellent in both games he came on and helped change massively the game on Sunday. 

We may have done. We may also not have done. We won't ever know.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:43 by Heron

[Heron]

10 hours ago, nufc123 said:

I was not thinking about Hall at all. The point was, it doesnt have to be perfect (or cant get better re Burn) just because we are winning.

 

 

 

That's right, but at present our league position is very precarious ans Howe is doing what is getting him results AND performances. Folk complaining that certain stats and facts and figures and what not are being used simply to shoe-horn a better player in the side that presently - we're trying to understand how he best fits or the system that best fits him.

 

Why would we continue down that though when we are say 12th and not getting results?

 

Folk are just desperate to have the better player in and not the best team (for now) purely cause they don't like/rate Longstaff and do like/rate Tonali and rightly - folknare saying "we need points irrespective of which players play". We have been finding said points by starting the whole 11s we have been recently.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 09:28 by Heron

[Heron]

8 hours ago, alexf said:

Yeah was just about it say. People bringing up the stats with all these guys playing together are missing the obvious. It's not Longstaff that's turned our form, it's Willock being back close to something like his 22/23 self. 

He was the missing legs in that midfield. 

 

I know we haven't seen it yet but a Tonali, Bruno, Willock midfield will be better than when we saw Tonali, Bruno Joelinton. Especially if Tonali plays the deeper role instead of the Longstaff role as he has recently. 

 

A midfield of Joelinton, Bruno and Longstaff struggles just as much as if you swap in Tonali  but you swap big Joe for Little Joe and put the big man in the wing instead and you get the success that we have enjoyed in recent games. 

 

Eddie knows what he's doing. He's bedding Tonali in and we are starting to see the benefits. His recent appearances have been strong and the whole team is functioning better. 

 

 

 

We will see if you're right when that time comes rhay they're utilised in such a way. You most likely will be. However, the fact Longstaff has started games and we have got results and you seemingly think this is folk choosing to ignore some sort of obvious that is theoretical and not statistically based isn't right.

 

Howe, at a time when we were 12th(ish) has based his side selection on what has worked previously and has been proven correct. Now folk want to have Tonali in the side because he scored in a different competition, playing in a different system and in a different side just because they like him more as a player.

 

You are right though - Howe knows what he is doing - and he is making the difficult decision some folk don't like and keeping "local clogger" Sean Longstaff in the first 11 over "Prime Iniesta" because actually that's what's got him results recently and ultimately more time when some folk were edging towards his sacking in recent weeks (online). Let's face it "Prime Iniesta" can make a better impact when he comes on too that can change a game.

 

Can guarantee folk would be happy to use the same stats in Tonalis favour if the shoe were on the other foot. They simply want to call them nonsense cause it doesn’t suit their "Longstaff is shite" agenda.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 08:01 by Heron

[TRon]

16 hours ago, Gawalls said:

I’m genuinely glad we have Howe making these decisions (if he is)

 

If we got a £50m offer for Longstaff we would take it regardless of what Howe thought. Not because we want to sell Longstaff, just no other way to operate under current PSR restrictions.

[nufc123]

16 hours ago, Geogaddi said:

I really hope so as he's clearly an excellent footballer but aside from Villa at home last season nothing we have seen so far demonstrates we are a better team when him and Bruno start together .

Did fine/good against Liverpool, Villa, PSG, City, Everton, Brighton (this season). Almost half of Tonalis games that. We have very little data on Tonali.

[nufc123]

4 hours ago, Heron said:

That's right, but at present our league position is very precarious ans Howe is doing what is getting him results AND performances. Folk complaining that certain stats and facts and figures and what not are being used simply to shoe-horn a better player in the side that presently - we're trying to understand how he best fits or the system that best fits him.

 

Why would we continue down that though when we are say 12th and not getting results?

 

Folk are just desperate to have the better player in and not the best team (for now) purely cause they don't like/rate Longstaff and do like/rate Tonali and rightly - folknare saying "we need points irrespective of which players play". We have been finding said points by starting the whole 11s we have been recently.

 

 

 

I know. If we leave Longstaff out of the discussion, my point was more we cant have Tonali sitting on the bench (and yes I know you said we can )

[James]

I think the situation is simple, we were struggling for results and then the 22/23 attack got on the pitch together at Chelsea and suddenly the team improved massively due to tactical familiarity and chemistry between players.

 

From that moment I was hoping we’d revert back to a team more like this (+ Gordon) and we did and have won three straight games.

 

it seems that we have rediscovered some form and to improve the team we have to iterate, but iterate slowly and that means finding the suitable moment to swap players back in. Tonali will get his moment but I trust Howe to choose the right moment.

[alexf]

11 hours ago, Heron said:

We will see if you're right when that time comes rhay they're utilised in such a way. You most likely will be. However, the fact Longstaff has started games and we have got results and you seemingly think this is folk choosing to ignore some sort of obvious that is theoretical and not statistically based isn't right.

 

Howe, at a time when we were 12th(ish) has based his side selection on what has worked previously and has been proven correct. Now folk want to have Tonali in the side because he scored in a different competition, playing in a different system and in a different side just because they like him more as a player.

 

You are right though - Howe knows what he is doing - and he is making the difficult decision some folk don't like and keeping "local clogger" Sean Longstaff in the first 11 over "Prime Iniesta" because actually that's what's got him results recently and ultimately more time when some folk were edging towards his sacking in recent weeks (online). Let's face it "Prime Iniesta" can make a better impact when he comes on too that can change a game.

 

Can guarantee folk would be happy to use the same stats in Tonalis favour if the shoe were on the other foot. They simply want to call them nonsense cause it doesn’t suit their "Longstaff is shite" agenda.

 

 

 

 

See, I take your points. But when you start using language like "local clogger" and "Prime iniesta" and putting them in quotation marks, even though I didn't remember seeing people using these terms to describe the players? It feels unnecessary.

 

There is plenty of evidence of Longstaff playing for long spells in the side and looking poor. Yes he's in better form at the moment and plays a very important and unique role within that current midfield 3. 

 

But he is helped by having the right players around him (Willock). Just as much as Tonali would be I feel if he plays.

 

Also Longstaff looks pretty useless in that deeper role when he's asked to do so. In the same way I don't think Tonali is suited to the Longstaff right side runner role either. He likes to get on the ball more like Bruno and seems more suited to that role. So already comparing them like for like seems silly.

 

It's fine to be happy with current results and to keep the starting 11 as is. But we have seen with our own eyes Longstaff now for what 6 years? People know his strengths and limitations. It's only natural that when we sign an Italian international with a strong reputation for £50m+,  people will be more excited to see him in the side. Especially as he's now starting to acclimatise to the league it seems and is begining to show that expected ability.

[Heron]

15 minutes ago, alexf said:

 

See, I take your points. But when you start using language like "local clogger" and "Prime iniesta" and putting them in quotation marks, even though I didn't remember seeing people using these terms to describe the players? It feels unnecessary.

 

There is plenty of evidence of Longstaff playing for long spells in the side and looking poor. Yes he's in better form at the moment and plays a very important and unique role within that current midfield 3. 

 

But he is helped by having the right players around him (Willock). Just as much as Tonali would be I feel if he plays.

 

Also Longstaff looks pretty useless in that deeper role when he's asked to do so. In the same way I don't think Tonali is suited to the Longstaff right side runner role either. He likes to get on the ball more like Bruno and seems more suited to that role. So already comparing them like for like seems silly.

 

It's fine to be happy with current results and to keep the starting 11 as is. But we have seen with our own eyes Longstaff now for what 6 years? People know his strengths and limitations. It's only natural that when we sign an Italian international with a strong reputation for £50m+,  people will be more excited to see him in the side. Especially as he's now starting to acclimatise to the league it seems and is begining to show that expected ability.

It's the attitude that some folk semeingly take to both players.

 

We are winning games and playing well to a man. So no need to change it unless it's strategical. It's that simple.

 

We aren't in a position to do so at present. So I'd prefer we stick with getting results than playing a player to appease a cross section of fans.

 

When Tonali Starts, we perform and we get a result Tonali will remain. Of that I am sure. Howe knows better than any person on here - myself included.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 20:25 by Heron

[alexf]

Yeah I agree, we should keep what's working and it means we have a strong bench. Same logic applies for Barnes, he's a great impact player to bring it. 

 

I was just trying to say I understand why there might be some noise from various people wanting to see more of Tonali, but it's only natural where there is unknown potential, that we all hope he eventually will fulfill.  Only heightened by the delay to see him play regularly for a year.

 

But as long as the player isn't kicking up a fuss then there is no need to rush whilst results stay strong. And he certainly shouldn't kick up a fuss after getting himself banned for a year.

[Heron]

15 minutes ago, alexf said:

Yeah I agree, we should keep what's working and it means we have a strong bench. Same logic applies for Barnes, he's a great impact player to bring it. 

 

I was just trying to say I understand why there might be some noise from various people wanting to see more of Tonali, but it's only natural where there is unknown potential, that we all hope he eventually will fulfill.  Only heightened by the delay to see him play regularly for a year.

 

But as long as the player isn't kicking up a fuss then there is no need to rush whilst results stay strong. And he certainly shouldn't kick up a fuss after getting himself banned for a year.

 Absolutely.

 

FWIW I agree with much you've said. I just get frustrated that folk seem desperate to make the most of Longstaffs limitations but unwilling to praise his abilities. It is okay to be wrong or to change your opinion, just as I have with Hall (in that thread).

 

Either way, if we keep winning then I am happy. FWI(also)W I actually love Tonali - I was singing his song in Bergamo airport this morning

 

 

Edited Sunday at 20:43 by Heron

[Ginola14]

from what I've seen he's been anonymous for Italy tonight, so far

[Heron]

47 minutes ago, Ginola14 said:

from what I've seen he's been anonymous for Italy tonight, so far

 

Seems a bit harsh tbh.

 

Italy seem to lack from having a real quality striker and a focal point for me. Tonali wasn't so much 'anonymous' it was more that Italy lacked direction. It was back and sideways and no one looking to commit defenders. Retegui did little up top versus the likes of Thuram who was quite the opposite for France and was a bit of a handful.

 

Tonali was the man linking passes from defence to the more attacking members of midfield for the most part but that was the extent of their game.

 

 

Edited Sunday at 22:00 by Heron

[Myleftboot]

Played the full 90 again.