St James' Park

[Yorkie]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

13 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

I'm saying that Leazes Terrace provides housing and the Council is never going to approve a scheme which removes that housing. Ownership doesn't come into it, just the use.

 

Do you know that that's the case? Just don't know why it wouldn't be allowed. Newcastle has more student accommodation in the city centre than it needs

 

If that's actually true and there is genuinely a surplus of housing in the city then I'll happily stand corrected. I don't know the data, I'm making assumptions based on the national situation. 

[madras]

Just now, Yorkie said:

 

Sure, but it's still a residential use, though; if that accommodation isn't there to house students then the pressure is transferred onto the rest of the housing stock.

Yeah and look at what Man City's owners done in Manchester. Say for example there's accom for 200 students in there. Then our owners sort accom for them in order to free up usage of that side of Leazes Terrace, probably a small price to pay. Some of it is already office use so it isn't residential only

[Whitley mag]

Need to invest in some heater lamps for the boulevard mind, as Leazes Terrace will never see the sun again once we’re finished with this new stand.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Whitley mag

[madras]

Just now, Whitley mag said:

Need to invest in some heater lamps for the boulevard mind, as Leazes Terrace will never see the sun again

once we’re finished with this new stand.

I'd be as concerned with where those fans go if there needs to he a complete demolition  and rebuild of the East Stand.

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, Yorkie said:

 

If that's actually true and there is genuinely a surplus of housing in the city then I'll happily stand corrected. I don't know the data, I'm making assumptions based on the national situation. 

 

Student accommodation and housing are a bit different. I don't know enough about Leazes Terrace to say what it's classed as or what would need to happen to change it to a business property. I remember Ponsaeleus mentioning it a while ago as a possibility though. But yeah, Newcastle definitely has far more student accommodation than it needs. Heaton and Jesmond are winding down their student populations and buy to let properties in those areas are going up for sale partly for that reason.

[Bondedcrown]

12 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Student accommodation and housing are a bit different. I don't know enough about Leazes Terrace to say what it's classed as or what would need to happen to change it to a business property. I remember Ponsaeleus mentioning it a while ago as a possibility though. But yeah, Newcastle definitely has far more student accommodation than it needs. Heaton and Jesmond are winding down their student populations and buy to let properties in those areas are going up for sale partly for that reason.

It's about its' listed building status not the housing ?

[El Prontonise]

The city centre needs far more residential housing, has one of the lowest rates in the country for it.

[Stifler]

39 minutes ago, SteV said:

How did the university get a change of use for them then?

Because they were originally houses. Student accommodation was more aligned with its original intended purposes than offices. They also had to replace all the lost architectural elements internally that was lost during it’s on version to offices which happens before laws came into place forbidding such conversion and loss of architectural integrity.    

[Kid Icarus]

4 minutes ago, Bondedcrown said:

It's about its' listed building status not the housing ?

 

Yeah, but it was this (below) as an aside to that that we were touching on:

 

1 hour ago, Yorkie said:

Turning Leazes Terrace into a 'boutique hotel' still means taking goodness knows how many housing units out of the stock. It just isn't going to happen.

 

[Yorkie]

20 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Student accommodation and housing are a bit different. I don't know enough about Leazes Terrace to say what it's classed as or what would need to happen to change it to a business property. I remember Ponsaeleus mentioning it a while ago as a possibility though. But yeah, Newcastle definitely has far more student accommodation than it needs. Heaton and Jesmond are winding down their student populations and buy to let properties in those areas are going up for sale partly for that reason.

 

Student accommodation is a type of housing?

 

You will know the local situation better than I do but from a national planning point of view the policy is to deliver more homes, not fewer, so I'd be surprised if we could get away with buying and changing the use of Leazes Terrace without committing to mitigating the shortfall.

 

Dunno, just seems a bit pie in the sky to me. If we extend the East Stand it'll be done by coming up with some way to avoid the unreasonable impact on Leazes Terrace, imo. 

[Pancrate1892]

34 minutes ago, madras said:

I'd be as concerned with where those fans go if there needs to he a complete demolition  and rebuild of the East Stand.

How many does the east stand hold? Between 5000-6000? Probs be no general sale and take up a big chunk of the seats members get. Unless they can build it a bit at a time maybe start from the leazes corner toward the strawberry 

[madras]

Just now, Pancrate1892 said:

How many does the east stand hold? Between 5000-6000? Probs be no general sale and take up a big chunk of the seats members get. Unless they can build it a bit at a time maybe start from the leazes corner toward the strawberry 

I look at how Liverpool done theirs, building over and round while the stand was still in use and wonder if the seating of the East Stand could be incorporated somehow in order for no loss of capacity while any work takes place. I'm sure I read that Liverpools extension was engineeringly (made up word?) impossible not so long ago.

[Pancrate1892]

1 minute ago, madras said:

I look at how Liverpool done theirs, building over and round while the stand was still in use and wonder if the seating of the East Stand could be incorporated somehow in order for no loss of capacity while any work takes place. I'm sure I read that Liverpools extension was engineeringly (made up word?) impossible not so long ago.

The only think there is they had space behind anfield road for materials, cranes and shit. Where as we have leazes terrace 

[Kid Icarus]

Just now, Yorkie said:

 

Student accommodation is a type of housing?

 

You will know the local situation better than I do but from a national planning point of view the policy is to deliver more homes, not fewer, so I'd be surprised if we could get away with buying and changing the use of Leazes Terrace without committing to mitigating the shortfall.

 

Dunno, just seems a bit pie in the sky to me. If we extend the East Stand it'll be done by coming up with some way to avoid the unreasonable impact on Leazes Terrace, imo. 

Purpose built Student accommodation is different to housing, has different regulations and is just for students, it's not really housing. If it's current use is student accommodation, the argument for saying it would take away housing isn't really there when we have too much student accommodation in the city centre. All ifs and buts though admittedly.

 

Incidentally, I used to live on St Thomas Crescent following the redevelopment that went on a decade ago, they're basically dolls houses like. Lovely on the outside, but cheap and nasty inside.

[ponsaelius]

59 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

Student accommodation and housing are a bit different. I don't know enough about Leazes Terrace to say what it's classed as or what would need to happen to change it to a business property. I remember Ponsaeleus mentioning it a while ago as a possibility though. But yeah, Newcastle definitely has far more student accommodation than it needs. Heaton and Jesmond are winding down their student populations and buy to let properties in those areas are going up for sale partly for that reason.

 

For what it's worth the reason Heaton and Jesmond are winding down in terms of student populations is the result of a concerted effort by the council to move student accomodation from the suburbs into purpose built blocks in the city centre.

 

This is largely because of the negative externalities that overfilled HMOs and slum landlords have on existing areas and in terms of taking up supply of family homes. All housing supply is interlinked - the more students are moved into the city the more family homes are freed up. And generally students are more willing to live in central urban areas so it is a logical use of housing stock.

 

Boring bit alert but from a planning perspective that was partly implemented through the introduction of restricted areas which remove permitted development rights regarding HMOs. Usually this is a permitted change that doesn't need planning permission - but now it does in those specific areas. And when the use as a HMO lapses (as happened a lot during COVID) many existing HMOs had to reapply (and in a lot of cases were not able to get permission). This is why you see so many former HMOs now for sale as houses again.

 

In terms of student population accomodation in the city centre there is not an oversubscription yet and general policy is in favour of providing it. That said I would say taking LT out of residential use is a certainly nota complete no go if it could be justified as part of a wider public benefit. The same is also true of the heritage considerations (generally it is preferred to keep listed buildings in their original use). If the club did want a much bigger East Stand then buying LT and incorporating it into a wider scheme (I don't mean actually connecting to it - that wouldn't be a goer) would go a long way to removing the residential amenity barriers.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by ponsaelius

[Yorkie]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

Purpose built Student accommodation is different to housing, has different regulations and is just for students, it's not really housing. If it's current use is student accommodation, the argument for saying it would take away housing isn't really there when we have too much student accommodation in the city centre. All ifs and buts though admittedly.

 

Student accommodation absolutely is a type of housing though, and it contributes towards housing supply. It releases accommodation into the open market and allows family homes to stay as family homes. 

 

We're firmly off topic now though and probably boring everyone to tears. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if some architectural ingenuity can create a solution which avoids anyone having to touch Leazes Terrace. 

[madras]

7 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Purpose built Student accommodation is different to housing, has different regulations and is just for students, it's not really housing. If it's current use is student accommodation, the argument for saying it would take away housing isn't really there when we have too much student accommodation in the city centre. All ifs and buts though admittedly.

 

Incidentally, I used to live on St Thomas Crescent following the redevelopment that went on a decade ago, they're basically dolls houses like. Lovely on the outside, but cheap and nasty inside.

Depends how they're done (St Thomas's crescent), got friends lived there, following a split they now rent it out but it was lush, nee back garden mi d.

[madras]

4 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

Student accommodation absolutely is a type of housing though, and it contributes towards housing supply. It releases accommodation into the open market and allows family homes to stay as family homes. 

 

We're firmly off topic now though and probably boring everyone to tears. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if some architectural ingenuity can create a solution which avoids anyone having to touch Leazes Terrace. 

Yip, even it it's still smaller than the other 3 sides any increase in capacity that also increases corporate hospitality (necessary evil) will be welcomed.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by madras

[madras]

23 minutes ago, Pancrate1892 said:

The only think there is they had space behind anfield road for materials, cranes and shit. Where as we have leazes terrace 

Just Google mapped it and it's more constrained than you'd think but a bit more space than behind the East Stand. Surely doable though.

[ponsaelius]

There's a lot of misunderstanding about student blocks and a bit of a negative attitude across many cities to the proliferation of them in urban centres - as if it is coming in at the expense of delivering wider housing targets. But in the anglophone world many people/families don't want to live in apartment blocks if they can afford not to. Purpose built student accomodation is a way to deliver high density accomodation in brownfield urban areas that will be desirable to the target market and in the process free up other housing stock. So in general it is a good thing. 

 

The problem comes with the quality of that housing and it's convertibility if there is ever a significant drop in student population.

[Kid Icarus]

17 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

Student accommodation absolutely is a type of housing though, and it contributes towards housing supply. It releases accommodation into the open market and allows family homes to stay as family homes. 

 

We're firmly off topic now though and probably boring everyone to tears. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if some architectural ingenuity can create a solution which avoids anyone having to touch Leazes Terrace. 

Howeh man Yorkie you know what I mean  It's not the same as private renting, it has its own regulations and is for students only. But yeah, fair enough, it's housing.

 

In general it indirectly frees up other privately rented properties by being there, but in this specific case with Leazes Terrace where there's existing, available student accommodation in the same area, it doesn't really apply. I'd be agreeing with you if the city didn't have enough student accommodation.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Kid Icarus

[Pancrate1892]

7 minutes ago, madras said:

Just Google mapped it and it's more constrained than you'd think but a bit more space than behind the East Stand. Surely doable though.

Aye just seen.....there's a collection of bins and a big rat community nearby. 

[Yorkie]

4 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

Howeh man Yorkie you know what I mean  It's not the same as private renting, it has its own regulations and is for students only. But yeah, fair enough, it's housing.

 

In general it indirectly frees up other privately rented properties by existing, but in this specific case with Leazes Terrace where there's existing, available student accommodation in the same area, it doesn't really apply. I'd be agreeing with you if the city didn't have enough student accommodation.

 

Soz mate, wasn't deliberately being pedantic. It's definition as housing was relevant to our debate. 

 

But as I said earlier, if there's actually a surplus (i.e. literally more places to sleep than there are people to sleep in them), then maybe there'd be legs to Gobshite Life's idea. 

[Stifler]

On 27/06/2023 at 11:57, Kid Icarus said:

Purpose built Student accommodation is different to housing, has different regulations and is just for students, it's not really housing. If it's current use is student accommodation, the argument for saying it would take away housing isn't really there when we have too much student accommodation in the city centre. All ifs and buts though admittedly.

 

Incidentally, I used to live on St Thomas Crescent following the redevelopment that went on a decade ago, they're basically dolls houses like. Lovely on the outside, but cheap and nasty inside.

We absolutely do not.

Newcastle University has about 20k undergraduate students. Northumbria has a total of 32k students, with the vast majority being undergraduates.

 

Over the last 20 years there has been a call to get the students out of places like Jesmond, Heaton, Sandyford, and Gosforth. This is so they can free up housing that is used for student flats, to families. This is why there has been a few student accommodation blocks built, but it’s nowhere near enough. There is similar stores in every city, with residents complaining that students are renting flats that locals can live in, and then complaining about purpose built student accommodation being built. Students can’t win, and are becoming a scapegoat for people to blame the housing market and also social problems on.

 

For what it is worth, without students then whatever sort of economy Newcastle has after 5pm, wouldn’t exist, nor would we have anywhere as much multicultural that we do have (although you can still say that’s lacking).

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Stifler

[Kid Icarus]

1 hour ago, Stifler said:

We absolutely do not.

Newcastle University has about 20k undergraduate students. Northumbria has a total of 32k students, with the vast majority being undergraduates.

 

Over the last 20 years there has been a call to get the students out of places like Jesmond, Heaton, Sandyford, and Gosforth. This is so they can free up housing that is used for student flats, to families. This is why there has been a few student accommodation blocks built, but it’s nowhere near enough. There is similar stores in every city, with residents complaining that students are renting flats that locals can live in, and then complaining about purpose built student accommodation being built. Students can’t win, and are becoming a scapegoat for people to blame the housing market and also social problems on.

 

For what it is worth, without students then whatever sort of economy Newcastle has after 5pm, wouldn’t exist, now would we have anywhere as much multicultural that we do have (although you can still say that’s lacking).

 

Student population ≠ student accommodation population. I would need to check when I'm on campus for the exact figures, but we (Newcastle Uni) and Northumbria have a huge amount of local students who live at home as well as students in off campus sites and in Singapore and Malaysia. 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Kid Icarus