Crooks- "English football should be ashamed"

[Guest ticaL]

Would like to know how many black people have sat the UEFA courses compared to white people then applied for managerial positions.

Part of the problem is that black players who want to become managers have seen the barriers, and consequently don't even bother doing the courses. So, you'll probably find that they are under represented there.

 

Its called hard work and taking a chance, huge barrier everyone faces, the race card is an easy way out as they simply cant be arsed.

Are you saying that black people are lazy?

 

Anyone who uses that excuse is lazy.

 

...and the fact he was quasi-insinuating it aswell.

[Guest Phil K]

As usual Phil gets the wrong end of a completely different stick.

Sorry ? You made a smirking comment about Leazes - on the tiresome muslim thing - didn't we have enough of this after the Blackburn game ? - and I respond in a like manner. If yours was sarcastic what then was mine ?

Still sarcasm, matey.

Hence, both sarcasm, hence same difference.

[Guest jazzfido]

Would like to know how many black people have sat the UEFA courses compared to white people then applied for managerial positions.

Part of the problem is that black players who want to become managers have seen the barriers, and consequently don't even bother doing the courses. So, you'll probably find that they are under represented there.

 

Its called hard work and taking a chance, huge barrier everyone faces, the race card is an easy way out as they simply cant be arsed.

Are you saying that black people are lazy?

 

Anyone who uses that excuse is lazy.

 

 

So, we know that a disproportionately large number of black players don't enter managerial course because they are lazy (more so than white players). Interesting view you hold there.

[Guest Phil K]

Theres an awful lot of propounding and accusations.

Bottom line is NO ONE on here knows how many blacks, asians, mongolians, leprecauns or whatever have done the course or even applied for managerial jobs.

So - all a bit academic, or more to the point - strident lecturing rather than knowledgeable discussion I'd say.

[Guest BooBoo]

I find it ironic that in Spain, a country with a race problem that dwarves ours (if indeed we have one), a black man holds one of the most prestigous jobs in the country if not the world of football. Rijkaard at Barcelona. Fact is, that if there were black managers with the necessary talents and skills then the colour of thier skin wouldnt prevent them getting a job in the Premiership.

[gazza ladra]

To me it is incredible that any discussion of racism in society immediately leads to one side charging the other with gross simplification and  ignorance,

 

Crooks makes a statement. His character is impugned. His looks are mocked. His arguments are dismissed out-of-hand without consideration.

 

No facts are presented. The science of statistics are dismissed, again, out-of-hand eliminating the basis of all rational discussion. False analogies and poor, irrelevant arguments are repeated and repeated again. And again. As if merely repeating a prejudice is enough to win the argument.

 

Fact.  mackems.gif

 

And inevitably, the side that accuses the other of ignorance is the side that claims that no racism exists.

 

Oh, irony.

[Dokko]

Would like to know how many black people have sat the UEFA courses compared to white people then applied for managerial positions.

Part of the problem is that black players who want to become managers have seen the barriers, and consequently don't even bother doing the courses. So, you'll probably find that they are under represented there.

 

Its called hard work and taking a chance, huge barrier everyone faces, the race card is an easy way out as they simply cant be arsed.

Are you saying that black people are lazy?

 

Anyone who uses that excuse is lazy.

 

 

So, we know that a disproportionately large number of black players don't enter managerial course because they are lazy (more so than white players). Interesting view you hold there.

 

If they are all using race as an excuse...

 

 

 

 

But there not, not at all. Some go for it, some cant be bothered, some generally will be useless beyond Souness, then there are some who'll just hide their failings by pulling out the race card.

 

'I was good, i was a mint footballer why wont they give me a job? Is it coz i haven't got qualifications? Is it because i have no experience? Is it because i'm black? Hmm, that black thing works quite well, i'll use that.'

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Phil K]

And inevitably, the side that accuses the other of ignorance is the side that claims that no racism exists.

Oh, irony.

Speak as you find, of course - or rather from your own standpoint.

I have personally found that the racism-shouters will say there's LESS racism when it suites them, or MORE when they're argueing that.

Duke of Wellington could have been talking about the PC career racist-shouters when he said "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"

[Cajun]

Anyone thought that black players don't study and apply for managerial jobs not because they are scared of the barriers but more the fact that they simply don't want to?

[gazza ladra]

And inevitably, the side that accuses the other of ignorance is the side that claims that no racism exists.

Oh, irony.

Speak as you find, of course - or rather from your own standpoint.

I have personally found that the racism-shouters will say there's LESS racism when it suites them, or MORE when they're argueing that.

Duke of Wellington could have been talking about the PC career racist-shouters when he said "Lies, damn lies, and statistics"

 

Yes, and Disraeli said "Most people use statistics the way that a drunk uses a light post-- more for support than for illumination"

 

I am trying to use statistics to illuminate the issue and enable us to discuss an emotionally-charged topic rationally.

 

My point was that, in my experience, it is the so-called  "racism-shouters" who are the ones who make the appeals to reason and the racism-deniers who, inevitably, do the shouting.

 

Crooks presented an argument. If you disagree, refute it with facts. Hard numbers are a good place to start.

[gazza ladra]

Anyone thought that black players don't study and apply for managerial jobs not because they are scared of the barriers but more the fact that they simply don't want to?

 

It is plausible. It is equally plausible that blacks do "read-the-writing on the wall", and don't bother applying. I don't know. Neither option should be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Guest jazzfido]

Anyone thought that black players don't study and apply for managerial jobs not because they are scared of the barriers but more the fact that they simply don't want to?

Could be, but why would that be the case?

 

Nevertheless, dismissing that there is racism in football, as some people so vehemently do in this thread, is quite shocking. Racism is an unpleasant and illogical fact of life that should not be ignored.

[NE5]

BBC rent a gob Garth Crooks has today stated that English football should be ashamed of itself after the finding that 2% of coaches/managers are black. I must admit my first thought was "not yet another race whinge", but would be interested to find out the mass opinion on this matter?

Works for the BBC - hence has to mouth off politically correct crap to impress the unelected lesbians in charge of said BBC.

I doubt he's this tedious.

 

agreed, but he probably is this tedious .......

 

 

[Dokko]

Like i said before, how many black players were there in the 80's compared to now?

 

Back then i'd quite imaging racism existed in the levels were talking about here (board room) but when you see all the big teams full of black or mixed players then you can hardly suggest those running the clubs are racists and don't want black managers.

 

Most clubs, if not all run huge anti-racism campaigns which cost money and time (why would a racist board sanction this?) and the UK probably is the best place for a black player to play his football, many African players have stated this over the years, and find it hard to deal while playing in Europe with the open racism as they've forgotten the level of abuse that can happen elsewhere. It still does happen here, but its dealt with, and severe but fair punishment is handed down.

 

More and more black players are making it as footballers, and when that career ends more and more will become coaches or at least try, more will become managers and then those who are good enough will succeed at the highest level.

 

But that could take a while. If black people want to pull the racism card as an excuse to make them more determined to succeed, then i hope that works for them. But the ones who pull it as they simply cannot be arsed to take the course and take a chance and compete in an even harder job than they've just finished doing can piss off, you fool no one.

 

 

[NE5]

says a bloke who has got his job because he is black !!! He certainly hasn't got it because he's good .....

So, Crooks, who is useless, got the job because he is black, and the rest of the commentators, who happen to be white and useless, got their jobs because they have a past as players?

 

So, you are saying that for a black player to be employed he has to be competent, but this is of no importance if you are white?

 

Slightly racist, don't you think?

 

rather than jump on a pc bandwagon, for some reason or agenda you have that I don't give a toss about anyway, Crooks is useless. I don't agree that Lineker, Hansen, Gray, Keyes and some others are useless, in fact they are all very good.

 

He got the job because he is black, IMO. If you can't accept that, then hard lines. I think the racists are people like you telling people like me I have to listen to crap pundits and keep them in their jobs just because of their colour.

 

I said that Earle has got his job on his own merits, so give your crap a rest.

 

 

 

[Guest ticaL]

Anyone thought that black players don't study and apply for managerial jobs not because they are scared of the barriers but more the fact that they simply don't want to?

Could be, but why would that be the case?

 

Nevertheless, dismissing that there is racism in football, as some people so vehemently do in this thread, is quite shocking. Racism is an unpleasant and illogical fact of life that should not be ignored.

 

They haven't, they just don't see it as the main benefactor to black people not becoming managers of English football clubs...

[NE5]

The problem that Crooks highlights is simple: there is an under representation of black players in management. One of the reasons for this is that it is white people employing the managers, and since most white people, consciously or subconsciously, are prejudiced or even racist, it is, obviously, more difficult for a black man to enter management.

 

load of bollocks

 

 

[NE5]

Has anyone proposed a law which says that 10% of all managers must be black? Crooks is merely raising a relevant issue.

It starts by someone whining about it - then the rusty bikes at the BBC demand yet another "institutional racism" panorama and their fellow rusties in the Labour party start demanding government action.

Step one done, step two on the way from the BBC ?

Can you recall a couple of years ago said rusties demanding from their "think tank" that clubs should put so many thousands of seats by for the SOLE use of asians - and at cut prices too ?

 

 

Gemma and his cronies on toontastic will like that 

[Dinho lad]

Did Sir Les get his job because he's black as well? What about Carlton Palmer? Desailly?

[Parky]

Kin hell....Trisha Lives!! mackems.gif

[gazza ladra]

Like i said before, how many black players were there in the 80's compared to now?

 

Back then i'd quite imaging racism existed in the levels were talking about here (board room) but when you see all the big teams full of black or mixed players then you can hardly suggest those running the clubs are racists and don't want black managers.

 

Yes, you can. A few years ago, perhaps twenty years ago now an interview was broadcast on American television with a man named Al Campanis  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Campanis  in which this boardroom insider claimed that blacks lacked the necessarily requirements to be baseball managers.

 

Read it for an education.

 

 

 

Most clubs, if not all run huge anti-racism campaigns which cost money and time (why would a racist board sanction this?)

 

Al Campanis worked for the Los Angeles Dodgers- the team that broke the race barrier in American baseball and first hired a black player, Jackie Robinson, in 1947. The club was long renowned and celebrated as the club that did the most to bring equal opportunities to everyone regardless of their race.

 

His statements were so shocking precisely because he worked for the Dodgers and not, say, the Cincinnati Reds-- a club that might be compared to Everton.

 

and the UK probably is the best place for a black player to play his football, many African players have stated this over the years, and find it hard to deal while playing in Europe with the open racism as they've forgotten the level of abuse that can happen elsewhere. It still does happen here, but its dealt with, and severe but fair punishment is handed down.

 

True. But comparing yourself with Spain doesn't really do you any favors. If an American politican in 1960s America tried to claim there was no racism in  this country by pointing at South Africa, would you believe him?

 

More and more black players are making it as footballers, and when that career ends more and more will become coaches or at least try, more will become managers and then those who are good enough will succeed at the highest level.

All good, but the highlighted which is disingenuous, dishonest, and, in my opinion, willfully ignorant.

 

 

But that could take a while. If black people want to pull the racism card as an excuse to make them more determined to succeed, then i hope that works for them. But the ones who pull it as they simply cannot be arsed to take the course and take a chance and compete in an even harder job than they've just finished doing can piss off, you fool no one.

Here we witness a general decline into bullshit.  Sad really No arguments to refute, just ugly bullshit

 

 

[Dokko]

Like i said before, how many black players were there in the 80's compared to now?

 

Back then i'd quite imaging racism existed in the levels were talking about here (board room) but when you see all the big teams full of black or mixed players then you can hardly suggest those running the clubs are racists and don't want black managers.

 

Yes, you can. A few years ago, perhaps twenty years ago know an interview was broadcast on American television with a man named http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Campanis  in which this boardroom insider claimed that blacks lacked the necessarily requirements to be baseball managers.

 

Read it for an education.

 

 

 

Most clubs, if not all run huge anti-racism campaigns which cost money and time (why would a racist board sanction this?)

 

Al Campanis worked for the Los Angeles Dodgers- the team that broke the race barrier in American baseball and first hired a black player, Jackie Robinson, in 1947. The club was long renowned and celebrated as the club that did the most to bring equal opportunities to everyone regardless of their race.

 

His statements were so shocking precisely because he worked for the Dodgers and not, say, the Cincinnati Reds-- a club that might be compared to Everton.

 

and the UK probably is the best place for a black player to play his football, many African players have stated this over the years, and find it hard to deal while playing in Europe with the open racism as they've forgotten the level of abuse that can happen elsewhere. It still does happen here, but its dealt with, and severe but fair punishment is handed down.

 

True. But comparing yourself with Spain doesn't really do you any favors. If an American politican in 1960s American tried to claim there was no racism in  this country by pointing at South Africa, would you believe him?

 

More and more black players are making it as footballers, and when that career ends more and more will become coaches or at least try, more will become managers and then those who are good enough will succeed at the highest level.

All good, but the highlighted which is disingenuous, dishonest, and, in my opinion, willfully ignorant.

 

 

But that could take a while. If black people want to pull the racism card as an excuse to make them more determined to succeed, then i hope that works for them. But the ones who pull it as they simply cannot be arsed to take the course and take a chance and compete in an even harder job than they've just finished doing can piss off, you fool no one.

Here we witness a general decline into bullshit.  Sad really No arguments to refute, just ugly bullshit

 

 

 

And you reply with bullsiht examples from the fuking States?

 

Get a grip, did you not read the thread title of "English football should be ashamed"?

 

Or just whatever suits.

 

Keep up the crap work.

[Parky]

Tbf altough it doesn't apply directly it was an interesting read and has a bearing on race and sport.

 

 

I think Ince and Ferdinand have a good chance of breaking through into the higher leagues. Part of the problem has been the likes of Gullit and Barnes being so rubbish.

[UV]

The problem that Crooks highlights is simple: there is an under representation of black players in management. One of the reasons for this is that it is white people employing the managers, and since most white people, consciously or subconsciously, are prejudiced or even racist, it is, obviously, more difficult for a black man to enter management.

 

Not "people" I notice, just "white people".

 

I object to being stereotyped and discriminated against because of the colour of my skin.

I think there's a word for that.

[Dokko]

The problem that Crooks highlights is simple: there is an under representation of black players in management. One of the reasons for this is that it is white people employing the managers, and since most white people, consciously or subconsciously, are prejudiced or even racist, it is, obviously, more difficult for a black man to enter management.

 

Not "people" I notice, just "white people".

 

I object to being stereotyped and discriminated against because of the colour of my skin.

I think there's a word for that.