José Enrique

[Stu]

Aren't Villareal in financial trouble?

 

Villarreal* but yes I think they had some problems that they're expecting to come out of when they qualify for the Champions League again this season. Competing at the highest level with very limited resources is difficult and the fact they've managed to do it at all is an example to a lot of other clubs with far more potential.

 

 

What is your point? The scenarios are completely different.

 

 

OK, so we "do a Villarreal" (who by, VI's admission "are truly a fairy tale"). We keep the likes of Carroll, Tiote and Enrique here by promising them that we'll match their ambition with some sensible spending and increasing the wage structure to attract champions league calibre players. Heaven knows, we actually start challenging for the Champs League and qualifying a couple of season - might even go on a run. Now that we're earning at that level, we start spending at that level.

 

What happens when we don't qualify one season? Or re-create the Partisan downfall? Do we continue to spend during that season in the hope that we re-qualify (facing far fiercer financial obstacles if we fail) or do we cut our cloth accordingly and sell off some of our star players, breaking up the squad in the process? (this may have happened to Valencia)

 

I probably got lost in translation here, when in Spanish you say something is a "fairy tale" it means something like "a dream come true".

 

Anyway, I think Sevilla are a far better example for you lot. Similarly sized club (I'd have NUFC to be bigger). A policy of very shrewd scouting and buying brought them trophies and CL campaigns. They also did sell *a lot* of the players they discovered (Baptista, Ramos, Dani Alves, etc...) but managed to keep being competitive thanks to a fantastic scouting setup and the outrageous money they got off their sales.

 

How many seasons did they go from being an 'average club' to a 'challenger for champions league place'?

 

Sewelly - I think we're both on the same trajectory, just at have the club at different points. The burden of expectation seemed to weigh us down in our last few seasons in the premiership, almost as though because we'd spent big on wages and transfers, we should be challenging for Europe. Now that we're operating off a shoe-string (for better or for worse), the expectations have been dampened but the performances far more enjoyable.

 

[Village Idiot]

Sevilla got promoted back to La Liga in 2001, and managed their first UEFA berth in 2004, and won it in 2006. I think Del Nido's presidency in 2002 is what started their current era. 3-4 years to built the basis of their current start, taking into account that Reyes, Baptista, Ramos, Dani Alves, Poulsen... got bought/developed and sold with huge profits in the process.

[sh74]

At the end of the day the big clubs will take our best players because they have got the financial clout behind them,until we can match the top teams' wage structures it will always happen eg Andy Carroll.

[TBG]

It was so easy for him yesterday he was playing with his eyes closed.

http://www.nufc.co.uk/javaImages/4e/ad/0,,10278~9416014,00.jpg

 

[Mick]

It was so easy for him yesterday he was playing with his eyes closed.

http://www.nufc.co.uk/javaImages/4e/ad/0,,10278~9416014,00.jpg

 

 

[Doug]

He will probably want champions league football next season.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Wouldn't hold anything against the lad if he moved,think he's earned it to be fair.

 

Earned what? What about earning the right to a new contract at the magnificent club he already plays for?

 

This increasing acceptance that we're nothing really pisses me off. The Ashley effect.

 

Powerless realisation, not acceptance.

[Guest BooBoo]

I really wish he'd signed his new deal. I cant help but think that postponing it till the summer is a smokescreen for wanting to move on.

[Newcastle Fan]

I really wish he'd signed his new deal. I cant help but think that postponing it till the summer is a smokescreen for wanting to move on.

 

I really can't blame him though..

[oldtype]

I'm with Dave like, the acceptance for mediocrity is f***ing s***. I don't care where my club stands, whether it be in the Championship or the bottom of half of the Prem. As a fan the least we can expect/hope for is ambition of some kind. The hope that we can push on and progress at a steady rate. I don't expect accelerated fake success like Man City, just natural steady progress. Now, to progress like this we need to keep our best players at all costs.

 

I hate this acceptance that there is the elite clubs and that it's impossible to break into them or compete. The chances of us breaking into the top echelons these days are slim, but that doesn't mean as fan we should simply accept that there is a ceiling that cannot be broken. Hearing fans say they don't mind players moving on to the likes of Man U because they've earned a move to a 'big club' it is just revolting as far as I'm concerned. Fans just simply accept the monopolisation of good players as the norm because the media pushes this idea. The idea that good players haven't completed a career until they've played for Man U, Liverpool or Real Madrid.

 

As rare as it is, it is possible for smaller clubs to grow into bigger ones. Villarreal went from the lower divisions in Spain to being consistent Champions League qualifiers and being within touching distance of a CL final one year. Their catchment area and marketing qualities are tiny, yet they were able to break the mould in Spain without spending stupid. If a village team can reach those heights then the potential for a club like Newcastle is massive. We always get slated for considering ourselves a big club but I'd far rather that kind of delusion and expectancy than the acceptance of our place as an also-ran.

 

I remember speaking to a Fulham fan a few years ago who said that Newcastle were the biggest underachievers in any sporting code, and in a way he is right. I'm not just going to accept us as becoming a selling club that will forever win nothing. If fans do that then they lose any hope of ambition and there's no point in supporting a football team at all.

 

We can all dream, there's nothing wrong with that. I just don't think it's healthy for anybody to support this club thinking that we're some sort of "sleeping dragon" liable to reclaim our rightful place in the Champions league at any moment. We were never a "top tier" European club. Our current state is not an aberration: if anything, our successful spells under Robson and Keegan probably were.

 

Of course it's not impossible that the coin could come up heads fifty times in a row one of these days and we could make a run to the Champions League or even the title, and I have my share of wet dreams about that from time to time. But what I don't like is this ridiculous sense of entitlement that says just because we have a big stadium and good crowds we should be up there with the big boys. We have no more "right" to be in the top 4 than the likes of Birmingham or West Ham.

[Tachikoma]

I really wish he'd signed his new deal. I cant help but think that postponing it till the summer is a smokescreen for wanting to move on.

 

I really can't blame him though..

 

He said he'll sign as soon as we're safe, which means 2-3 more wins and he's ours for life *clutches straws*.

[merlin]

If we can go from nearly winning the league to relegation, then we can go the opposite direction as well.

 

Things can change, look at Spurs. We consistently finished above them until a few years ago, now they're miles ahead. There's no reason at all to accept that our current position is permanent, the trick is balancing the expectation of progress with the reality of our finances.

 

Spurs are NOT going to win the league - either this season, next or the one after that - why ? because they also have a wage cap and the best players will always go to clubs that both pay them the best rate and also sign OTHER top class players. Spurs ARE an example of the best NUFC could achieve unless taken over by ultra-rich owners.

 

Its a fact of life and no amount of wishing will make it different - NOBODY who supports NUFC is in any doubt about the club's potential but unless the thousands(yes, thousands)of fans who have become disillusioned with the club see genuine signs of ambition, they aint coming back any time soon.

 

The Europeanisation of the English game now means that foreign players form a large part of PL top sides and most of these either want to live in London or Manchester because of the better transport links and perception as places with more facilities of all kinds - even if this is not entirely true, so the club face enough problems geographically without the added handicap of being perceived as always being run controversially and on the cheap, which is how NUFC is seen by many players now.

 

We have been able to sign the likes of Enrique and Tiote because they were YOUNG players, still unknown in the game and therefore a gamble for the top clubs. Now they have been seen to be top class themselves, they will be poached away if offered better deals/careers. A TRULY top club would have little fear of losing these guys unless someone like Real Madrid came knocking with megabucks because they are ALREADY offering them success and the rewards that go with them.

 

Whether you, I or anyone else likes it(and obviously we don't), its a fact of life and until the way NUFC is run changes, we will continue to lose our best players....'.big fleas have littler fleas upon their back to bite 'em...little fleas have littler fleas and so ad infinitum' Its the law of the jungle and the guys with the biggest teeth keep winning unfortunately.

The rest all keep running and hoping those teeth don't grab their best bits....!

[mrmojorisin75]

This increasing acceptance that we're nothing really pisses me off. The Ashley effect.

 

partially, but you must also accept that even if Ashley suddenly starts investing reasonable amounts for the next few years we're simply not going to get back in the CL and enrique won't get the international recognition he needs

 

if i big bid came in from a regular CL qualifier then he's gone and you couldn't blame him, we as fans love the club but if football was my profession i might want to end it looking back at what i'd won after having provided great service to NUFC for 4 years

 

there's no conflict for me

[Optimistic Nut]

Dave, even without Ashley, given the 'big 4' and Man City, where do you realistically expect us? I think unless we're taken over a la City then 6th or 7th is the best everyone could realistically achieve. That's fuck all to do with the Ashley effect, that would apply whether I supported Villa, Everton or even Sunderland. This season might be one season too soon but even under Ashley I reckon we could realistically push that closer next season.

[mrmojorisin75]

Dave, even without Ashley, given the 'big 4' and Man City, where do you realistically expect us? I think unless we're taken over a la City then 6th or 7th is the best everyone could realistically achieve. That's fuck all to do with the Ashley effect, that would apply whether I supported Villa, Everton or even Sunderland. This season might be one season too soon but even under Ashley I reckon we could realistically push that closer next season.

 

pretty much spot on

[Cronky]

Selling a player to a bigger club doesn't have to be a backward step, providing the price is right. Look at Spurs after they sold Berbatov, or Arsenal after selling Anelka, Overmars and Petit. Trying to hold on to your best players regardless isn't the only way to move forward. 

[taxfree]

Selling a player to a bigger club doesn't have to be a backward step, providing the price is right. Look at Spurs after they sold Berbatov, or Arsenal after selling Anelka, Overmars and Petit. Trying to hold on to your best players regardless isn't the only way to move forward. 

 

To sell Tiote, Enrique and Carroll is to step backwards. They are probably the best players we can get in our position, and I don't trust Pardew in the transfer market.

[Punk77]

Dave, even without Ashley, given the 'big 4' and Man City, where do you realistically expect us? I think unless we're taken over a la City then 6th or 7th is the best everyone could realistically achieve. That's f*** all to do with the Ashley effect, that would apply whether I supported Villa, Everton or even Sunderland. This season might be one season too soon but even under Ashley I reckon we could realistically push that closer next season.

 

pretty much spot on

 

Spot on indeed. They way City and Chelsea are run, is ruining the PL imo. It is just plain stupid to buy players for £70 million a couple of days after the announcement of a deficit of similar size. Both clubs are utterly owner dependent. No senior player in chelsea is paid below £80 000. I wonder what will happen with that club if Abrah. decides enough is enough. I guess he will have problems with selling the club though. No man is willing to take over a club full of elderly players on very high salaries.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If we can go from nearly winning the league to relegation, then we can go the opposite direction as well.

 

Things can change, look at Spurs. We consistently finished above them until a few years ago, now they're miles ahead. There's no reason at all to accept that our current position is permanent, the trick is balancing the expectation of progress with the reality of our finances.

 

Spurs are NOT going to win the league - either this season, next or the one after that - why ? because they also have a wage cap and the best players will always go to clubs that both pay them the best rate and also sign OTHER top class players. Spurs ARE an example of the best NUFC could achieve unless taken over by ultra-rich owners.

 

Its a fact of life and no amount of wishing will make it different - NOBODY who supports NUFC is in any doubt about the club's potential but unless the thousands(yes, thousands)of fans who have become disillusioned with the club see genuine signs of ambition, they aint coming back any time soon.

 

The Europeanisation of the English game now means that foreign players form a large part of PL top sides and most of these either want to live in London or Manchester because of the better transport links and perception as places with more facilities of all kinds - even if this is not entirely true, so the club face enough problems geographically without the added handicap of being perceived as always being run controversially and on the cheap, which is how NUFC is seen by many players now.

 

We have been able to sign the likes of Enrique and Tiote because they were YOUNG players, still unknown in the game and therefore a gamble for the top clubs. Now they have been seen to be top class themselves, they will be poached away if offered better deals/careers. A TRULY top club would have little fear of losing these guys unless someone like Real Madrid came knocking with megabucks because they are ALREADY offering them success and the rewards that go with them.

 

Whether you, I or anyone else likes it(and obviously we don't), its a fact of life and until the way NUFC is run changes, we will continue to lose our best players....'.big fleas have littler fleas upon their back to bite 'em...little fleas have littler fleas and so ad infinitum' Its the law of the jungle and the guys with the biggest teeth keep winning unfortunately.

The rest all keep running and hoping those teeth don't grab their best bits....!

 

I don't really disagree with any of that, I just think that it is possible for the hierarchy in the Premier League to change. It already has pretty often over the last few years (outside of the top 3 or 4 always being the same).

 

If by 'the way NUFC is run changes' you mean taking big financial risks to try and break into the elite, we've tried that and it didn't exactly turn out great. If you mean we need a mega-rich owner who's prepared to spunk his private money on players and wages, I probably agree that's the best chance for progress in the current system.

 

All I really want is for us to keep making solid, quality signings of players who actually want to play for us, and hopefully that will lead to steady progress. Then we'll see what happens to the other clubs in the league and if they fall back. We did, they can to.

[merlin]

Selling a player to a bigger club doesn't have to be a backward step, providing the price is right. Look at Spurs after they sold Berbatov, or Arsenal after selling Anelka, Overmars and Petit. Trying to hold on to your best players regardless isn't the only way to move forward. 

 

We are neither Spurs nor Arsenal and good young players with potential will not see it your way - they will simply see a club selling its best players,so how do you replace them unless you pay decent wages ?

This has been NUFC's problem over the past 7 years - they have only been able to attract players that other clubs didn't want to pay big wages to(like Owen and Martins)because NUFC WERE prepared to pay under Shepherd...success didn't follow so the club built up a huge debt. Ashley's method prevents big debt but it also leaves the club likely to lose its best players over time.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Selling a player to a bigger club doesn't have to be a backward step, providing the price is right. Look at Spurs after they sold Berbatov, or Arsenal after selling Anelka, Overmars and Petit. Trying to hold on to your best players regardless isn't the only way to move forward.  

 

We are neither Spurs nor Arsenal and good young players with potential will not see it your way - they will simply see a club selling its best players,so how do you replace them unless you pay decent wages ?

This has been NUFC's problem over the past 7 years - they have only been able to attract players that other clubs didn't want to pay big wages to(like Owen and Martins)because NUFC WERE prepared to pay under Shepherd...success didn't follow so the club built up a huge debt. Ashley's method prevents big debt but it also leaves the club likely to lose its best players over time.

 

I really don't think that players are as concerned about previous player sales as you think. I mean, if we want to spend £7m of the Carroll money on a new player, I doubt that player is thinking the Carroll sale was a bad thing.

 

This might change if we go on to sell Colo, Tiote, Enrique etc, but at the moment I think everyone in football just thinks the Carroll sale was one of the those freak deals that happens now and again.

[merlin]

If we can go from nearly winning the league to relegation, then we can go the opposite direction as well.

 

Things can change, look at Spurs. We consistently finished above them until a few years ago, now they're miles ahead. There's no reason at all to accept that our current position is permanent, the trick is balancing the expectation of progress with the reality of our finances.

 

Spurs are NOT going to win the league - either this season, next or the one after that - why ? because they also have a wage cap and the best players will always go to clubs that both pay them the best rate and also sign OTHER top class players. Spurs ARE an example of the best NUFC could achieve unless taken over by ultra-rich owners.

 

Its a fact of life and no amount of wishing will make it different - NOBODY who supports NUFC is in any doubt about the club's potential but unless the thousands(yes, thousands)of fans who have become disillusioned with the club see genuine signs of ambition, they aint coming back any time soon.

 

The Europeanisation of the English game now means that foreign players form a large part of PL top sides and most of these either want to live in London or Manchester because of the better transport links and perception as places with more facilities of all kinds - even if this is not entirely true, so the club face enough problems geographically without the added handicap of being perceived as always being run controversially and on the cheap, which is how NUFC is seen by many players now.

 

We have been able to sign the likes of Enrique and Tiote because they were YOUNG players, still unknown in the game and therefore a gamble for the top clubs. Now they have been seen to be top class themselves, they will be poached away if offered better deals/careers. A TRULY top club would have little fear of losing these guys unless someone like Real Madrid came knocking with megabucks because they are ALREADY offering them success and the rewards that go with them.

 

Whether you, I or anyone else likes it(and obviously we don't), its a fact of life and until the way NUFC is run changes, we will continue to lose our best players....'.big fleas have littler fleas upon their back to bite 'em...little fleas have littler fleas and so ad infinitum' Its the law of the jungle and the guys with the biggest teeth keep winning unfortunately.

The rest all keep running and hoping those teeth don't grab their best bits....!

 

I don't really disagree with any of that, I just think that it is possible for the hierarchy in the Premier League to change. It already has pretty often over the last few years (outside of the top 3 or 4 always being the same).

 

If by 'the way NUFC is run changes' you mean taking big financial risks to try and break into the elite, we've tried that and it didn't exactly turn out great. If you mean we need a mega-rich owner who's prepared to spunk his private money on players and wages, I probably agree that's the best chance for progress in the current system.

 

All I really want is for us to keep making solid, quality signings of players who actually want to play for us, and hopefully that will lead to steady progress. Then we'll see what happens to the other clubs in the league and if they fall back. We did, they can to.

 

I DID mean the rich owner scenario - Shepherd's way was a disaster, but Ashley has gone completely the other way. Whilst I agree with him that footballers; wages are scandalous, that's the league we are in so you have to strike a better balance than he currently is, or there will be no meaningful progress.

[oldtype]

Funny how the Shepherd way and the Ashley way have us in pretty much the same league position.

[Stu]

Dave, even without Ashley, given the 'big 4' and Man City, where do you realistically expect us? I think unless we're taken over a la City then 6th or 7th is the best everyone could realistically achieve. That's fuck all to do with the Ashley effect, that would apply whether I supported Villa, Everton or even Sunderland. This season might be one season too soon but even under Ashley I reckon we could realistically push that closer next season.

 

pretty much spot on

 

Can't be true, Dave's Ashley stick can't be beaten if it is!

[dustynrg]

A clue to his superman performance on Sat?

 

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Transfer-news-Liverpool-plotting-a-second-raid-on-Newcastle-for-Jose-Enrique-article697139.html

 

Liverpool are plotting a second major transfer swoop on Newcastle United - for super Spanish left back Jose Enrique.

 

Kop talent-spotter Damien Comolli watched the highly-rated defender in action at the weekend as he looks for a solution to Kenny Dalglish’s problem position.

 

Enrique was in outstanding form against Blackburn Rovers, adding to his reputation as one of the best players in his role in the Premier League - and the Anfield club may trouble the Toon again in the summer.

 

Dalglish shattered Liverpool’s signing record by landing striker Andy Carroll from Newcastle and the Geordies would look for a hefty fee for Enrique too.

 

However Liverpool need a recognised player in that position as Paul Konchesky is exiled at Nottingham Forest on loan and Glen Johnson is filling in for the rest of the campaign - but clearly not suited as a long-term answer.

 

Enrique, 25, was a big-money capture by Sam Allardyce during his time at Newcastle and has also been linked with Manchester United as a possible replacement for Patrice Evra if he leaves.

 

However Liverpool are now heading the queue and could make an offer in the summer - with cash to spend on improvements in that area.