macbeth

Excellent someone is joining while using facts rather than just "nah nah nah" The problem with removing amortisation and player trading is that the club need to invets in players, and that cost will never go away. The club need to have players, and will need to buy some of them to actually allow their business to run. It would be like XL pointing to how well their business is run while asking us to ignore the cost of planes. Their fuel bill being the equivalent of NUFC's wage bill. For the last three years the net amount the club paid on players was between £10 and £11m. That was the figure that Shepherd felt the business could, or had, to run at. At the same time the amortisation was running at roughly £16m per year. This was higher players are sodl before the end of their contracts to try and rescue some cash before they are sold off. The stadium debt which hit Ashley by surprise came to £45m, which had been costing the club £6.2m per year under the Hall ownership. That he didn't know was very poor. The other loans taken out by Shepherd, not as part of the stadium expansion were £13.1m borrowed form Northern Rock at 8.55%, to be completely paid off by July 2010 (this was the sponsorship money), paid off by Ashley £4.5m loan taken out in 2002 guaranteed against the training ground. This was at 2.25% over the base rate, and had £1.8m left to be paid off when Ashley took over. £8m loan taken out in August 2007, under Ashley , this one is interesting for anyone who can be bothered. It was used to take the Sky money early, rather than having to wait until they gave at the season end. The interest on this loan was at 11.7% !! £4m loan taken out in 2007 at 8.8% interest, paid off by Ashley £2.4m worth of loans taken out to buy "assets", to be paid off by August 2009. £1.5m interest free loan, linked to a "commercial agreement". There is no explanation of who or what thsi was about, but a similar deal was in place in the 1990s when S&N lent the club money at no interest whiel they had the pouring rights at teh ground. The land owed around the ground is included in the assets of the club. It isn't clear how much for exactly. The land IS an asset if you plan to do something with it, otherwise it is just land. Overall the club has liabilities of £16m rather than assets, as it actually owes more than the value of the ground and all the players put together. So the spare land is actually helping to make the figures look good at £16m !! The other issue aroudn the land is that to build on it would require to borrow money first. The size of the debt meant there was nothing left to borrow against. The ground, the training ground, the pouring rights, the future Sky money had already been used as back up. By the end the interest rates being charged were nearly 12%, even the banks knew how risky a lend it was and charged more. I wasn't sure getting the sponsorship money up front was a bad thing. The club was in such a desperate position they had to spend to avoid going down. What I hadn't realised until the last set of accounts form Shepherd was that the money was borrowed from Northern Rock. So on the surface it seemed we were getting money every yera from NR, and really we had got £13.1m loan and were paying them £2.5m a year I have a record of all the club accounts, if you want a copy then let me know. All I want is the information to be out there, so that some of us can ask questions

I will happily take down any of the figures I have quoted if you can show me where they are wrong. If any of those numbers are wrong then Shepherd will not be allowed to be a company director as he signed the accounts and gave them to Companies House. They don't like being lied to. Over to you, find me one, and I'll happily apologise, otherwsie I'll assume that really you accept them, and were just making your comment for a laugh.

Freddie Shepherd has claimed that he left Newcastle United on a sound financial footing. This is absolutely not true and cannot be allowed to stand as a statement of truth. In the last year that Shepherd and Hall were in control the club lost £32.9m - over £600,000 per week. In the 11 years the club was a PLC the highest retained profit the club made was £215,000. When Shepherd and Hall left Newcastle United they were each paid two years pay, so over £1m each, to go. They had written their own contracts to make that happen. Since 1996 Shepherd has been paid £5.9m by Newcastle United, Douglas Hall £5.4m. In the last 4 years Shepherd and Hall were in charge the wages went up 10% each year, while the team performance nose-dived. The club were left with a set of players on long, and lucrative contracts, a situation the club is still trying to recover from. During the same period, money coming in to the club remained roughly the same, while the Sky money increased dramatically. Shepherd and Hall did nothing to improve the income, just allowed Sky money to bail out their incompetence. In 2005 when the club has run out of financing options and wished to buy Michael Owen the sponsorship money from Northern Rock was taken early. Rather than getting a quarter of the money each year the club took it all at once. This has meant that in subsequent seasons no new cash has been available from sponsors. Worse was the fact that they borrowed the money from Northern Rock at 8.5% interest !! While Shepherd and Hall were in control the club paid out £32.4m in dividends, while at the same time making total losses of £114m. The debts for the ground extension committed the club to a payment of roughly £6.2m each year until 2016. If the club had not paid anything in dividends then the ground could now have been paid for, leaving no debts for Ashley, or any other subsequent owner to have to pay off. When Shepherd handed over control the club had £198,000 in the bank. There was an overdraft of nearly £11m. There was also £19m in season ticket money saved away. This had to cover paying a wage bill of around £60m for the next year All the figures quoted here are from Newcastle United club accounts issued by the club, or registered with Companies House. ++++++++ Ashley having to pay off the debts left to him cost him money, but it saved the club about £7m a year in interest payments. So the £32.9m loss that Shepherd's managed in his last year in "control" of the club would be reduced by that £7m. So lets say £26m on-going losses. Lets say he somehow reduced the wage bill, although I am unsure whether he could really have managed that before this summer. Lets be kind and say he reduced it by £5m, so a straight improvement of £5m, reducing losses to £21m. Maybe this figure is the £20m subsidy Ashley mentioned. He bought a club that was set up so that even when he cut out huge amounts of costs he was still going to have to put in £20m to stop it going bust. Ashley was unbelievably naive to not do any checking at all before he bought us. That he didn't know of the debt is amazing, that he didn't know we had spent the whole 4 year sponsorship deal on in 2005, and were actually now paying Northern Rock rather than them us, was slack. That he didn't know we had wages that went up on average over 10% every year for 11 years was stupid. That his predessor boasts about all this is sad. Ashley has made a fool of himself by not completely understanding the mess he inherited. His only redeeming feature is that he stopped the club having to go into administration, and likely relegation from the points deduction.

one at £5m a year three at £4m a year seven at £3m a year five at £2m a year four at £0.5m a year gives a wage bill of £50m for a squad of 20 players. Which would be £10 on the previous year, without counting the amount paid to all the other staff. The club say they have roughly 300 full time staff. Lets say they are on an average of £20,000 per year, and that comes to £6m. A total of £56m Carefully constructed bonuses should pay for themselves with extra performance bonuses from Sky. With the money coming in through tohe door looking to be about £95m-£100m in 2008 the wage bill is still too high.

A truly great effort at "competing" for Hearts, on a annual income of £10m .... http://www.football-finances.org.uk/hearts/debt2.5.gif

For the season ended June 2007 the wage bill was £62.5m It is pretty near impossible to work out how that number is made up. Try it. http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/payrol12.gif

Sorry

What Shepherd left was a club that was losing over £30m a year, had debts of £70m, had no assets they could borrow more money against, and had a set of players on long, lucrative contracts. Ashley could pay off the debt but the £30m annual losses with over paid players would have taken longer to sort out. http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/index.htm Under no circumstances can Shepherd be allowed anywhere near the club. The Hall and Shepherd families took out £34m out of our club in 11 years, before Ashley then bought their shares off them. Shepherd was a leech, who tried to take the club into administration while bleeding the club of cash.

Anyone who has any vague feeling that Shepherd coming back would be anything less than a disaster needs to understand the mess he left us in. Please have a look at http://www.football-finances.org.uk/newcastle/2007/index.htm If Ashley had not bought us we'd now have gone bust, we'd have had a relegation inducing points penalty. Shepherd did all that. Left huge wage bill, left huge, and increasing debt, him and his pal Douglas left with £34m of the clubs money from their time in charge. This does NOT include any money Ashley paid them for his shares. Walker Mafia (keep) Out

EU's fault, they said that Sky's coverage was a monoploy and that someone else had to be allowed to show some games. The competition woudl mean the price woudl come down. Previously £42 a month for Sky, for 92 games. Now £45 a month for 92 games from Sky, and £10 a month for another 40 odd fomr Setanta. Economics in action

Clearly he is an important squad member at the moment. When he is fit he has been picked, who ever our manager has been. He may not be Ronaldo but he works his bollox off the whole time, and gives support to attack and defence all the time. He is the sort of solid dependable player that O'Neill has traditionally built his winning sides around. He matches up with a Stan Petrov or an Alan Thompson at Celtic for example. As for a replacement well Jonas was bought int he summer, and he is the man. The issue then though is the lack of strength in depth again. The club manager should know his players, should be managing their expectations and should have a plan in place for the loss of any of them, be it through sudden transfer request or unexpected injury. That is what managers are supposed to do. I would rather he stayed, and am vaguely amused at him messing us aroudn at deadline time, rather than the other way around. Everyone seems to think that £9m is more than he is worth. That is cos we are still looking at transfer fees rfom a couple of years ago. Sky money has been bumped up, EVERY side has an extra £10m this year they can spend. Milner is a 22 year old, first choice player for a Premiership side, has over 120 Premiership appearances, what better CV can a player have?

Surely our goals conceded is slightly inflated by 4 games (Pompey, Villa, ManUtdx2) in which we gave up 30% of our season's conceded goals. Admittedly, the defense needs sorting, but perhaps it doesn't need the overhaul some people think. and should we ignore Spurs games, Reading at home, and Bolton away and take our goals scored down to 32, or less than a goal a game ? Bad/good results happen, you can't just ignroe them

our defence when we won in Feyenoord was O'Brien, Dabizas, Hughes and Griffin. Doubtful that even one of them would get in the best 10 Newcastle defenders of the last ten years. Must have been the coach

Sack, sack, whoever they may be We are the firing Toon Army And we will sack whoever we may get Cos we are the thick and delusional Toon Army

Newcastle fans should wind-up the commentators being singing for Keegan, then Shearer, then Jose, then Hughes, then Strachan, then Wenger, then Ferguson, then Moyes, then Hitzfeld, then McClaren, then Joe Harvey, then Souness, then Big Sam .....

For England, the tops are Greaves and Michael Owen. Greaves was the perfect finisher, Owen's speed and finishign has been fantastic. Overall though has to be Greaves 44 goals from 57 caps !! Greaves' overall stats are Years Club App - Goals 1957-1961 Chelsea 157 - 124 1961-1962 AC Milan 14 - 9 1961-1970 Spurs 321 - 220 1970-1971 West Ham 38 - 13

Sky sports - Ottmar Hitzfeld has confirmed he will be leaving Bayern Munich at the end of the season. The Bayern coach returned to the club less than a year ago and is under contract until the summer. There had been suggestions that he could extend his stay at the Allianz Arena, but Hitzfeld has opted to quit the current Bundesliga leaders. "I made my decision known to the club's officials three weeks ago," Hitzfeld told SID sports agency. "I want to leave the job at the end of the season. "I will now do all I can to win trophies for Bayern in the time left to me." Hitzfeld is now expected to become coach of the Switzerland national team when Kobi Kuhn leaves after Euro 2008. Swiss national team delegate Ernst Lammli has confirmed that informal talks have already talken place, while Bayern's executive manager Uli Hoeness expected Hitzfeld's departure in the summer.

6 of Sam's signings started today. The others were Given, Butt, Emre, Zog and Martins. Not convinced that he woudl be lookgin to offload any of those 5 that he inherited.

I'm pretty sure that Andy Carroll won't be playing for England by the time he's 20 and the majority of the Newcastle supporters will therefore write him off as crap. It's far easier for Allardyce to go and buy some unknown foriegner who will end up doing okay for a few games. As soon as the unknown foriegner is mentioned inthe press everyone will rush to CM and say how great he is, and everyone will be happy. That we continue to produce nowt form the academy will not matter, we've got Ashley's money, we're okay

Shearer has only ever played in the Premiership, and at interntational level. Not sure what he would learn by taking over at the likes of Hartlepool that would add to his ultimate ability to manage at a Premiership club.

I once saw us lose an end of season game 4-2 on a Tuesday evening at Wrexham. That was pretty hard to be happy about

yeah but we stuffed them !! Spurs only had 4 shots, one of their goals was a cross McFaul chucked in

Hardly an even comparison is it? How many seasons have Dunne and Richards played together? The backline today and in most other games this season has been brand new, in every single respect. Two signings of which were made with minutes to go until the end of the deadline! Agree about Sven being a better manager nevertheless. But if you can't give credit for the work Allardyce has done with the backline, as bad as it was for eleven minutes today, then it'll be difficult for you to credit him for anything. But what has improved ? The players are different, the players are individually more likable, but colldctively as a densive unit they are no better than last year's lot. The home results are roughly the same: We've been delighted with our home form but it hasn't changed, we just happened to have plaeyd no one any good. Away from home we have 4 poitns instead of 2 against the same sides. Nothing has changed. After 6 months in the job, (or being more kind and saying a thrid of the way into the season) nothing has changed. Even those unsure of how Allardyce woudl be admited he'd sort out the defence. Clearly he hasn't. Most people were worried about the perception that Bolton played HOOF football. When we have Viduka in the side there is a logic in playign liek that, even if I don't like it. To play HOOF at Martins and Owen is just madness. I've seen nothign yet to suggest Allardyce has moved us on. He may have given us the perception that things have changed by bringing in new faces. But the results haven't changed.

that and the loss at home to Wimbledon in ythe FA Cup in 88. Gazza and the kids shoudl have wont he Cup that year

Fabregas at the moment, but he's only 20 so by the time he gets to 21 or 22 he may be the best in the world