TRon

Big mouth managers are fine if they can back up their words a la Mourinho. I am just finding it hard to wrap my head around the idea that this was a side sent out to win this match.

What was the thinking behind tonight's line up? The official match thread has turned into a Martins debate, but I really want to reason out why we put out the team we did tonight. I was surprised to see Faye alongside Smith in midfield. I was surprised to see Ameobi alongside Martins up front. I was surprised we played what seemed to be a 4-4-2 formation when we least needed to play it. Basically I'm wondering, why didn't we do a "Derby" and kick the Gooner kids into submission?

So it ranges from shite to "fine". You couldn't quite bring yourself to say good, could you. "It's often shite, and it's sometimes..........alright....ish." Your sole purpose in this thread seems to be to remind everybody how shite Martins is, despite the fact you couldn't provide a better alternative to start when Owen's not fit (which is quite a lot of the time tbf). I don't know why Martins is coming in for so much stick on a night we could have lost by eight. We were outplayed and unless Martins was alone playing in a 0-0-1 formation, I don't see why he is getting so much stick. It's not my fault that he's third choice striker at the club, is it? If he carries on missing open goals, I'd start Smith ahead of him up front though, but at present I'm assuming Smith is starting in midfield. What do you mean IF he carries on missing open goals? He's shite according to you, so why give him a chance to "carry on" to miss more open goals?

No we wouldn't, we've got Alan Smith with his 3 goals in his last 90 appearances. We'll be fine. Quick question: Martins or Smith up front? Are you being serious? I say Owen. He could always have tapped one in with his crutch tonight. WTF was Sam thinking of starting Martins tonight instead??!!

So it ranges from shite to "fine". You couldn't quite bring yourself to say good, could you. "It's often shite, and it's sometimes..........alright....ish." Your sole purpose in this thread seems to be to remind everybody how shite Martins is, despite the fact you couldn't provide a better alternative to start when Owen's not fit (which is quite a lot of the time tbf). I don't know why Martins is coming in for so much stick on a night we could have lost by eight. We were outplayed and unless Martins was alone playing in a 0-0-1 formation, I don't see why he is getting so much stick.

On ther game itself tonight, once I saw the team selection I didn't fancy our chances much. We fell between two stools with that line up. Instead of dropping either/or Butt and Geremi we dropped both in the one match we needed genuine midfielders with physical presence. Then Ameobi is picked up front while Smith flounders in midfield next to Faye in a "let's see if this works..." experiment.

Excellent point! When Owen came back and was fluffing chances it was all about Owen needing a run of games, but martins is expected to just do the business right away. We have to accept that he is a different type of player yes and can be careless at times but he is still a very dangerous attacking player and when his confidence is high and he is playing regularly he is great. Sam needs to put his arm round him as he will probably be pretty low after tonight we need to keep his spirits up. God knows tissue paper man ain't coming to the rescue anytime soon. Busy faffing around with more surgical instruments in Munich. Point of order: I've never seen Martins string together a run of performances I would refer to as "great". I love the way Owen gets ripped to fucking bits for being an excellent player that's injury prone, whilst Martins is lauded for being decidedly average and fit. You are confusing two different scenarios tbh. Owen is the world class finisher, but he doesn't play much. Martins is erratic but if Owen isn't fit, who would you rather play up front from our current squad?

I'm surprised more people haven't picked up on this. The long ball game isn't my cup of tea but it can be effective to a limit. We just haven't got the players for it and we looked much better yesterday when we passed it around, unlike the Derby debacle.

Ashton is a decent target man but I would prefer Heskey because he's far more mobile. not only is he strong he will stretch teams, and is more of Anelka type, although without the goal threat. That would be my only concern, is he going to be as much use when Owen isn't playing?

Viduka is unlikely to be fit, so I am quite looking forward to seeing Alan Smith up front with Oba (hopefully). Not only did they link quite well yesterday, it will also take Smith out of midfield which will give the team a much better balance. Zog, Geremi, Butt and Milner will still have plenty of bite but a bit more flow and natural width.

I thought Milner was poor today. So many great chances to get behind the defence but his lack of pace meant he ended up cutting inside every time. Makes it quite easy for the defender when he knows you can only go one way.

Ok steamroller is a bit strong. Just wipe the floor with them then. Is that better?

Do you except though that all teams have one or two Derby like performances, and therefore we should wait and judge when it is more clear as to what kind of team we become? I mean the way some have went on over that defeat you'd think we'd played like that every game and lost every game and that we are always going to play like that when it is quite clearly we won't be. Liverpool fans are saying they should steamroller sides like Birmingham at home, Man Utd fans said they should be doing the same to sides like sunderland. Every team has an off day. We had one. There will be more. What is important is in between, how we do in between those games. 5 games in is far too early to start panicking just because we had an off day. I agree, but then did you hear me calling for the manager's head? Allardyce should be given time, but the way we set our stall out against Derby was so appalling, you would be hard pushed to find normal Newcastle fans accepting of it. If it was just one match, I would be just as scathing as you of the critics, but some of our line ups have been bewildering this season. In any case, I noticed a lot more emphasis on passing in this match and less resorting to the big hoof forward. I thought most of the players looked much better as a result, the likes of Viduka, Butt and Geremi especially. I thought we played to our strengths today, I'm not sure we've been doing that in previous matches. But like you said, it's early days.

In the interview before the match against West Ham, Sam Allardyce was saying that the Derby game was a match we should have won as well. He must be a Spurs fan then.

Butt had a very good game today, thought he was very good in the middle, along with Geremi.

It's arrogant shite like this that I normally associate with fans of the likes of spurs and which gives a club a bad reputation. What's arrogant about it? Derby are getting steamrollered if you hadn't noticed, and if we aren't good enough to do that, at least a battling point should have been the minimum. If you read the rest of what I said, in fact I even allowed for an unlucky defeat. If that's arrogance then pardon me for being arrogant.

To be fair, I've always rated Duff. I don't see the point in slagging him just because he was preferred to Zog under Roeder.

Derby was 3 points dropped no matter which way you look at it. The football today was much better but I hope to god we don't give such shite teams so much respect from now on. Big Sam's claim that a point would have been a good result still rankles, and I think he knows he shouldn't have said it. Teams like Derby should be steamrollered at home and beaten away. A point would be disappointing, an unlucky defeat annoying but accepted through gritted teeth. But to lose and look crap is not good enough. Those points will be hard to make up. Still no point in looking back, let's hope we learned and move on.

Isaid a few games back when everyone was complaining about Viduka that he was a player who does well when the ball is played to his feet. Today we passed better and it became evident just how strong and clever he is when he's not having to header 50 yd punts down the field. I think Smith looked much better up front as well, but then a few others have been making that observation last fewe games, that we should use him up there more.

Beye looks awesome. Not bad going forward, but absolutely rock hard in defence. Shrewd buy for Big Sam.

The football was a lot better today, we didn't lump it long and that was the key to Viduka's performance. He was immense with the ball played to his feet. Owen did well while he was on, and Smith looked much better up front, as did Zog in midfield. Milner has good tricks but doesn't get beyond the full back. I thought we looked a bit shaky in defence today, but we just about coped.

Big Sam's comments aside, I noticed that Benitez was the only Premier manager who was ungracious enough to even acknowledge Mourinho's exit from the Prem. Never realised he was this bitchy but for some reason I now feel they are there for the beating.

Personally I don't give a toss what Nicky Butt says, we have heard this loads of times before. I think we will have a big test against West Ham and if Big Sam was fearing the backlash from shite Derby after they got deservedly thrashed by liverpool, then West Ham should in theory be cacking their pants at the prospect of facing us after a loss.

Chelsea want attractive football, winning isn't enough any more. They should seriously consider re-hiring Gullitt.

I agree and we aren't, but remember, this is a getting to know you period for the manager and indeed the players. Trial and error if you like. Remember the draw with Villa? The manager said those 0-0s will lead to 1-0 wins. We achieved that against Wigan. When the manager said clean slate for everyone, I believe him. Those that are up to scratch will be used, those who aren't, will be discarded. He's gotten a few of his own players in, but he's making his mind up regarding the rest in my opinion and is experimenting quite a bit at the moment. I don't even think Owen is safe, or Martins, our two best forwards and most expensive players. When he brought on Feye and Beye the other night, I knew then that he's using these games as fact finding missions, even at the expense of results or rather wins. It's as if he was saying right, this game is beyond us or a draw will do, how can I benefit further, I'll bed my two new boys in.Even though the last thing our performance needed was defensive minds. He's always planning ahead and these games will tell him an awful lot. Well Big Sam giving up the fight sounds perverse to me. I was thinking right till the last 5 minutes if we can get one goal, we'll win this match, Derby are shite and will captulate given half a chance. Derby are a side who will taste defeat again and again this season. If Big Sam gave up the ghost as early as you seem to think then I'm disappointed.