Shak

Good post and it is very relevant the point you make about the pace. I would expect that if we sell Oba and get Gudjohnsen then we'll look to add another pacey option up front for when Owen isn't fit, as you say. With Gudjohnsen able to play a numbr of roles, he'll get plenty of games in attack or midfield even with another striker brought in to replace Oba. I advocated selling Owen for the reason that we won't be able to play 4-5-1, which is what Allardyce knows best, with him. I reckon we'll be seeing a number of different sytems next season, in which case a guy like Gudjohnsen would be very nice.

I don't think they were complaining after USA '94 mind. I forgot Dunga was national coach then. Was it not Perreira in 94, the guy who made a balls of last year's World Cup? Perreira was indeed mate, my post was relferring to the fact that they won the World Cup that year playing pretty poor football but I'm sure no Brazilians were moaning due to the fact they came home with the big pize. Again, brilliant in a Gruber voice. That's the fine line though. Play great stuff and lose, you might get a second chance. Play dull stuff and lose, you're off. Argentina the new Brazil anyway then Hans, I'm sure you'll agree?

I don't think they were complaining after USA '94 mind. I forgot Dunga was national coach then. Was it not Perreira in 94, the guy who made a balls of last year's World Cup?

Reading 2J's posts with the Hans Gruber accent and tone is fucking great fun. Post something long and thoughtful there 2J.

It's not so much the number of passes that made the Cambiasso goal special, it was the fact that they built it up with such brilliant teamwork. Ze Roberto's goal was a prime example of what I talk about with Brazil, knocking the ball about without really going anywhere then someone plays one quality ball and they're in.

does he have "the knack" lyke ? I've had to d/l the song so I can get it out of my head.

Am I the only one who get 'My Sharona' in my head every time I see Voronin's name?

Vic is thinking to himself "Oh yeah? Wel we'll just see about that now won't we..." r u spoking to is lyk?

Spot on, mate. Not exactly welcoming for new members is it? The reasons are obvious for it on a board this size though. The other way we had newbs starting shit threads the whole time, the forum was full of shit threads at times.

Been on for a couple of weeks now mate.

Would take Riquelme ahead of Deco, agreed. Watching last night, I think we might also be better served going for Diego instead of Deco. Very similiar playing style, but with his best years ahead of him.

Fucking cert to play useless and lose tonight after I've written this, but sure you'll have that. ================================ The New Brazil For as long as I can remember, Brazil have been held as the gold standard in professional football. With a swash-buckling style and a seemingly endless supply of genuinely world class players, they have at times simply brushed the opposition aside on the grandest stage of them all, The World Cup. They are what nations have aspired to be on the football pitch, playing with grace and beauty as they overwhelm their inevitably less talented opponents. With players such as Kaka and Ronaldinho still in their peak years, and exciting new stars like Robinho coming to prominence all the time, it would seem perhaps a tad strange to suggest that now is the time for a new super-power to emerge and be the envy of footballing nations worldwide. But it is a claim I make, nonetheless. Step forward, Argentina. While it would be easy to spend time extolling the virtues of players like Messi, Tevez, Riquelme and Mascherano, to name but a few, it is not simply the great players they have at their disposal now that makes them so fearsome. Football has changed the last 10 years or so. There is more emphasis now than ever on fitness and tactics in the game. Gone, despite the impressions given to us at St. James’ Park the last few years, are the days of putting 11 square pegs in 11 square holes and saying “Go out and play football.” In its place we’ve been introduced to severe attention to detail and the need for a strong work ethic in teams. This is where the Argentinians will overtake the Brazilians. Anyone who, like me, has been lucky enough to have a severe dose of the flu over the last couple of weeks will have seen some of the football Argentina have played in this year’s Copa America. The passing and movement has been phenomenal, players working and moving as a team as opposed to what we’ve been served by their Brazilian counterparts, which seems like little more than directionless ball retention while they wait for one of their impact players to do something special. You could argue that the Brazilians are not at full strength, but one need only look at last year’s World Cup for proof that this is as much a result of mentality and tactics as it is what particular players are on the pitch. While Brazil’s much lauded all-stars stumbled through the World Cup, Ronaldinho proving totally ineffective throughout due to not being able to influence the game in dangerous positions, before eventually going out with a whimper, Argentina produced by far the best football the tournament saw. Cambiasso’s goal against Serbia and Montenegro in the group stages is one of the greatest goals ever scored, and for me is the perfect representation of what modern day football should be all about. Players constantly moving, showing for the ball in midfield. Patient build up, one-touch football that gradually drags the opposition out of position and allows runners from midfield to exploit the space. In defence, they also possess a toughness not common in their Brazilian counterparts, which stops teams from having any chance of bullying them off the pitch. Once they’ve matched their opponents physically, their talents on the ball will inevitably start to show and win them the game. You could very easily ask the question ‘If they were so good, how did they get knocked out by Germany?’ Anyone who saw that particular match, however, will know that Germany only progressed due to a truly baffling display by the former Argentina manager who, with his team 1-0 up and looking good value to go on and put the game to bed, bizarrely proceeded to substitute Riquelme and replace him with a holding midfield player. With Argentina’s main man out of the picture, the game evened up a bit. With ten minutes to go Pekerman, the Argentinian coach, made his last change, replacing Crespo with Cruz, a like for like swap. Inevitably, Germany got a lucky break and scored the goal to send it to extra time and then penalties. Not only were Argentina without Riquelme for the crucial extra-time period, but they had also used up all their subs and couldn’t bring on Lionel Messi, who had been explosive throughout the tournament. From 1-0 up and coasting to out on penalties, I firmly believe that it was only such a managerial catastrophe that could have prevented them from winning that World Cup. It’s a lesson that I don’t expect will soon be forgotten, and with players like Messi and Tevez set to provide the spark for years to come, I would expect Argentina’s wait for a World Cup trophy won’t be too much longer. So if you fancy pulling a sickie tomorrow then I would thoroughly recommend watching Argentina vs Mexico tonight. For not only will you be watching what should be a tremendous semi final between two fierce rivals. You’ll be watching football as it should be played, the Argentinian way.

Vic is thinking to himself "Oh yeah? Wel we'll just see about that now won't we..."

That as close as you'll ever see Rich come to getting confrontational, making sure to apologise for it along the way.

Gudjohnsen will never be a truly top-end goalscorer, obviously, but the amount more that he contributes apart from goalscoring makes him the better option for me. When he's not scoring goals Oba isn't really up to much at all, is he? There's always the threat of his pace, but as teams get used to him they'll know they can funnell him into wide areas, knowing he hasn't got the skills to beat a man or put in an effective cross to be of any danger in wide areas.

He is lightyears ahead of Martins technically, that's true. Much better creatively with more vision as well. But Martins is way ahead of him in goalscoring, pace, strength, shooting, dribbling, and last but not least he's much younger. Bottom line is, Martins will get you far more goals and force defenders to sit back due to his pace, but he'll lose the ball and frustrate you as well. Gudjohnsen will sit deep and ensure more possession and will create more goals, but won't score as much. All depends what we need more. I'm a big Gudjohnsen fan, but he doesn't score nearly enough goals and I think Mourinho had the right idea when he played him in attacking midfield where he can use his touch, vision and creativity to set up others. I'd be happy enough playing him there ourselves, but I wouldn't want to lose Martins to get him. I think in a 4-3-3 both could play in the same team. I reckon Mourinho playing him in midfield was much more to do with the fact that he likes a big powerhouse (ala Drogba) up front with two fast winger types either side of him, and a generally direct style of play in the final third. Gudjohnsen is completely unsuited to either of those roles so midfield was the only place he figured to get a game. Played in the same position I reckon there'd be little difference in their goal return tbh. Gudjohnsen is a far better finisher than Oba, who still suffers from mass panic every so often in front of goal and is just as likely to hit the corner flag as the back of the net sometimes, while Gudjohnsen is a composed player. Dunno where this myth that Martins is a good dribbler has come from either, I've not seen it. With his pace though, there are a lot of defenders he can just knock the ball twenty yards past and go after it and there'll be no stopping him. The fact that he at no point figured that out last season does concern me a bit, as it doesn't say a lot about his footballing brain. I can recall a number of times I saw Oba with the ball in counter-attacks last year when he was one on one with the last man and it was just begging to be knocked into space and then thrashed at goal, only for Oba to try something fancy with the outside of the boot or something. Still, with so many areas where it should be theoretically easy for him to improve, I hope we keep hold of him.

A big step up in name or quality? Quality, particularly in the case of Shorey. I'm not sure that's the case mate, as I've said Heinze has been poor since he came back from injury and we'd be signing him in the hope that he's going to become the player he once was again, that's exactly what we done with Carr and look how that turned out. I'm not sure of Shorey as a player, he was excellent last season but at his age it could well be a one off, on the other hand he could be like Chimbonda and be a top player who took a while to develop and get noticed. Fully expect Shorey to be a one-season wonder myself. Reckon I'd take Bridge ahead of any of them, least question marks over him. I expect Heinze to do well if he gets a change of scenery and a gauranteed first team spot again, as losing his place to Evra while injured seems to have unsettled him.

In the short term Gudjohnsen would be a lot more use to us. Really hope we keep Oba though because I feel that in a few years he could be absolutely quality. He'll never work that occasional wild first touch out of his game IMO, but with his pace and power you can still be a top player with an occasionally dreadful first touch, as Etoo' for one has proved. We really do need a Gudjohnsen type player though, someone to get on the ball and pull the strings in the attacking third. Tough choice.

It's cast in stone he'll score against us in one of the derbies, don't see what people are so happy about.

A big step up in name or quality? Quality, particularly in the case of Shorey.

We'd be absolutely signing with either of those two, both a big step up from what Baines or Shorey would bring if we went for them. I'd just prefer Heinze myself, better defensively and would add some much needed bite to the team.

That's the spirit.

like Stevieintoon vs. Sima? Dunno, when did that happen? I'll be pulling for you when the time comes Vic, God knows why mind you.

Keep him until the inevitable Porridge-Vic flame wars begin at least. We then have a forum decathalon between the two with the loser banished forever.