merlin

This - good post.

This is totally correct - the 92/93 side would easily destroy this lot. I would be surprised if they failed to score at least 3 times without reply. Sellars created far more danger than Jonas EVER will, and as for scoring goals, Rob Lee would make him look like an amateur. Kelly, Peacock and Andy Cole would have had a field day against the current side's defence..... Nolan this season will outscore Lee from that season. Who played LW most of that season anyway? Didn't sign Sellars until later on. Can't think. IF Nolan outscores Lee from that season(and its a big if), it will be because of 2 things ; 1.The current league is crap compared to the 92/93 League 2. Nolan has been in the side since AUGUST - Lee didn't join the club until late October 92. You are surely not trying to put Nolan in the same category as Lee are you ? If so, then either your memory is very short, or you can tell the rest of us what it is you are drinking - must be a new brew and very strong....! As for the wing, we had Sheedy on the left and Franz Carr on the right for most of the early games and even Carr was more effective than Jonas.. Sheedy was at the end of his career, which is why KK signed Sellars. Course I'm not, just picking up on the goalscoring midfielder comment. And I completely disagree on the Championship being weaker than Division One back then. You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree - the last 15 years have led to the syndrome of the cream rising to the top even MORE than it did back then because the Prem has become more powerful and wealthy ; there are NO good teams in this years' Championship and that INCLUDES NUFC. If any of the CCC sides currently in the promotion positions go up, they will be relegated unless they have massive surgery to their sides and most can't afford it. Back in 93, KK added just a couple of players to his promotion side and finished 3rd ; I say again, they were STREETS ahead of this or any other CCC side today . That argument is nonsense, if the prem is more powerful, it becomes more attractive to be in because of the money, making the entry division even more competitive. Thats basic economics. There is sense in saying that the relative difference between the leagues has got wider because of the increased money to the top league. That relative difference has been caused by the influx of the best players in the world into the top clubs, this doesnt affect the standard of championship football. Further, newly promoted clubs are doing better at staying in the top flight, with last year this being the case particularly. Financial lessons have been learnt etc. Also, fitness has moved on to such an extent that time on the ball has reduced massively, the pace of the game has increased dramatically making any meaningful comparison of the abilities of players across nearly 20 years as utterly redundant. Most players look better when given space and time on the ball. For a few of our players back then, you could argue that if they were plying their trade in the modern game, they'd be better than the current squad members. Then again, we never saw them with less time on the ball, playing more organised teams, so in reality its hard to tell. As with most aspects of life, some things have got better, some worse and I totally disagree with your assessment about players' fitness etc. Apart from anything else(and I was around to see this) the England side of 1970 in Mexico had to play Brazil at mid-day at Guadalajara in temps around 40C - but they controlled large parts of the game and gave the Brazilians their hardest match of the tournament - and Brazil 1970 were probably the best Brazilian side of all time. Compare this to the lacklustre efforts of the 2004 side in Portugal, playing at night against the host nation, losing after being outplayed in extra time ; their much-vaunted 'iconic' Captain was no inspiration either, just as he flopped badly in the WC against Brazil 2 years earlier.... Also, in 1970, W.Germany and Italy played a titanic game which went into extra time, and Beckenbauer was even playing with his arm in a sling yet both sides were still giving a fast, high level performance right to the end.. Your argument about players being much fitter etc nowadays is fatuous and used by many so-called exponents of the modern game to try to justify the ridiculous wages the players receive. Are you seriously saying that the current NUFC side would beat the 1950s FA Cup winning teams ? That the likes of Milburn(renowned for his terrific speed and power of shot), Mitchell(who once caused his Arsenal full-back opponent to be taken from the field after injuring himself in a vain effort to tackle him) George Robledo(whose scoring record was only equalled in 1994 by Andy Cole)or Jimmy Scoular would not have had enough up their sleeves to murder this lot ? There may be more RUNNING done now by players, but the basic skills have declined markedly ; also, FIFA have intervened so much in the physical contact side of the game that modern players would cry like babies if they had been on the end of a tackle from the likes of Scoular and Harvey - in fact, they couldn't even handle the likes of Norman Hunter or Tommy Smith from the 70s...... Also, we haven't even touched on the distractions that modern players fall foul of because of their crazy wages........ As with everything else, you are entitled to your opinion but I totally disagree with part of your post and definitely with the theory about KKs 1993/4 side not finishing in the top half. History didn't begin in 1997, despite the powers-that-be wishing it did - Newspeak is alive & well....

Is this really any sort of surprise ? Ashley has been dragging his feet over the sale for months and he clearly wants to try to hang on & see if the club gets promoted so he can sell at a higher price and recoup some losses. Unfortunately for him(as so often seems to happen with his speculative decisions), there is very little guarantee that his plan will work. Yes, he has put in another 20m, but even if this is used on team strengthening, it will be Jan at the earliest before this happens and it takes time to bed players into a side. Also, his decision to appoint Hughton full-time is a gamble which may not work out in the long run - those of us old enough to remember the Richard Dinnis appointment, forced on the club by the players after Gordon Lee left in 77, know that there is often an effort made by players to get their man into the job by giving as much as they can on the field, which has basically been the situation at SJP since the start of this season....once Dinnis got the job full-time, the players' performances began to drop off(although the directors also dragged their feet in backing Dinnis's efforts to sign players...sound familiar..!!?). Only time will tell if Hughton can continue to motivate these players but the past 4 or 5 games have not looked promising from that angle.His tactics also leave room for questions.... I still believe that the club will not make significant progress until Ashley has gone - they MAY get promoted but they will struggle to stay up if so, and he is unlikely to spend the necessary cash to transform the side ; top players will also be reluctant to join the club unless they can see that the pantomime regime has ended.

This is totally correct - the 92/93 side would easily destroy this lot. I would be surprised if they failed to score at least 3 times without reply. Sellars created far more danger than Jonas EVER will, and as for scoring goals, Rob Lee would make him look like an amateur. Kelly, Peacock and Andy Cole would have had a field day against the current side's defence..... Nolan this season will outscore Lee from that season. Who played LW most of that season anyway? Didn't sign Sellars until later on. Can't think. IF Nolan outscores Lee from that season(and its a big if), it will be because of 2 things ; 1.The current league is crap compared to the 92/93 League 2. Nolan has been in the side since AUGUST - Lee didn't join the club until late October 92. You are surely not trying to put Nolan in the same category as Lee are you ? If so, then either your memory is very short, or you can tell the rest of us what it is you are drinking - must be a new brew and very strong....! As for the wing, we had Sheedy on the left and Franz Carr on the right for most of the early games and even Carr was more effective than Jonas.. Sheedy was at the end of his career, which is why KK signed Sellars. Course I'm not, just picking up on the goalscoring midfielder comment. And I completely disagree on the Championship being weaker than Division One back then. You are entitled to your opinion but I disagree - the last 15 years have led to the syndrome of the cream rising to the top even MORE than it did back then because the Prem has become more powerful and wealthy ; there are NO good teams in this years' Championship and that INCLUDES NUFC. If any of the CCC sides currently in the promotion positions go up, they will be relegated unless they have massive surgery to their sides and most can't afford it. Back in 93, KK added just a couple of players to his promotion side and finished 3rd ; I say again, they were STREETS ahead of this or any other CCC side today .

This is totally correct - the 92/93 side would easily destroy this lot. I would be surprised if they failed to score at least 3 times without reply. Sellars created far more danger than Jonas EVER will, and as for scoring goals, Rob Lee would make him look like an amateur. Kelly, Peacock and Andy Cole would have had a field day against the current side's defence..... Nolan this season will outscore Lee from that season. Who played LW most of that season anyway? Didn't sign Sellars until later on. Can't think. IF Nolan outscores Lee from that season(and its a big if), it will be because of 2 things ; 1.The current league is crap compared to the 92/93 League 2. Nolan has been in the side since AUGUST - Lee didn't join the club until late October 92. You are surely not trying to put Nolan in the same category as Lee are you ? If so, then either your memory is very short, or you can tell the rest of us what it is you are drinking - must be a new brew and very strong....! As for the wing, we had Sheedy on the left and Franz Carr on the right for most of the early games and even Carr was more effective than Jonas.. Sheedy was at the end of his career, which is why KK signed Sellars.

This is totally correct - the 92/93 side would easily destroy this lot. I would be surprised if they failed to score at least 3 times without reply. Sellars created far more danger than Jonas EVER will, and as for scoring goals, Rob Lee would make him look like an amateur. Kelly, Peacock and Andy Cole would have had a field day against the current side's defence.....

I'm don't get too carried away either way by the football side of things but for me at the moment I'm not taking too much interest in the football as I simply find Ashley being in control too depressing. All I ask for as a football fan is hope and with Ashley in charge there is no hope! Two things I would pick you up on is when you say football works in cycles, well it doesn't for Newcastle as we haven't won a domestic trophy since 1955 which is disgusting for a club the size of Newcastle. Few years back I read the book about Newcastle not winning anything for 50 years and it’s unbelievable how badly this club has been mismanaged over the years! My last point is also related to your second point about whether we have been spoilt lately as we haven't been relegated for 16 years. You and other people on here should have more pride/confidence in the club/city, not being relegated is least we deserve! For the last 5 years we have been getting the 2nd/3rd largest crowd in the country! Is not being relegated now a barometer of success for the club? This is why I want Ashley out because of the negative influence he is having on the whole club including the fans! To see fan expectations being lowered to such a degree is nothing short of a travesty! I agree totally with this, and I speak as one who was supporting the club long before most on here were born. If those who moan about fans criticizing the club's lack of success could have heard the views of many old fans I met 40 years ago , they would have had a heart attack ! Many fans who were following the club in the 40s & 50s had dim views about the skills level in the side that had just won the Fairs Cup for goodness sake ; I found it surprising but I certainly wasn't shocked by it because they had undoubtedly been watching a great team and therefore were, in my opinion, well able to tell whether a side had real class or not and were entitled to their opinion. Much of the essence of this thread is caused by the fact that there is now less tendency for people to have a mind of their own and politicians are responsible for this because they ALL want to give the impression that the world/policies/countries are all the same- they do this because they don't want the voters questioning whether they should be making a better job of things... In the football sense, this translates as ' everybody has a bad spell, so WE are due one and you all have to put up with it..' Never mind the fact that, as Macphisto says, the club has not won a domestic trophy for 44 years DESPITE being one of the best-supported in the UK since WW 2 ; never mind the fact that fortunes have been wasted on mediocre players, idiotic decisions made by useless directors and allegations of corruption that surrounded the club over the years... No, people have a RIGHT and indeed a duty , to hold the club to account ; what gets me is that those who complain about 'disloyalty' etc are probably the first ones who would complain if they thought they were getting ripped off by a holiday company or car firm. The club has NO DIVINE RIGHT to expect its supporters to swallow all they dish up without complaint and the fact that it has gone so long WITHOUT making a real effort to run itself properly indicates that they are well aware that many fans will put up with rubbish, both on and off the field. At the moment, the club is in a mess because of an owner who knows NOWT and players who basically couldn't give a stuff because they are totally isolated from the fans; in the 50s, Milburn & Co had to travel to the game on the bus with them sometimes, so they knew they'd get an earful if they hadn't done the business by at least trying hard. The current situation is the result of bad decisions by Shepherd & Co because the club would have been a magnet for many far wealthier people than Ashley IF it had been run properly... In addition, I do believe that, crazy as it sounds, there is something in the words of Terry Mac after we blew the title in 96 - he believed that the club was 'cursed' and over the years, there is no doubt that some strange things have happened ; injuries to key players at crucial times(Shearer, Tony Green, even Geoff Allen, a great winger from the Fairs Cup days) etc etc as well as games like the Man U at SJP in 96 when we absolutely blew them away and lost ; the Blackburn & Liverpool away games that season... OK, maybe just coincidence, but luck plays a part in success - nevertheless, bad decisions have played their part. Once Ashley goes, its time for the club to DELIVER ; they have failed for too many years and there are many fans who gave up on them years ago - we used to have waiting list for Season tickets which was over 20,000 strong..........

That makes at least 6 players needed if promotion is achieved unless the team is to go straight back down, and even in this league only the midfield is up to the job apart from having no creativity. Nowhere NEAR good enough....

I said after the 0-4 at Ipswich that the team were getting results so no more could be asked of them, but even then I knew there would be a drop-off in performances eventually. The weaknesses in the side have been there for 2 years and now other teams in this league(which some on here thought was a cake-walk because of early results)have begun to suss out the cracks after watching us play for several games. Jonas is not the answer on the flanks and I don't rate Lua-Lua either from what I've seen of him so there is not ONE decent winger at the club ; the forwards are too similar, as I said after Forest and lack pace(which is a comment that could be applied to many in the team). The only player who is really worth decent money is Enrique and as has been said, I wouldn't be surprised to see him sold soon. Once this team goes behind, it struggles because there isn't the raw pace in the side to catch the opposition out on breaks from defence ; all they have to do is score first and soak up unimaginative attacks, although Nolan did equalize in this match, highlighting once again that he, a midfield player, is the main goal threat. The club is fortunate that WBA also lost - KK's team of 92/93 would, like last time, have been out of sight of other challengers by now, and half-decent results over the last 4 games would have seen this side in a good position. They are clearly not up to being back in the Prem yet and until the club is either sold or receives much-needed investment by its owner, nothing will change quickly. Play-offs the most realistic target at present.

Had enough possession in 2nd half to win 3 games ; failed because of 2 problems which will continue to bedevil the side's progress until they are addressed - 1. 2 strikers(whichever combo plays up front)who are too similar - a quick agile player is needed alongside the likes of Carroll in order to take advantage of knock-downs etc. 2. Poor supply from the wings - balls slung in from midway between halfway line and by-line are useless ; meat & drink to defenders, and Forest's won most of them in the box. Jonas is NOT a good winger ; he LOOKS good when he gets the ball around the halfway line, but doesn't create danger in the last quarter of the field where it matters. He carries the ball well, but cannot cross either accurately or speedily to save his life and he lacks that killing burst of pace which gets the best flank men past the fullback and then deliver a dangerous, swinging cross into the forwards. In short, he is not direct enough. Sadly, he is the only winger of any consequence which the club has, so he is the one on whom the spotlight inevitably falls when the subject of supply to the forwards is discussed. Back in the 70s, there was a common joke about Stewart Barrowclough, the side's winger in the Supermac days ; fans used to say 'open the gates and he'll run straight through' because Barrowclough tended to use his pace all the time...however, whilst he had his faults, he was still far more dangerous than Jonas ever is, and we beat some great teams by using his pace and directness, Leeds and Liverpool among them. We will not see the best of Carroll & Co until they start getting DECENT crosses into the box from the by-line - I cannot see this happening with the current personnel, and we will continue to lose or draw games that should be won because if it. Scunthorpe will be another tough test.....

Dave(and plenty of others)have hit the spot that I was making - I will NOT respond any further to Mr Mandias' post - he isn't worth it.......

Apart from the fact that you're almost certainly wrong – no black club managers in Brazil? Prove it – what the f*** is this supposed to prove? They're even racist in Brazil so it's OK to be racist in the UK? Them nig-nogs is too stupid to be managers? Try engaging your brain before posting. Try GETTING a brain before posting - I have seen some crap from you before( I distinctly remember you calling Australia the arse side of the world when currently, more Brits than ever before are desperately trying to get into the place to escape the wonderful EU you so love, while the Aussie Dollar is going to be par with the Greenback before next April...then again, you probably didn't DO Geography when you were at school..). DON'T put words into my mouth Mr Mandias - Are you suggesting I am racist ? If so, come out and identify yourself and put it to the test ; I hope you have the proof, because it could cost you big-time... HAS THERE EVER BEEN A BLACK NATIONAL TEAM MANAGER IN BRAZIL ? That is what I was saying - YOU TELL ME WHO IT WAS if so ..? YOU prove it. I won't have clowns like YOU accusing me of racism - people like you need putting in their place because you have a twisted agenda ; the days when the likes of you could throw accusations of racism around to keep people quiet are coming to an end and NOT before time. IDIOT.

Brazil, one of the most multicultural nations on earth, has not got(or ever had, as far as I know) a black manager - you can bet your life that had a black guy like Pele proved to be a top class manager, they would have appointed him. Barnes' rant is yet more reverse-racist blackmail. As people have said, Ince had a go and fluffed it ; doesn't mean ALL black players will be bad managers but I don't believe Barnes has a case. Time all this tripe was treated with the contempt it deserves TBH.

Right on the button - this side are not in the same class as KK's 92/93 promotion team ; even the midfield, supposedly the best part of the side, is mediocre and one paced. Promotion is still a long way off in my view and the Play-offs would be a success bearing in mind the problems surrounding the club. Defence is the best part of the team by an absolute mile. Coloccini ; Taylor ? The former is not as good as even Steve Howey was as a CB and Taylor is about on a par with Kevin Scott..... The 2 fullbacks are OK, but I wouldn't swap Venison or Beresford for the current pair.

I think this is true. I worry that without significant investment the best we can hope to be is a yo-yo club. I'd feel more comfortable if I knew a few more positive things about Moat and his vision/plan for the club other than that he's had a struggle to get the overdraft guaranteed and will appoint his mate Alan Shearer. Agreed - people should avoid being drawn into the trap of thinking that you can have either money OR stability ; NUFC needs BOTH and without it will be just another middle ranking Prem club - at BEST.

Right on the button - this side are not in the same class as KK's 92/93 promotion team ; even the midfield, supposedly the best part of the side, is mediocre and one paced. Promotion is still a long way off in my view and the Play-offs would be a success bearing in mind the problems surrounding the club.

Good post Macca, and sums up most of my views on the matter; KK is not the man for the current situation in which the club finds itself unless it is taken over by someone very wealthy who could indulge his transfer requirements, and lets face it, there has been little sign of that happening. As you say, it is going to be a long job to put the club to rights and there is a need for strong foundations to be put in place ; Hiddink would be a great choice, but I have doubts as to whether he would accept such a challenge at his age. The club needs all the excess emotion taking out of it and the fans need to accept that a degree of hard-nosed(in the best sense)professionalism will be required by those who will eventually take over the running of the place - someone as CEO in the same mould as Peter Robinson during Liverpool's great days who will deal with all the off-field stuff in a quiet and professional way without all the hubris that Shepherd displayed(or the nepotism), and leave the playing side to the manager/coaches. The scouting and Youth systems need the best available people recruiting so that the club eventually has the ability to compete for, and get, the best young players available. Mountains of work to be done, and unless it would be for a short-term contract while all that was put in place, I'm afraid that KK's days as manager are now over.

Totally disagree - there would have been ANOTHER bone of contention further down the line had he given way on this ; do you seriously think any Top 4 manager would have stayed in these circumstances, or indeed, any manager with a sense of self-preservation ?

Why is anyone surprised by all this ? I never had any doubt that, despite his short fuse and tendency to pettiness, KK was right to resign AND to bring a case against Ashley & Co. The fact that Wenger and Ferguson also backed his stance added to the strength of his argument - neither has any brief to be in his corner unless they had heard about the circumstances of his departure. The club have behaved disgracefully and have attempted to deceive both the fans AND the wider football world - this episode will ensure that, until Ashley and his seedy sidekicks exit SJP for the last time, no manager of repute will take the job and the club will fail to progress. The result of this case means that the club will remain a poisoned chalice until structural changes occur - and the risk of losing what decent players that remain will grow... I cannot believe how incredibly stupid Ashley has been to allow this situation to develop - anyone with half a brain, even if wrong, would have given KK the 2m in order to keep the case from developing and to keep his own reputation(or what little is left of it..!) from being trashed. Totally incredible, but hardly surprising - would YOU buy a used Football Club from this man..? If we start losing, a long hard few months beckon....

Tony Blair's claim to be a Newcastle fan is about as genuine as everything else he utters. i.e.Total c--p.. He said he used to 'watch Jackie Milburn while sitting in the Popular side'...everyone knows there were NO SEATS there before the East Stand was built...he said this at a time when we were supposed to be every fans' 'Second Team' because he thought it might be worth a few votes in 97..Oh wait - so THAT'S why he got in..!!

This is actually a very good point - Gillespie was never the same after that injury and his loss was crucial. However, my pinpoint of when the title was blown was the March game with Man U at SJP ; we totally out-played them for most of the game and failed to convert any chances...as the game went on it was obvious that the momentum was slipping away and they went from being a shell-shocked side to one which suddenly gained belief that they could get something from the game and, of course, the arch-villain Cantona did the damage.. Had we scored in the first half I reckon we would have won by 2 clear goals and their heads would have dropped for the rest of the season. They suddenly began to believe they could do it, and we started to believe we might blow it, which is what happened. The result at Blackburn especially, was a sign of nerves creeping in - both on AND off the field..

Nonsense - Hamman hated Gullit ; it was because they didn't get on and that the Board was, to quote Hamman, 'Average, therefore the club was average', that Hamman left. Also, people should remember that Dalglish was NOT given the financial free reign that Keegan had in his first Premiership years ; the club became a PLC and had to stick to a budget for team strengthening - that was the reason Keegan quit, he knew he wouldn't be able to spend money in the same way as he had before. Don't forget that NUFC were lying 6th in the Prem when KK went, Dalglish managed to get the side to finish second against all the odds. His bust up with the Board was what did for him, nothing else. He was unlucky with injuries, esp to Shearer because Tomasson had looked great alongside Al in the pre-season games - the injury ruined what could have been a great career for JDT because he was obliged to play CF and he was NEVER that. That he was a good player was proven at Milan later....

You share my opinion on this - the players liked Dalglish but he was hated by the media because he was suspicious of them, with good reason.. He DID buy some excellent players but the problems were off the field. As I have said before, the way the Gillespie sale to Boro collapsed(due, reputedly, to comments by Fletcher to the Press)caused a furious row between Dalglish & Fletcher and it was this which was the reason for his untimely departure. I reckon he would have got the club into a Top 5/6 position again within a couple of years - he was very unlucky that Shearer got injured at Everton before 97-98...those who whinged about 'dour football' were probably like the fans who did the same when Lee took over as manager, yet within 6 months, the team was scoring goals for fun and reached the LC Final & FA Cup quarters, with the fans singing 'Gordon Lee's B & W Army'..... The team Dalglish inherited was beginning to show weaknesses by the summer of 97 with Ginola disenchanted, Gillespie never the same after that wonderful tackle by Neville(P)at Man U, and weaknesses in defence/midfield. He also had to re-start the Reserves/Juniors, disbanded by KK, so it was a bigger job than it looked. Shepherd did as he was told and fired him two games into the season after we had not lost and drawn at Chelsea - we have never really recovered from this apart from the 3 good seasons with SBR and we still haven't won anything ; I am willing to bet that we WOULD have picked up a trophy had Dalglish been allowed to stay another 3 years.

When it comes to hold up play, linking up, and heading ability Carroll pisses on Shola from a great height tbh. Agreed, and he is young enough to get better - unlike said Shola.. Admittedly haven't seen him strike the ball often enough to comment on that part of his game.

Agree with much of this - as the side is currently doing the business in a difficult situation, Hughton is obviously doing a decent job ; the crunch will come when the side hits a bad patch - if he brings them out of it, all well & good but if not and they fall away, then maybe it would be time to think of other options. If the side gets promoted, it would be hard not to wonder whether Hughton would be up to it in the much tougher world of the Prem, and whether he could get Ashley to strengthen the side if he is still the owner ; failure in either direction would be fatal, but I'm not in the camp that thinks its Shearer or nobody - the best man available for the job should be sought.