merlin

For once I think we disposed of an old player at the right time, rather than buying an old player at the wrong time. Wouldn't take Beye back. Agreed - yesterday's man now ; younger RB needed. Like the idea of Doyle, though, but Wolves would have to go down.

kk didn't have to make many tough decisions. kelly wasn't good enough and peacock left on compassion. Not one Newcastle fan thought Kelly wasn't good enough to at least be given a chance in the PL, the lad had just banged in 28 goals or something, including a hattrick in his last appearance. That was a brave and tough decision by KK. The line we got from the club was that Peacock was sold because of some birth defect with his new born, not sure that was the real reason, doesn't seem too much logic in it, why the need to move to London ? Both he and his wife were grown adults and had no need to be around their family for support, it's not as if his wife would have had to work to make ends meet. He was sold for football reasons, and again a brave decision as Peacock had been one of our best players but the signing of Cole had signalled his departure. KK also got rid of the likes of Sheedy, Killer and Micky Quinn, all whom had seen their better days but he was ruthless in jetisoning them. There are many clubs that are happy to reward the bulk of their playing staff who got them up with the chance to prove they can perform at the top level, KK did not take any passengers with him as he brought the club up. We have to do the same again. Great post - I mentioned this about Kelly a few days ago when saying that I wouldn't have Lovenkrands in the side if we got promoted to the Prem. As you say afar, most fans were shocked when KK let Kelly go - even SJH, although backing KKs decision, personally assured Kelly he would always be welcome at SJP, and thanked him for his great contribution over 2 seasons(his goal against Pompey kept us up in '92). I made the point that Kelly was a better player than Lovenkrands, both in his goals scored and all round team contribution - AND he was 3 years younger... KK had seen how ruthless Shankly could be at Liverpool, when he got rid of the likes of St.John and Yeats when he thought they were past it - even though they had helped him bring Liverpool from being a run-of-the-mill Div 2 side to one of the best in England ; Keegan was right to do what he did and that is exactly what we will need to do if promoted because there are several players who are just not good enough for the top league. Whether this happens or not depends on either Ashley being prepared to fork out the funds to replace them, or his replacement as owner(in the unlikely event of him selling)doing the same. There is also the question of the manager's backbone too....! kelly and loven are different style players in vastly differing teams so it's diffiuilt to say who was better. (i'd like to know how many loven would have got in that team) kk didn't get rid of killer till 2004 when he was well past it as was sheedy when he left. we did keep players who seemingly werent up to it and only got rid when we could (killer,scott,o'brien) 'Kelly and Loven'...difficult to say who was better..'... For you maybe, but not for me - I'd be interested to see if KK would have retained Lovenkrands after promotion, and I wouldn't bet much on his doing so.

kk didn't have to make many tough decisions. kelly wasn't good enough and peacock left on compassion. Not one Newcastle fan thought Kelly wasn't good enough to at least be given a chance in the PL, the lad had just banged in 28 goals or something, including a hattrick in his last appearance. That was a brave and tough decision by KK. The line we got from the club was that Peacock was sold because of some birth defect with his new born, not sure that was the real reason, doesn't seem too much logic in it, why the need to move to London ? Both he and his wife were grown adults and had no need to be around their family for support, it's not as if his wife would have had to work to make ends meet. He was sold for football reasons, and again a brave decision as Peacock had been one of our best players but the signing of Cole had signalled his departure. KK also got rid of the likes of Sheedy, Killer and Micky Quinn, all whom had seen their better days but he was ruthless in jetisoning them. There are many clubs that are happy to reward the bulk of their playing staff who got them up with the chance to prove they can perform at the top level, KK did not take any passengers with him as he brought the club up. We have to do the same again. Great post - I mentioned this about Kelly a few days ago when saying that I wouldn't have Lovenkrands in the side if we got promoted to the Prem. As you say afar, most fans were shocked when KK let Kelly go - even SJH, although backing KKs decision, personally assured Kelly he would always be welcome at SJP, and thanked him for his great contribution over 2 seasons(his goal against Pompey kept us up in '92). I made the point that Kelly was a better player than Lovenkrands, both in his goals scored and all round team contribution - AND he was 3 years younger... KK had seen how ruthless Shankly could be at Liverpool, when he got rid of the likes of St.John and Yeats when he thought they were past it - even though they had helped him bring Liverpool from being a run-of-the-mill Div 2 side to one of the best in England ; Keegan was right to do what he did and that is exactly what we will need to do if promoted because there are several players who are just not good enough for the top league. Whether this happens or not depends on either Ashley being prepared to fork out the funds to replace them, or his replacement as owner(in the unlikely event of him selling)doing the same. There is also the question of the manager's backbone too....!

The problem with the last line is that if Hughton fails, we either get relegated or then have to try to recruit a manager mid-season when the rules prevent you from poaching another club's manager - and the ones currently employed are most likely to be the best ones......

You've missed Lovenkrands from your list - unless this was intentional? Kuyt's a hard worker, but he isn't good enough to be play upfront at Premiership level - that's why Rafa has shipped it out on the right. He's awful there too. If you think Kuyt is awful, just wait until you see the likes of Lovenkrands in the Prem - I missed him out on purpose because I don't consider him good enough for the Prem. KK let David Kelly go after we won promotion despite him being the club's top scorer because he didn't think Kelly was good enough for the Prem - and believe me, Kelly was a better player than Lovenkrands and was younger too. People thought John Tudor was 'awful' playing alongside Supermac, but Macdonald appreciated the space Tudor created for him by his selfless running ; Kuyt is a similar player, but more skillful - his goals record with Liverpool averages at 1 per 3 matches over 4 seasons - are you saying that Lovenkrands will do that in the Prem? And, as for Rafa not playing him up front, it seems to me that Rafa's judgment is being questioned by a number of Liverpool players right now - don't expect him to be there next season...! That is also the reason why I think Kuyt could be bought - he has been there 4 years, there are going to be changes and players like a new challenge..he is also approaching 30, so the fee wouldn't be too high for Ashley..!! We've all seen him play in the Premiership, he played 8 games last season you know ...and what did he do? Do you see something in him that Schalke didn't ? German clubs rarely make mistakes when giving players free transfers or deciding they are surplus to requirements.. He is not going to get any better at his age, so I would be interested in your view as to whether you think he will score 15 goals next season ? He scored 3 goals in 8 games. Not bothered what happened at Schalke, because that's nothing to do with Newcastle United. I prefer to watch the player and judge him on his performances. He was decent in the 8 games he played last season in the Premiership in difficult circumstances, so there's no reason I can see that he shouldn't be kept on as backup next season, and no of course I don't expect a backup player to score 15 goals. ..So if you consider him a back-up player, then who do you think that NUFC are going to be able to get to go up front better than Kuyt ? There's a hint of unrealism about this because a) you consider Lovenkrands, a player older than Kuyt, to be a better bet in the Prem despite the fact he has played only 8 games there and Kuyt has played 4 seasons with a consistent scoring record ; also, you say you are not bothered about what happened at Schalke - a bit arrogant, don't you think ? Schalke are a better supported club than Newcastle United in Germany and are more respected in European football than NUFC...perhaps if Allardyce had been MORE bothered about what happened at Man City with Barton, we wouldn't have ended up with a player who has been a constant liability and cost us a fortune in wasted wages etc. Lovenkrands would not have reached the age of 30 and be playing for a CCC club after being given a Free from the only major club(unless you consider Rangers a top club) he has played for, unless he lacks something at the top level - and that is where NUFC should be aiming. I notice you didn't address my point about David Kelly, and that DID happen at NUFC and is more relevant to the current situation author=fraser link=topic=68253.msg2253973#msg2253973 date=1269437174] You've missed Lovenkrands from your list - unless this was intentional? Kuyt's a hard worker, but he isn't good enough to be play upfront at Premiership level - that's why Rafa has shipped it out on the right. He's awful there too. If you think Kuyt is awful, just wait until you see the likes of Lovenkrands in the Prem - I missed him out on purpose because I don't consider him good enough for the Prem. KK let David Kelly go after we won promotion despite him being the club's top scorer because he didn't think Kelly was good enough for the Prem - and believe me, Kelly was a better player than Lovenkrands and was younger too. People thought John Tudor was 'awful' playing alongside Supermac, but Macdonald appreciated the space Tudor created for him by his selfless running ; Kuyt is a similar player, but more skillful - his goals record with Liverpool averages at 1 per 3 matches over 4 seasons - are you saying that Lovenkrands will do that in the Prem? And, as for Rafa not playing him up front, it seems to me that Rafa's judgment is being questioned by a number of Liverpool players right now - don't expect him to be there next season...! That is also the reason why I think Kuyt could be bought - he has been there 4 years, there are going to be changes and players like a new challenge..he is also approaching 30, so the fee wouldn't be too high for Ashley..!! We've all seen him play in the Premiership, he played 8 games last season you know ...and what did he do? Do you see something in him that Schalke didn't ? German clubs rarely make mistakes when giving players free transfers or deciding they are surplus to requirements.. He is not going to get any better at his age, so I would be interested in your view as to whether you think he will score 15 goals next season ? He scored 3 goals in 8 games. Not bothered what happened at Schalke, because that's nothing to do with Newcastle United. I prefer to watch the player and judge him on his performances. He was decent in the 8 games he played last season in the Premiership in difficult circumstances, so there's no reason I can see that he shouldn't be kept on as backup next season, and no of course I don't expect a backup player to score 15 goals. And tbf hadn't played competitively for some time before he arrived if I remember correctly. He was also played out wide, which is not his best position. That ought to be taken into account when assessing him for last season at least. I think that he can do us a job. ...

You've missed Lovenkrands from your list - unless this was intentional? Kuyt's a hard worker, but he isn't good enough to be play upfront at Premiership level - that's why Rafa has shipped it out on the right. He's awful there too. If you think Kuyt is awful, just wait until you see the likes of Lovenkrands in the Prem - I missed him out on purpose because I don't consider him good enough for the Prem. KK let David Kelly go after we won promotion despite him being the club's top scorer because he didn't think Kelly was good enough for the Prem - and believe me, Kelly was a better player than Lovenkrands and was younger too. People thought John Tudor was 'awful' playing alongside Supermac, but Macdonald appreciated the space Tudor created for him by his selfless running ; Kuyt is a similar player, but more skillful - his goals record with Liverpool averages at 1 per 3 matches over 4 seasons - are you saying that Lovenkrands will do that in the Prem? And, as for Rafa not playing him up front, it seems to me that Rafa's judgment is being questioned by a number of Liverpool players right now - don't expect him to be there next season...! That is also the reason why I think Kuyt could be bought - he has been there 4 years, there are going to be changes and players like a new challenge..he is also approaching 30, so the fee wouldn't be too high for Ashley..!! We've all seen him play in the Premiership, he played 8 games last season you know ...and what did he do? Do you see something in him that Schalke didn't ? German clubs rarely make mistakes when giving players free transfers or deciding they are surplus to requirements.. He is not going to get any better at his age, so I would be interested in your view as to whether you think he will score 15 goals next season ?

You've missed Lovenkrands from your list - unless this was intentional? Kuyt's a hard worker, but he isn't good enough to be play upfront at Premiership level - that's why Rafa has shipped it out on the right. He's awful there too. If you think Kuyt is awful, just wait until you see the likes of Lovenkrands in the Prem - I missed him out on purpose because I don't consider him good enough for the Prem. KK let David Kelly go after we won promotion despite him being the club's top scorer because he didn't think Kelly was good enough for the Prem - and believe me, Kelly was a better player than Lovenkrands and was younger too. People thought John Tudor was 'awful' playing alongside Supermac, but Macdonald appreciated the space Tudor created for him by his selfless running ; Kuyt is a similar player, but more skillful - his goals record with Liverpool averages at 1 per 3 matches over 4 seasons - are you saying that Lovenkrands will do that in the Prem? And, as for Rafa not playing him up front, it seems to me that Rafa's judgment is being questioned by a number of Liverpool players right now - don't expect him to be there next season...! That is also the reason why I think Kuyt could be bought - he has been there 4 years, there are going to be changes and players like a new challenge..he is also approaching 30, so the fee wouldn't be too high for Ashley..!!

If we are only going to win 8 or 9 games, we cannot afford to lose to struggling teams. We have to aim to win all home games against ALL teams exc top 4 ; we WON'T win them all, but even Joe Harvey's teams of mid-late 60s made SJP a difficult venue for visiting sides. Investment in the team is vital, and a club of Newcastle's size should NOT be entering a Prem season expecting a relegation battle. I certainly don't expect a repeat of KK's 93/94 side's excellent showing after promotion, but aiming high is essential otherwise the club WILL struggle.

If there are no major additions to the squad, we will struggle to stay out of trouble. If we sign a pacey striker and midfielder with vision & pace we could finish mid-table. IF we sign 3/4 top class players we could possibly aim for top 8. The players I would keep as a basis for a Prem side are Harper,Krul, Enrique, Coloccini(holding my breath remembering how he struggled against quick Prem strikers last time), Kadar, S.Taylor(although I think he will be sold),Guthrie, Routledge, Jonas and Carroll ; some of these would be back-up and I reckon we need at least 3 new players. Nolan and Barton will be kept but I wouldn't rely on either as permanent first-teamers in the Prem. Believe it or not, I wouldn't mind having Kuyt from Liverpool - he has a good attitude is skillful and is a good pro to have alongside Carroll although there is a question about his pace. There may well be a couple of players we could get from the scousers because I reckon there will be big changes afoot there in the close season. All of this is day-dreaming until promotion is assured - many a slip between cup and lip.....

This is a great result because they were on a roll and we had had problems leading up to the game - you have to give credit to Carroll for performing well and taking his goal after all the bad publicity(not that this excludes him from any culpability, but that can wait). The game WAS a banana skin and the sort of match Newcastle sides have lost in the past so credit to both management and players for keeping their nerve. The match with Forest(shades of 1974..!)has assumed huge significance now and the side will be under huge pressure when we play them , because everyone knows that a win will be an enormous step to promotion. If Newcastle DO win, I reckon it will take the wind out of Forest's sails and also deflate WBA slightly so the game's importance cannot be overstated. We will now see just what Hughton and Calderwood are made of because the management will be crucial in ensuring the team go on the pitch with just the right attitude ; not over-confident, not too hyped-up or nervous, but with a determined, professional approach. The whole season's work could hang on getting a positive result.

Well, in the end the answer to this question depends where you are from. I mean I would argue that Pele, Garrincha and Zico are the best player of all time. But at the same time I understand why Di Stefano, Cruyff, Maradona, Beckenbauer are mentioned as the best of all time. I just feel it's to early to say Messi is the better than Zidane and Ronaldo, I mean don't forget that Henry was as unstoppable as Messi is nowadays when Arsenal went undefeated for a whole season. I'm with you, Felipao - Pele was the best, no doubt.. He took terrible punishment from defenders which would have had the perpetrators sent off in a flash in today's over-protected football, and they still couldn't stop him ; even Maradona didn't have to put up with the kind of abuse Pele got on a regular basis. Likewise, although I never saw him play, from what I've heard, Hughie Gallacher would be just as successful today - maybe even more so - because he would NOT have been subject to the brutal tackles he received during his career ; team-mates said he used to have lumps of flesh hanging off his legs after many matches as defenders tried to kick him out of it but nearly always failed. Don't accept the premise(usually among younger fans)that football is better today because it is seen to be faster - there have always been quick players ; Milburn, Macdonald and Tony Green for 3 during the past 60 years at SJP but players get far more protection these days.

Think that's a bit much. There have been training ground bustups since time immemorial, young men with too much money and big egos playing in a business where their careers are short and passions run high. FFS, I've had heated arguments with people on my 5-a-side team, it's just a part of football. Obviously it never comes to blows, but the A-Train and S Taylor are both nob heads, let's face it. Nothing to do with 'lily-livered liberals™' or 'political correctness gone mad®'. You're right about the effects though, it's the clulb/fans that will suffer. Sorry, but its EVERYTHING to do with 'lily-livered libs/political correctness' ; there is a general view among both lawmakers and Social services that a wrong-doer must have had a 'bad time', and therefore deserves 'compassion and rehabilitation', even when its blatantly obvious that the idiot concerned is simply mad, bad or acts like a spoilt child. Until Judges(and Laws) once again make the punishment fit the crime, this sort of behaviour will continue to be seen as 'the norm'...esp for footballers.

Agreed - the FA have far more to worry about than so-called homophobia ; trying to get a new CE for a start(nobody seems able to work with them) closely followed by trying to obtain the WC in 2018. What the hell do this band of amateurs think they are playing at, trying to be Society's social conscience ? Perhaps if they didn't have NuLab placemen like Lord Triesman in their ranks they would concentrate on improving English Football instead of being the reps of the Soft Left brigade - we are all sick & fed up with these issues ; most people accept Gays for what they are and allow them to get on with their lives as long as they don't insist on shoving their sexuality on others'faces...end of story. Get real you bunch of amateurs....

These incidents involving Barton and now Carroll are symptomatic of the general lack of discipline in society and in particular, the acceptance of such behaviour by many of the general public because they see it go unpunished(or hardly punished)in the courts. Of course, we are not yet party to the whole picture(and probably won't ever be), so cannot blame either player totally for this incident - however, IF Carroll is responsible, this cannot be allowed to continue. Human Rights Lawyers - and Laws-(the scourge of the modern age)who go on to become politicians are largely to blame for the lack of severe punishment which would otherwise act as a deterrent for such incidents ; footballers think they are immune from public censure because they earn far more than the fans who watch them and the limp-wristed penalties from the Prem & FA(a result of a cosy relationship with the Players' Union)do nothing to make them think again. Carroll is a potentially good striker who is going to wreck his career with this sort of behaviour, just as Barton has - the people who suffer as a result are the fans who, if he is sentenced to jail, will possibly see their side struggle without him, not to mention the club and management who will take the rap for any fall-off in results. NUFC are not in a position to compete for top strikers, even if Ashley were to give the manager the funds, so the chances are that Carroll's absence will damage the club's prospects even more than Barton's has(you can get midfielders much more easily than forwards). We can only hope that notihing happens before the club get promoted because results would have been much worse without Carroll's goals and presence up front. This would be his last chance as far as I am concerned - any repeat of this behaviour and I would list him - but only when the club has achieved its objectives. Carroll's interests, after he leaves NUFC, are of no concern to the club ; the club's interests come first and until we are run as the Top sides are(and players are sold either if they get past it or are a problem, no matter WHO they are, we will be viewed as second-rate by all the top sides - and rightly so.

There will always be those who try to say that Football has changed and players from the past wouldn't cut it etc. etc., but I don't buy that for one minute. Even players like Hughie Gallacher would have been worth fortunes today for his all-round ability and courage. From the list above and assuming all at their peak, its hard to look beyond Shearer as the most valuable because of his goals, temperament and consistency - I am convinced we would have won the league in 96/97 had he stayed fit all season because we still finished second even after his long absences. Taking football ability all round, it has to be Gazza - outrageous skills combined with cocky attitude, but let down by temperament. Beardsley runs him very close indeed, only falling behind because he lacked Gazza's cockiness - perhaps too nice but great ability. KK never had the natural skills of the previous 2, but worked really hard at his game to make him a dangerous forward - another with iron determination like Shearer. I wouldn't like to guess how much people would pay for Shearer aged 25 nowadays - certainly close to a World record fee again. I never saw him play, but some that did used to rave about Len Shackleton's amazing skills. He scored 6 goals in a 13-0 win against Newport in 1946, his first game for the club. He is not usually associated with us because he fell out with the board and was sold to the Mackems 2 years later, but there are many stories about things he did ; he would sometimes dribble past opposing defenders from his own half of the field, beating all the defenders in front of him, then, with only the keeper to beat, would turn and pass the ball back to his defence, just to frustrate the fans...! Another one who didn't really take the game seriously and would therefore not have been as valuable as the likes of Shearer and KK who were not as talented.

I never doubted this lad's potential, but I distinctly remember some so-called 'experts' in the media slagging him off royally not long after he arrived. He is probably our most valuable player right now, and will stay that way until(IF he keeps improving) Carroll surpasses him ; young English forwards will always be the most sought after players in the Prem if they have the right qualities. Both players will be targets for top clubs if they maintain their form and if Carroll stays out of trouble.

What do you expect when they allow gross, brain-cell challenged cretins such as Martin Samuel(has there EVER been a worse Sports journalist?)to work in the media....? Such pathetic specimens of humanity should be kept in a strait-jacket...permanently. Chief of the Know-Nowt-About-It brigade. Ignore the media - all liars.

You think we never take to southerners? What about Rob Lee or David Kelly or Kevin Keegan or Hughton, who's name we've sang to the heaven's? It's not that we don't trust southerners, more that we don't tolerate complete ineptitude wherever it originates. OK then, seeing as you've made that statement ; would you like to go back through the threads after KK left the club and see how much abuse those who thought Venables might be a good appointment got ? The idea of Venables as a caretaker manager was rubbished largely NOT because of his record/shady dealings etc., but because he was a COCKNEY. I know ALL about the likes of Rob Lee etc AND Supermac - they were PLAYERS and therefore transient in the eyes of many fans - the manager is something different and look how many people have said that only a Geordie should manage NUFC INCLUDING Shepherd. Whether some of you like it or not - OR are prepared to admit it - there is a large slice of our support that do not want a cockney in charge of NUFC, and would rather have a foreigner instead ; even if they weren't quite as suitable. Incidentally, for the person who thought David Kelly was a southerner - he would be a bit p---d off with you - he's from the W.Midlands and proud of it despite his love for NUFC..he's a Baggies fan...

He's done a great job at Fulham - lets face it, if NUFC had turned over Juventus by 4-1(after losing the first leg 3-1) people would be hailing the manager as as world-beater. Would have been a good appointment at SJP, but there would have been a large section of fans who would never trust him because he came from 'Doon Sooth'... Ask yourself - who would you rather have in charge next season if the club goes up - Hughton or Hodgson...

People should just forget about 'when' promotion is going to be achieved - the club has to keep winning matches until its mathematically certain and I certainly hope this question isn't a major topic of conversation among the players yet. If we slip up at Bristol or Doncaster(or both), it could be game on again - win them both, get to Easter and have a decent holiday programme, and THEN you can start speculating about this.

...and that would be another NUFC mistake. I agree that it MAY be necessary to replace him with a TOP proven striker, but you don't get 'bargains' with those - any bargains tend to be like Lovenkrands - players who have been OK at a lower level(i.e.Scottish Prem), but will not hack it in the Prem. If Carroll could get 12-15 goals in the Prem it would be a definite success for the first season back ; any less than 10 and I would ask questions about his future provided he was given a fair number of games. Either way, we WILL need another,proven striker.

Carroll has the potential to be a much more effective striker than anyone at the club. Apart from Ameobi's fitness problems, he is nowhere near the physical threat that Carroll offers defenders. As he is now 28, Ameobi has only one way to go, whereas Carroll could become an England regular in a few years IF - IF he applies himself to developing his full potential. Even Rob Stewart in the Telegraph thought that Carroll could have a big future... Lovenkrands is a short-term fix, nothing more, nothing less ; he HAS done better than I expected on the goals front but he too is at, or past, his peak. He will not be a threat in the Prem and will be a squad player. Carroll could save the club a lot of money in the transfer market but as I said, there is a big question mark over whether he will continue to develop. Even if he does, we will still need a player to play off/with him because`neither of the others are the answer at a higher level.

I said some months ago that slagging off Carroll was premature - and so it is. So, too, is unduly praising him because he has off-field issues(which will hopefully get less as he assumes a degree of maturity), and he needs to work harder at his control and hold-up play. Nevertheless, he took his goals really well tonight and he has become a regular scorer now so he IS showing progress. His physical ability to dominate defenders will be very useful if he can maintain his improvements in the Prem because he could be a real handful. A great header for the first goal and showed composure, skill and(unusually)pace to score the second. He is the best prospect as a forward that we have brought through the ranks for years - maybe even since Pop Robson emerged in the late 60s. A great pity that Pop's Father-in-law, Lennie Hepple, is not now able to pass on his balance coaching to Carroll, because it would improve him in many areas of his game. If he fulfills his potential, we will have people from top clubs knocking on the door....

NO.

As I said, I would have agreed provided SBR had a genuinely decent replacement lined up - Kluivert would NOT have counted as that replacement. Whatever your opinion on the footballing side of things, it was Robson's call to make. When a Chairman over-rules his manager on a football matter because of what the fans might think, the club is clearly not being run in the right way. That was the start of the slippery slope. From Shepherd's point of view, I think he was right in anticipating that there would be a backlash from most fans, but it's part of his job to back his manager when he comes under fire. We've had plenty of talk over the last 2 years about 'fan power' and the supposed desirability of getting some representation in the running of the club. Trouble is, the general collective opinion of the fans is sometimes dead wrong, and the position of the professionals who are going to be held responsible for results on the pitch has to be respected. Agree with this, but replacing Shearer with a player who was seen as second rate or risky would not be an acceptable scenario ; had SBR come along with Eto or a combination of players who would do the job, then fine.