brummie

You don't actually need to have the coaching badges to manage in the PL, they will accept the fact that you are working towards them.

That's definitely true, as it is for us, too. I also think that the more money that comes into the game, the more horrible the thought of dropping out of the top flight becomes for them, and as a result, the more that starts to be their only real concern, which just makes that "at least we didn't get relegated" argument even more important to them. You'd think the television money going into mental levels might do some good - doesn't it mean that half the PL are in the richest 20 clubs in Europe, for example? If you didn't know what the people who own clubs are like, you might look at all that money and think "maybe this will encourage more clubs to go out and get better players and try to compete?" or even "perhaps they'll actually cut ticket prices for the fans who keep the thing going, now they're getting so much more telly money through". Instead what happens is the opposite, unambitious chairman see nothing from the cash beyond more profit and a much increased fear of relegation (which manifests itself in not caring about cups or seeing finishing 15th as an achievement rather than an absolute embarrassment), and the financial mugging of supporters in terms of ever increasing ticket prices just carries on regardless.

Worth remembering, Forest are run by mentalists.

FWIW I think McClaren would be a decent appointment, and being entirely honest, when we appointed Sherwood I'd have preferred McClaren. He's done well here, gone into the England job - a job which has defeated almost every manager ever to take it - gone back and done well in Holland, done a decent job at Derby. He's a coach with a pretty good record. I know pretty good is a bit uninspiring, but it's better than Vieira who is a coach with no record.

I've always liked Forest. They're not far from me geographically, and I remember as a kid Cloughie bringing them from nothing to champions of Europe. Twice. I think Clough's achievements with Forest (and Derby, for that matter) are what make him the most brilliant English manager for me.

That's completely wrong, got more history than at least half the league for starters. They have a shit name and shit colours. Other than that I don't mind them all that much. Hoooooooooooooo!!!!!

I don't get it. Why would anyone choose Vieira? A great player in the PL, a combative midfielder who would drive his team forward, a winner. Like this cunt: http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article9778710.ece/alternates/w620/58-RoyKeane-EPA.jpg Strange move.

On the plus side, you saved yourself a fortune. See above.

God, we were truly truly pathetic. I never thought I'd see a more spineless FA Cup final performance than ours in 2000 but that today was 10 times as bad. Arsenal would have beaten most teams today, but we made it so easy for them. Standing around fucking moaning when we misplaced passes, drove me nuts. Sherwood has said tonight there are a lot of them who will be on their way this summer, and frankly, good. We got a great new manager bounce when Sherwood arrived and started to play some decent stuff, and there's no doubt it isn't a relegation squad, but by the same measure, we've had two reminders the last two league games that there is a losing mentality at the club. Seeing Lerner sat there laughing and joking as we went three down made me want to smash his fucking face in. We need new owners, toute de suite, and a massive, expensive overhaul this summer or we will continue to be shit. That was actually fucking embarassing. The only way it could have been worse woudl have been if I'd stumped up 600 notes for a ticket. Reading our forums tonight, it seems there have been an awful lot of people who did just that, only to turn up today and have their tickets rejected as they were fakes. I think if that had happened to me, I'd probably have killed someone at some point today.

I feel sick.

I don't know about this match in particular, but I do know that it was actually reasonably common in the 80s when English clubs played abroad, for there to be a lot of English fans there, who didn't support the team, but were after trouble. Also, at the time, we had tens of thousands of soldiers stationed in Germany, and it was quite well known for a lot of them to go to matches when English teams played nearby. We played at Anderlecht in the European Cup semi final in 1982, and there was s*** loads of trouble. So much we were worried about getting kicked out for a while. It is pretty much an accepted truth amongst our fans that, although yes, of course it was our idiots causing most of the trouble, there were a lot of p*ssed up squaddies there who were up for it. When the Anderlecht fans started chanting "Argentina" (this was while the Falklands war was going on), it got particularly nasty. Not saying that there were a lot of non Liverpool fans involved at Heysel, as I don't know, just saying that back in the day it was quite common for outsiders to get involved. Culturally it was a completely different time as well. When English teams played in Europe, no matter who they were the bulk of the country were behind them. These hooligans saw it a a case for national pride, and attached themselves to any English club competing in Europe. Yes. I think that's partly because there wasn't this top four versus the rest wankathon that we have now based around CL qualification. I remember always wanting the English team (of course, worth remembering, the teams were almost all English or Scottish players then too) to win back then. Liverpool (who I otherwise hated), Everton, Spurs, all teams I remember everyone get behind. I also think up until Heysel, hooliganism wasn't really taken that seriously. I was 17 when Heysel happened, and went to a lot of away games, and my overriding memory of them is of shitting myself a lot, and narrowly avoiding getting my head kicked in - and I used to go out of my way to avoid it. You see away fans these days wandering around the ground before the match in their replica shirts, not a care in the world, and it is totally different. It was terrible back in the day, but really, it wasn't until Heysel that anyone gave a shit about it. The change that went on in the late 1990s was incredible. Try explaining to kids these days that back then, politicians would go out of their way to disassociate themselves from football rather than feeling they have to claim an allegiance as they do now. Football was for people used to being treated like shit, and who often thought that meant they could act like animals, too. A fair assumption, to be honest.

Their fans gave it Billy Big Bollocks because their team was so good and they didn't like anyone saying otherwise or challenging their best fans tag. I had trouble at Anfield in the KK cup game and even up here in his Farewell game. Great side they had, they were followed by some right toe rags. They've been trying to rewrite large parts of their history. Not met a single good humoured Lpool fan, met some who've given it the jolly scouser routine as a prelude to bother. Had a car load of them trying to flag us down on the A69 looking for a fight. s*** Houses. I've met loads and can honestly say that I have never had a problem with Liverpool fans anywhere. I've had some great times with them both when we've played them and when we've both been playing in London. Everton fans, that's a totally different story and I can't stand them. We got chatting to a load of Liverpool fans at the semi final last month, and they were all to a man friendly, chatty, and gracious in defeat. Their away support is usually a horrendous melange of fat Irish blokes and Scandos in jester hats and half and half scarves, but their scouse fans are a decent lot. Everton on the other hand have always been a bit different. There has always been a respect for them from our fans - it is the most played fixture in English football history, after all, and the two clubs are basically extremely similar - but it doesn't seem to be reciprocated. Their away support is odd, too. They usually sell out, but are about the only club who can bring a full allocation, all of whom spend the whole 90 minutes sat down, shouting "handball!" every five minutes.

re the Hillsborough thing, there is absolutely zero reason to link the two, as has been said, one was a case of fans being falsely blamed, families losing their children, which was bad enough, but then having to wait a quarter of a century to get justice, all the time having been smeared by the establishment. it is one of the things this country can really feel thoroughly fucking ashamed for in the last few decades. Having said that, Heysel, on the other hand, was hooliganism pure and simple. Yes, the stadium was crumbling. Yes, the organisation was awful, the police were terrible, and back then football took massive gambles with safety, but that doesn't stop it being a result of hooliganism. I often find it puzzling that the fact an English team's fans caused so many lives to be lost is so willingly overlooked.

I don't know about this match in particular, but I do know that it was actually reasonably common in the 80s when English clubs played abroad, for there to be a lot of English fans there, who didn't support the team, but were after trouble. Also, at the time, we had tens of thousands of soldiers stationed in Germany, and it was quite well known for a lot of them to go to matches when English teams played nearby. We played at Anderlecht in the European Cup semi final in 1982, and there was shit loads of trouble. So much we were worried about getting kicked out for a while. It is pretty much an accepted truth amongst our fans that, although yes, of course it was our idiots causing most of the trouble, there were a lot of pissed up squaddies there who were up for it. When the Anderlecht fans started chanting "Argentina" (this was while the Falklands war was going on), it got particularly nasty. Not saying that there were a lot of non Liverpool fans involved at Heysel, as I don't know, just saying that back in the day it was quite common for outsiders to get involved.

Right, we're not saying that every location has to be perfect in every way. Just as long as it isn't a tiny state AND has a record of horrific human rights abuses AND has no footballing tradition whatsoever AND is a billion degrees in the summer. And where it's illegal to effectively exist for approximately 10% of the population of the world Yes, indeed. So that's FIFA who go through the motions of fighting racism and inequality, awarding the next tournament to Russia - a country with a significant problem with both racism and homoephobia - and Qatar, which is amongst the few "modern" countries with an even more pitiable human rights record than Russia. One which is using slave labour to construct the stadia. Brilliant. It's also good to see the sponsors saying today they're concerned. I can only imagine they'll manage to overcome these concerns as easily as they've done for the past couple of decades in which the world and his wife knew FIFA were corrupt as fuck. Still, what can we expect from the sort of companies who, themselves, stop worrying about equality as soon as it might impinge on their ability to churn out cheap shit from Asian sweatshops running, to a large extent, on child labour. Football is a massive turd of hypocrisy from top to bottom. The only really surprising thing is how many of us, otherwise sane, moral, thoughtful people manage to turn a blind eye to it so successfully.

And BTW football, i fucking hate you for watching me fork out for a season ticket of year after year of fucking dross (even under O'Neill it was horrible at home), and getting nowhere near the cup, only to fuck me squarely in the face when we reach the final.

No. Honestly, I can't remember the last time I pulled myself apart over something so much. Fucking football. Just fuck off. You're not worth the fucking hassle.

I am starting to think I prefer it when we're in normal "don't bother trying" mode. Fucking excited. Fucking worried. Fucking fucking fuck. A late 40s man reduced to a fucking 10 year old like that *clicks fingers* Shit, this must be what it is like all the time to watch actual ambitious, successful clubs.

Bookies normally close "next manager" markets overnight.

Wow. This is what it must have been like when the Japanese people heard Hirohito speak for the first time.

"... of table" sorry

Great example of the horribly cynical one-way relationship between clubs and fans these days, that.

+1. It's just football at the end of the day. It's not worth potentially destroying something far more important. I think you're right. OK, television it is then.

A team is meant to be supported through thick and thin. You left them when the going got tough, Brummie. Even if you got a ticket, do you deserve it based on what we know? That's the thing, though. You've got a point there. I bailed for the season. It is biting me in the arse. I've come to terms with that part of it, and it is pretty ironic, too, that it has turned out that way. So now I am also thinking - and this is the same logic here - "ah well, I'll decide not to do it, and we'll lose, and I'll think 'thank fuck'" Then in the next second - "but what if we actually do win it? And I had the chance? ANd I threw it away for the sake of 500 notes" Followed by "but it isn't just the money, it is her indoors, too" I should add that for Villa fans, the cup is a massive thing, won it seven times but not once since 1957. I appreciate I am in a fertile place when it comes to not winning things, but with the exception of the UEFA cup, it is the only thing I've seen us play in but not win. I almost feel like, if we won it, and if i was there to see it, I would be mentally released from this whole fucking football torture thing. It'd all get easier for me. I went to see David Byrne five years ago, at the Symphony Hall in Brum, an amazing venue, to see my favourite artist of all time, and we were in the second row, at just below stage height, right in the middle. When we came out, I said to the Mrs, I never really need to see another gig again, because whatever it is, it'll never be as good as this. That's the way I find myself thinking about this match. But I still feel bad about even thinking about doing it. We've been together 16 years. I've grown attached to her. Fond of her, even.