LucaAltieri

So's your gran.

Probably true to a point. The club don't value cup runs or a second tier European tournament because they don't generate enough revenue. They've made that clear. I'd bet you Ashley would bite you hand off for a bit of the champion's league money, though. I think he wants us to improve, but in very specific ways, on very specific terms. This summer is the big test. He's taking a more active role in the club so here we'll see what his intentions are. If it's just more of the same then I'll hold my hands up and admit defeat. No ambition, no desire to be anything more than mid-table. If we invest then I'm sticking to my guns. Early indicators, with the upgrades to the academy, are that he's going to double down on youth and try to get the best out of kids as offering value for money. I like that prospect. It was great seeing the likes of Bassong and Krul come good. As a fan I find that exciting.

£18 million. And if he'd just sold Cabaye and never hired Kinnear, it's still £18 million plus the threepence Kinnear was earning. He'd probably face more flack than peddling Kinnear to deflect anything from coming his way. But that doesn't appear to be the reality. Public opinion was shit anyway, hiring Kinnear made it worse. Sacking Kinnear didn't bring it back up to where it was before. It was better than having him lurking around but it didn't restore any optimism. It just made Ashley's decision making seem suspect. It's like when people argue smoking makes you calmer... it only makes you calmer because it's the very thing that's stressing you the fuck out. I just don't buy it. I can be convinced, however. If we go into this summer, with Ashley on the board and helping with transfers and we sign players... I'm sticking to my guns. I was right. He's not sitting at home petting his cat and cackling manically. If we go into the summer and we don't sign enough players or players of the right quality, spending way under what's needed, and/or selling off our top assets without replacing them, and in the fallout Ashley resigns from the board to take the heat off... then you've got me as a conspiracy theorist too.

£18 million. And if he'd just sold Cabaye and never hired Kinnear, it's still £18 million plus the threepence Kinnear was earning.

Logic is boring. That's why so few dabble in it.

We know that Ashley doesn't give a fuck about what the fans think. We know that Ashley doesn't like to spend money. Why would he hire someone just to use them as a scapegoat? Did he suddenly start to care what the fans think or did he suddenly decide he liked wasting money? I see little evidence of either in any other aspect of the club. If he was so keen to keep the fans onside, why would he hire Kinnear in the first place? Why wouldn't he hire someone we respected to be DoF then use them as a scapegoat? Wouldn't that be more plausible? It just doesn't add up. It's fucking bonkers. I'd dispute your first point, which would sort of negate much of the rest of your post tbh. Few questions for you, if Ashley doesn't care a jot what the fans think... - Why did he throw a massive paddy when fans were kicking off at him after the Keegan stuff, reacting by putting the club on the market in a huff? - Why did he do similar when the Chronicle objectively and innocuously reported a protest march in their paper, banning all TH publications from the ground? - Why are his staff consistently trying to dampen expectations in the media, if not to limit fan anger and fuel apathy? - Why are they consistently mis-leading the fans on issues such as transfer fees paid out, if not to avoid being berated by the fans for not spending what we bring in? - Why the cloak-and-dagger approach to explaining the Sports Direct advertising issue? If he's not bothered about the fans, why doesn't he just say it's his ground and they can fuck off? - Why is the club run in such a shady, secretive way, where every communication with the fans is watered down and again geared towards lowering expectations? They're just a few questions, there'd be more if I could be arsed to think of them. But the point I'm making is that although fan's feelings clearly aren't the be-all-and-end-all for Mike Ashley, he benefits from an easier ride, which is unfortunately all too often afforded to him due to the fractured nature of our support, general apathy/resignation in the stands (much of it resulting from years of the club saying/doing things that suggest we're not much cop as a football club, in contrast to previous years where we'd be allowed to dream and knew we'd try to compete) and also many of our fans falling for the quite obvious decoys being put in front of them, such as an excuse-machine manager and a DOF who people would point and laugh at and then later on blame when no players were brought in and our best one was sold. You even heard it at the time, fans all over the shop going "It's the Director Of Fuck-All's fault, he's not doing his job properly", so it clearly was believable to some. I can't be bothered to reply to every point so I'll just go back to the only one that matters... If he cares what the fans think and wants to keep them onside then why is Joe Kinnear his DoF appointment? Nobody, sympathiser or hater, wanted Joe Kinnear in that role. No one thought it would work out. No one looks at that and thinks "fair play, Ashley is free from blame here." It was a massive fuck up and one he rightly gets blamed for. That's not good PR. Not spending money or appointing a fucking chimpanzee who fails to spend any money, he still comes out of it looking like shit. Fans are still pissed off. We can still do fuck all about it. What did he gain?

Maybe, the billionaire owner with no history working in football, and with multiple other business interests doesn't spend that much time worrying about the inner workings of the club and leaves that to the people he hires specifically for that purpose. Ah right, of course. It's the club employees that are choosing to sell our best players, choosing not to spend, choosing to hire a manager sacked by West Ham, Southampton and Charlton Athletic. Mike's given them an open cheque book and told them to go after Laudrup and they keep letting him down, the bloody rascals. See, this is the kind of shit I'm talking about. I argue that he's not micromanaging the day to day operations. Your response is to suggest that there's no money available anyway. It's all smoke and mirrors. Part of the plan. There's a middle ground. Ashley wants bargains and fuck face Kinnear couldn't deliver them. We were bidding for players. We even had bids accepted and were negotiating personal terms. But no, that's just a smokescreen in the grand plot to make sure we never sign another player again. Logic would dictate Ashley gave them a budget and Kinnear couldn't make it work. He sold one of our most valuable assets (arguably cheaply) and couldn't get a replacement through the door in time. He got sacked. Looks pretty obvious to me. But unless there's something sinister you lot just aren't happy.

We know that Ashley doesn't give a fuck about what the fans think. We know that Ashley doesn't like to spend money. Why would he hire someone just to use them as a scapegoat? Did he suddenly start to care what the fans think or did he suddenly decide he liked wasting money? I see little evidence of either in any other aspect of the club. If he was so keen to keep the fans onside, why would he hire Kinnear in the first place? Why wouldn't he hire someone we respected to be DoF then use them as a scapegoat? Wouldn't that be more plausible? It just doesn't add up. It's fucking bonkers. Then, what do you think Mike hired Kinnear for? I don't necessarily buy the line that he hired Kinnear to not spend money, I think he just likes the old bat. But if you think that appointment was made with the best interests of the club at the heart of it, then you have to be seriously delusional. See Cronky's post above.

Maybe, the billionaire owner with no history working in football, and with multiple other business interests doesn't spend that much time worrying about the inner workings of the club and leaves that to the people he hires specifically for that purpose.

It also implies that Ashley doesn't want us to succeed. The theory goes he just wants to use us as a vehicle to push Sports Direct. I'm sure he does like the free advertisng. But the better we do, the more exposure he gets. What marketing genius wants their brand associated with the football team that gets humped every week? Or at best achieves mid-table stability. Moreover, there are much cheaper ways to buy that advertising. He could have put the same fucking banners up all over SJP or any other ground for a fraction of what it cost to buy the club. It doesn't. Make. Sense.

We know that Ashley doesn't give a fuck about what the fans think. We know that Ashley doesn't like to spend money. Why would he hire someone just to use them as a scapegoat? Did he suddenly start to care what the fans think or did he suddenly decide he liked wasting money? I see little evidence of either in any other aspect of the club. If he was so keen to keep the fans onside, why would he hire Kinnear in the first place? Why wouldn't he hire someone we respected to be DoF then use them as a scapegoat? Wouldn't that be more plausible? It just doesn't add up. It's fucking bonkers.

I think "he's a professional" is the weakest argument for Pardew that I've seen yet. Me pointing out his experience and qualifications isn't an argument for keeping him at the club. There are many reasons why he shouldn't be here. Me pointing that out is merely to move the conversation on from "He's clueless! He's a charlatan! He's only there because he's blowing Ashley!" shit. It's tedious. We've got a manager who had us performing well and with many of the same players as we have now we're currently shit. There's some interesting debate to be had around it if you want to look at it sensibly. The blind rage, insult-fest is just fucking boring. Sorry like, I'm not having this. There has been very reasonable discussion going on about Pardew and his deficiencies for a number of years now (even when we finished 5th, his gaping flaws were all pointed out, and it was shouted very loudly that they would come back and bite us), and all along the way you've popped your head up every few months to tell us how utterly wrong we were. Personally I've discussed his tactics, man-management, media presence etc etc to absolute fucking death and now I've been at the stage for months where I can do nothing other than laugh at him and call him a cunt. If you wanted reasonable discussion instead of ignoring what has been absolutely fucking obvious for a long time, you should have had it, instead you (and notable others) came on and mocked people who had very genuine concerns, and now you want "interesting debate"? Go back 12 months and look at anything posted in the football forum by Beren, Interpolic, Hanz, Dave, Sewelly, mrmojorisin and countless others. There's your interesting debate. We were here a long time before you were interested in listening. Nah, that's bullshit. 12 months ago we had the same shite we do now with very few measured or reasoned opinions. I get that many people don't like him but most of it boils down to petty reactionary stuff. Very few on here wanted him to begin with (I wasn't thrilled either) and from then on every negative, however minor, was evidence he was a fraud. Anything positive was someone else's doing. Anyone with who had the nerve to suggest we wait and see what he does was always shouted down. I don't mock people for their genuine concerns. I mock people for over the top, conspiracy theorist, reactionary bullshit. It's never just "we should be more positive against these teams" it's always "he's trying to destroy the club and laughing at us." It's never just "Kinnear was a bad appointment and we're paying the price for it now," it's always "Ashley appointed Kinnear to deliberately not sign anyone." It's ridiculous, batshit stuff and anyone who dares say so is one of them. That's why people like me only poke our heads in once in a while and prod you for kicks, because you've got fuckall interesting to say. You just want to agree with each other that the sky is falling.

I don't know. They lack goals. Short of turning them into Arsenal and have them pass the ball into the net I don't think there's much Poyet could have done. He took a punt on another striker in January... that didn't work out. They recalled the kid that they had out on loan... he hasn't worked out. They tried playing midfielders up front to see if they could get it done... that didn't work out. They know what the problem is, they just didn't find the right personnel to fix it. Pardew couldn't do much, Poyet couldn't do much. For someone with an avatar featuring Mourinho and Sir Bobby Robson you don't seem to have much appreciation for the effect a manager can have on a team. Where did Tony Pulis get his goals, down the back of the sofa? The manager does his work Sunday-Friday. When it comes to Saturday he's a spectator. He can affect the culture of the club to a point... PDC made it a shitty atmosphere, Poyet seems to have cheered the players up enough to go on a up run but not much more. I'm sure Poyet has Antiscore working on his finishing every day in training... he might even be banging them in. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him bury it in the back of the net when it actually matters. When it became apparent he couldn't fix Altidore he tried other options. Multiple options. He does't have the time and/or ability to get it fixed. Maybe you can suggest what exactly it is a manager should have a player or a team do if they just aren't able to score goals? What would you do with Altidore or Cisse? Players you know can score goals but just aren't? Mourinho couldn't get Torres scoring like he was. Managers don't have a magic wand.

I think "he's a professional" is the weakest argument for Pardew that I've seen yet. Me pointing out his experience and qualifications isn't an argument for keeping him at the club. There are many reasons why he shouldn't be here. Me pointing that out is merely to move the conversation on from "He's clueless! He's a charlatan! He's only there because he's blowing Ashley!" shit. It's tedious. We've got a manager who had us performing well and with many of the same players as we have now we're currently shit. There's some interesting debate to be had around it if you want to look at it sensibly. The blind rage, insult-fest is just fucking boring.

What do you want me to say? It's a safety-first formation that works well when you break quickly and have a striker that can handle the role. We don't have that striker (at least not fit and playing), we're not breaking quickly enough although in season past we were much better at it, and it's not providing enough safety to squeek the odd result at the moment. We're just getting hammered. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the formation but I agree the execution has been shit, performances have been shit, and Pardew has to answer for it. 451 in itself isn't a crime. *shrug* So basically we are playing the wrong formation for the players we have available. If only there was a job description for someone who could sort that out. Our problems are deeper than the wrong formation. We're giving away a lot of goals recently. There are two ways you can go with it; be more attacking and hope that takes the pressure off (but might leave you open once you lose the ball), or keep it even tighter. Given we're already playing a 451 and our attacking options are pretty shit (injured, lack confidence, has never been prolific, was never any good, is 12 years old) there's not much room for movement. See that is the bollocks that Pardew has everyone believing, we've never been tight, let alone even tighter under him. By design he's a defensive coach, all i ask you do is look at our goals conceded from the very start of his reign and you'll see that he has been far far away from keeping us tight. And it isn't because we attack too much, it's that he is crap at it, what more evidence do you need, for you to see what is right there in front of you. Honestly just look. I don't have the stats in front of me but I'm prepared to go along with that. Moreover, I agree with the general opinion on here that we shouldn't be trying to keep it tight and not over committing against the likes of Palace, Stoke, and the Mackems. We should be getting at teams like that. We lack depth in quality but we've certainly got enough to see off those fuckers. However, when you lack genuine threat up front, as we do at the moment, where do you go from there? We're not really able to get at teams when our strikers are injured or out of form and our only real linkup play comes from a player who is hit or miss and in and out of the team. He's trying to keep it tight and it's not working. He's obviously trying to stabilize. Stop losing, get morale back up, and build on a defensive record then take it from there. But you're right, he's proving that he doesn't have what it takes to motivate the players to do that. I just don't see a way out for him now. He could play HBA in a free role behind our two best strikers at the moment and we'd still be shit. I can understand the defensive mentality in trying to fix the problem. My main objection is the execution.

Spudil trying to make sure he disappears in the dead of night.

I'm not claiming he's any good at it, by the way.

I don't know. They lack goals. Short of turning them into Arsenal and have them pass the ball into the net I don't think there's much Poyet could have done. He took a punt on another striker in January... that didn't work out. They recalled the kid that they had out on loan... he hasn't worked out. They tried playing midfielders up front to see if they could get it done... that didn't work out. They know what the problem is, they just didn't find the right personnel to fix it.

Poyet was on a hiding to nothing taking that shower of shit over mid-season. I don't think he's the right man for the job anyway, I can't see him being motivated in a dump like that in the lower divisions. He didn't do his career any favours going there. I begrudgingly rate him. He'll have them somewhere near the top of the Championship next season. They'e not going to attract anyone better and no bigger clubs are about to take a risk on him. This is a good opportunity for all parties. I do feel Di Canio is partially vindicated, though. The players are to blame for the mackem's current plight. However, PDC is still a cunt who hasn't a clue on how deal with these sorts of players without resorting to being a nightmarish dictator. He made the situation worse rather than better. Didn't he sign most of them? From what my mackem mates tell me there's some debate about how much was down to him and how much of the recruitment was De Fanti. However, they needed to sign a lot of players because of the size of their squad. Some are always going to flop due to either not adapting to the league or the club. That's not particularly helped if you're recruiting mercenaries (s they have to - after all, who the fuck wants to play for Sunderland?) and hire Mussolini to manage them.

Mick, I come on here to hash this shit out. If you think I'm wrong then tell me why. The one-liners give me nothing.

Nay. I don't make half the grammatical errors he does.

What do you want me to say? It's a safety-first formation that works well when you break quickly and have a striker that can handle the role. We don't have that striker (at least not fit and playing), we're not breaking quickly enough although in season past we were much better at it, and it's not providing enough safety to squeek the odd result at the moment. We're just getting hammered. There's nothing wrong with the principle of the formation but I agree the execution has been shit, performances have been shit, and Pardew has to answer for it. 451 in itself isn't a crime. *shrug* So basically we are playing the wrong formation for the players we have available. If only there was a job description for someone who could sort that out. Our problems are deeper than the wrong formation. We're giving away a lot of goals recently. There are two ways you can go with it; be more attacking and hope that takes the pressure off (but might leave you open once you lose the ball), or keep it even tighter. Given we're already playing a 451 and our attacking options are pretty shit (injured, lack confidence, has never been prolific, was never any good, is 12 years old) there's not much room for movement.