This Michael Owen

[ohmelads]

Which, as an argument, I can understand better than "you're a F****** ****** you ****** ****".

 

Essentially, my point wasn't mainly about Owen (though, in one way, it actually was - or something) it was just using him as the highest profile example of making a my point that being quick to jump on the back of players/the manager doesn't help. Of course the paradox is that the people booing could say that they are so passionate about the club that they can't stand to see mediocrity and have to make their voices heard.

 

And odf course you're right about Liverpool fans being exactly the same in many regards and if you go on the TTWAR site you will see plenty of bell ends who think that insulting our captain and his missus makes them somehow more of a "die hard" fan. Personally, I wouldn't call insulting the guy that has virtually carried us for 3 years as being as sign of being hardcore, I'd call it a sign of being a tw*t but there you go.

 

In regards Owens' move to Madrid, living in Liverpool you'll have heard a lot of people that know people that used to know people that worked at Anfield behind the bar one XMAS that know the real reason Owen moved. Personally, I thought it was nothing more than him falliung out with Houllier due to the Frenchmans insistance of playing Owen when he was clearly unfit and Owens dislike of our style of play at the time - and whatever you think of him you'[ve got to say that he's been incredibly unlucky with the way his careers gone over the last few years.

 

I make you right on him not fitting into Allardyce style of play though and I think it'll be interesting to see what type of players you bring in in Jan - personally speaking though, I think Allardyce isn't good enough to manage your club but that's by the by.

 

 

I edited my post further up because it was full of mistakes but I may as well put this bit here.

 

It is quite difficult to stand by Allardyce and Owen, when the two of them clearly don't belong together. If you have watched Owen this season then you'll know he's been reduced to a spectator a lot of the time and challenging centre halves twice his size for aeriel balls, it is a shocking misuse of such a talented player. The fact he has got goals is testament to his quality but he has had very little service (as in ball to feet in the final third) at all. Many see the only solution as a change in management or a change in player, and I don't believe he'll be a Newcastle player beyond next summer. As for Allardyce, who knows.

 

The problem for the manager is that Owen is such a high profile he player he has to play him, and has to accommodate his team to fit Owen in. We were playing 4-3-3 before Owen returned to fitness, now we play a kind of disjointed 4-4-2, against Reading we had no wingers and yesterday we had wingers playing on the wrong sides. Yet regardless of the changes in personnel and formation, we are still playing Allardyce's "percentages" football and Owen is left to try and do what he can with whatever comes his way. When Allardyce came there were fears that he only knew how to play football the Bolton way and I think it's safe to say he's building us up to do the same thing. All of his signings ticked the usual Allardyce boxes, strength, size, workrate, solidity and experience were the buzzwords of our transfer window. IMO Allardyce needs to wise up and get the best out of our matchwinners, but I remain to be convinced that he will ever change. He seems to have his style and he doesn't apologise for it, he won't change for anyone. Owen is accommodated because he has to be, but I don't believe Allardyce knows how to get the best out of him. It's a sad state of affairs and it's not unlikely that neither of them will be here this time next year.

[Parky]

Still a very good player and with service will score goals without fuss like buttering toast.

[Decky]

People need to realise it wouldnt take a lot to get Owen in on the goals. We wouldnt have to change our style massively to suit him. IMO its all the long balls, we need to cut that out, it simply wont work for our front men as even Martins would struggle with them. If we played the ball along the ground more often and played short passes we would be much more effective when it comes to Owen, that kind of football may even see Owen and Martins form a brilliant partnership up front.

[ohmelads]

People need to realise it wouldnt take a lot to get Owen in on the goals. We wouldnt have to change our style massively to suit him. IMO its all the long balls, we need to cut that out, it simply wont work for our front men as even Martins would struggle with them. If we played the ball along the ground more often and played short passes we would be much more effective when it comes to Owen, that kind of football may even see Owen and Martins form a brilliant partnership up front.

 

I don't think the constant chopping and changing helps. Butt and Emre has looked the best midfield partnership to me, they dominated Spurs (who were admittedly poor, but we won that game in midfield) and were always the best partnership under Roeder as well. When they play in the centre there is a nice balance with a mixture of grit and flair and with natural wingers out wide we look a balanced enough side. After the Spurs game Emre was pushed out wide left (where he has always struggled) and against Portsmouth he was dropped. There has been no time to allow any partnership to develop in any area of the field, and yet almost all of the changes have been unforced. At times it has looked like chaos and when people are caught out of position they play the way they're facing or they hoof it long.

 

When Viduka returns I think Owen will get some more joy, simply because Viduka will get onto more of those longer passes. The problem with Viduka is he's as slow as ever and most centre backs will still beat him to the majority of high balls. His fitness is another problem, I expect him to be in and out of the team all season.

 

Martins drops deep and sometimes works the channels, but his link up play is missing and he's not a good partner for Owen. Viduka has the link up play but he too can't win those aeriel balls on a consistent basis, lacks movement and certainly won't work the channels or create space for Owen because he only plays through the middle. We shouldn't set our team up solely around Owen, but at the moment we're playing to his weaknesses and it's no wonder that teams just don't fear him.

[Guest optimistic nit]

3 goals in 9 (6 starts) isnt bad for this team. plus yesterday's assist to the OG. give him the ball and more often than not, he'll get a shot on target.

 

Or 2 league goals from 12 games since he came back from his knee injury.

 

His legs have gone, a few games this season he's been through one on one with the keeper but he just hasn't got the pace to sprint away from defenders, meaning he has to rush his shot from outside the box which he's useless at.

 

The toon army - the most loyal, genuine, greatest fans in the world.

 

Jesus, a couple of results go against you and suddenly you turn against the team. I've said it on another thread but I truly believe that the fickleness of you lot is a major contribution as to why the club hasn't been successful. The animosity and anxiety that must flow from the stands if you're not 3-0 up by half time must cripple the players. Hopefully, Owen will be off in Jan and then you can spend the money on someone good enough and worthy for you lads to actually get behind and you know, perhaps not get on his back if he hasn't scored for 3 games.

 

 

 

 

 

If it bothers you that much then start a Justice for Michael Owen fund you bin dipping prick.

 

he's got a point, he's wrong about owen, but he's right about our 'fans'.

 

All football fans are the same, the Scoucers were burning Gerrard's shirt outside the ground when he looked like joining Chelsea.

 

 

doesn't make it right, and i think we're amoungst the worst at it atm.

[Guest Pie]

Not sure thats right though. Message boards tend to get lots of people who either create their own momentum (e.g. Steven Taylor will be Beckenbauer by the time he is 21 etc) or have people moaning. Fair enough. I take it all with a pinch of salt. Its like 606, an awful lot of people talk utter shit - like 'Chris of Basingstoke' who wants to moan about Alex Ferguson's team selection despite never having heard of the M62.

Lots walked yesterday. Thats their prerogative. We have put up with enough lately (past 3 or 4 years). Generally though the atmosphere was supportive - at least where i was. My gripe with Sam is how ugly the football has been, even against the likes of Barnsley. I pay money to be entertained not to watch utter shite that gets no outcome. Personally, I 'd be happier if he concentrated on his own club rather than commenting on others on Sunday mornings on telly etc.

He bought well enough but the obvious flaws to me lie in midfield. We create nowt and are so pedestrian. Some might comment on the other teams but the likes of Ronaldo, Hleb, Rosicky etc are exceptional technically and have slightly above average pace. Ours arent and one has less than average pace. In the centre it shows how desperate we are when we bring back Barton who is nowhere near match fit. Certainly Scholes, Fabregas, Gerrard and Essien won't be losing any sleep over our lots. Nor will Elano etc.

Basically, the squad is pretty weak in key areas. I'm not as worried about up front or at the back as I am in our complete inability to create anything. We can moan about left footed players playing on the right etc but Lionel Messi and Ronaldihno seem to manage perfectly well!

[Guest rebel_yell12]

Ohmelads -- I'm shocked.  I'm utterly shocked to see such sense in this thread! 

 

Owen is incredibly talented, and is definitely a top class striker.  However, I agree that the current style of play is not suiting him in the least.  It's harsh to judge him based on the last few matches, when the team looked terrible and he had nothing to work with.  I'm undecided thus far if Owen and Allardyce's system will ever work well, but a bit more consistency in the midfield selection and in tactics (stop the defensive away setup) would probably help.  I'm not greatly impressed with Big Sam thus far, but I remain impressed with Michael Owen.  He's constantly making runs, working hard, trying to get something and I like that.  I think I'd like Martins more if I didn't see fans making a big fuss about "Oba's better than Owen, Owen's sh**, sell Owen" rather than thinking that there's a way to accomodate both players -- and admitting that Martins is not better than Owen (though he looks promising), he's not proven that yet, not consistently.   

 

None of the strikers scored in the last two matches (hell, no one from NEWCASTLE scored), I don't see why Owen is the one getting slagged off.  The service has been woefully absent, and neither Martins or Owen should be criticised for the last two results.  Martins has worked very hard, if not always wisely, and Owen has managed to assist with an OG and been working very hard himself.  I guess that hard work is all I can ask of them at this point, until they get enough service to show their quality.

 

PS  I continue to disagree with you that Owen has been looking for a move away, though.  I don't see any logic in the argument, honestly.  Just some hurt feelings from some very loyal fans, who can't quite step back and look logically at the situation (Liverpool fans seem to specialize in this re:Owen).

[Cronky]

Owen has changed, there's no question of that. You only have to look at his physique now and compare it with six years ago. He must be about 10lb heavier.

 

Basically, he's slower but stronger. His link-up play, his touch on the ball and his heading has improved, but he can't outrun defenders when he gets behind a defence any more.

 

Even at the time we bought him, I thought he was poor value for the fee and wages that we were paying. He's still useful, but I don't think he suits the system that Sam wants to play, and it wouldn't surprise me if he's off at the end of the season.

[fredbob]

Christ, are we really questioning the abilities of our best striker? Form is temporary, class is permanent (not that i think Owens performances have been down to form) i personnaly thinks its down to how the teams is playing, Owen like all of our strikers need service and it just isnt coming. Full stop.

[biggs]

Imho we will not get the best out of owen with big sam in charge and lets be honest i dont think many will disagree,bigsam tinkerman hasnt a fookin clue by his own admission what his best team is and at this moment in time he is under huge pressure to turn things round with a demoralised team ,god help him if we get beat off the scum and liverpool come and wind us up after taking the lead which doesnt bear thinking about.realistically i can just see that happening or am i just being pessimistic . >

[ohmelads]

As sad as it is to remember this stat, I do recall the commentators saying when Owen was taken off after an hour at Derby that he had only had 14 touches of the ball! Owen (and Martins) can't be blamed at the moment because when we're playing poorly they are almost left watching the game go by. Martins in particular has found himself dropping deeper and deeper to see any of the ball and as a result finds himself in congested areas of the field where he isn't effective, and then small sections of fans will use that to criticise him. As you say rebel yell, Owen keeps making the runs but the balls are not coming. Defenders prefer it when everything is happening in front of them, we haven't had wide players getting in behind the defence, we haven't had the through balls to find Owen's runs, all we've had are long balls up the middle. Martins will always be more effective than Owen with these because he is stronger, quicker and has a greater leap. His goal against Man City and his goal against Spurs both came from long punts and Owen could not have scored these goals.

 

I agree with those who say the problems are in the midfield and not the defence or up front. When we played Spurs our defence had a good game but the midfield protected them excellently, the service to Spurs' forwards was almost non-existent because we crowded them out of the game. It's true Cacapa had a 'mare yesterday and the defence let us down but that was just one game and the midfield is the main worry for me. Barton is the shiny new player and I get the feeling he's the manager's choice but he's clearly not fully fit yet. Emre and Butt have put in the best midfield display in recent times and are something of a proven partnership, espescially when compared to the alternatives. In our current situation, I think back to basics would be a good call, Zog on the left, Milner on the right, and Butt-Emre in the middle. At least with that you know what you're getting, and so do the players. Butt is suspended now, so I think I'd go with Geremi-Emre against the mackems. Barton is working his way to full fitness and I'm not sure this game would be right for him, he looked a bit of a headless chicken against Portsmouth and the mackem game will get him riled up. Geremi's positional sense and cautious head alongside Emre's more creative passing might give us a good balance to win the middle of the park, or at least it sounds good in theory.

[Taylor Swift]

oml, fuck me, have you ever thought of applying for a coaching position at the club? You and johnnypd would sort out this lot, that's for sure. You're defo right about going back to the basics i.e. sticking a right winger on the right, a left winger on the left and playing dynamic and balanced center midfielders.

 

Allardyce is fiddling around too much with the midfield - what a tit. Barton was shite, can't believe he actually started. I mean, after 10 minutes you could see he needed fucking hours on the ball to make a fucking decision. And then whenever he actually decided to do something, it was shite. Even Butt, who perenially gives the ball away, gave it away less than Barton did. Wtf was Emre doing on the bench for 60 minutes? Why did Allardyce wait that long to make an offensive substitution? Did he need the PA guy to announce that it was 3-1 and that we were being dominated before he was going to do something about it? Too slow, too stuck in his ways - a feature he's exhibited quite a few times this season now. Change quick Sammy or you won't be here long. He's also not doing himself any favours as well with the defensive tactics away from home. Just frustrating because he does seem to know better; he speaks a good game and usually is able to identify where we were weak (or at least says it to the fans) but then game time comes and he does stupid shit like stick Milner on the left. Now any defender with a brain will know that a) Milner's slow as fuck, so b) he will not be trying to take the ball to the byline. They'll also know that c) Milner's favourite move is the cut-back so even if by some miraculous divine intervention he gets past the defender, he will cut back to his right foot to cross it. Which all leads to Milner being useless as fuck even though he had a lot of touches in the first half. Now imagine if Zoggy had had all those touches; all those chances 1 v 1 with Pamarot (or whoever it was playing RB for them), all those chances to try to get to byline and deliver a good cross for our lethal striker Owen, or to cut in and try a shot (which he's shown he can do - think Boro away this season). It was just obvious from the start that this wasn't going to work. Everytime Milner cut back, he had to pass it into center midfield or to just outside the area, so Owen/Smith had to drop back and pick the ball up from there with their backs towards goal and the rest of our players pretty much static because the ball was going backwards. It hasn't worked on the many occasions he's tried it this season so what made Allardyce think it was going to work against Pompey?!

 

The next game cannot come fast enough. I just wanna see some fight now, some spirit, some and most importantly, some ambition (players + manager).

 

Edit - Re: the actual topic (Mickey), he was pretty shit but then what do you expect from a midget playing 30 meters away from his favourite area, and up against Sol Campbell? Owen can't do that anymore. He can't sprint away from the defence and his movement is useless when its so far away from goal. When he does create some space for himself, it's too far away from goal for him to actually make use of it. There was one time when someone lobbed a ball forward and Owen was seemingly through on goal, but then when he brought the ball down, he didn't have the acceleration to just power through on goal so he had to slow it down and then try to curl it past James, which of course because he's not the hardest striker of the ball, struggled to and was easily saved. The Owen of old would have sprinted away and slotted it into the bottom corner. The newer Owen requires that ball to land closer to goal so he can actually utilize the time he has created for himself, but he can't do anything now if he's 20+ yards away from goal!!

[spizz energi]

Just needs better service. He was getting it at 'pool & Madrid and he was scoring for fun. Pele in his prime would have trouble getting to double figures with our midfield behind him.

[EthiGeordie]

Lay of Michael Owen he just need better service and more creativity he is world class player on average team.

[Guest optimistic nit]

basically we just need players who are good on the ball and know what to do with it. we have a lot of good strikers who make good off the ball runs and lots of midfielders who are good at closing people down and retriving the ball but we don't have any technical players in our team bar zog and viduka and at a stretch emre. we need good on the ball players or all our stregnth off the ball is useless if we cant pick out runs or give the ball back to the opposition.

[Ally]

If we had Viduka fit I think we'd see a better Owen, the direct style of play would bring out more. On Saturday balls were just passing by him as he tried to run on to them but couldn't keep up.

 

There was a moment in the first half where he tried to chase down the keeper who had received a backpass. He put his head down and seemed to sprint about as fast as he could, he went about as quick as I run ffs.

 

Its also a bit of a worry how he doesn't seem comfortable taking the ball further into the box. He gets the ball on the edge/just inside and tries to place it in the corner. Its got to be a hell of a shot to beat the keeper in the bottom corner from there.

[sparta]

i belive for one that our creativity (if thats what you want to call it) have been absolut shite in every game this season, delivery has been so poor that the only one who have been able to deliver a proper ball has been Zog, and that only on a few occations!

Delivery and a proper passing game  should be main thing on sams program every day! becouse its horrible to see our tactics to use owen on 30-40 meters. everyone who have seen owen since his youth know thats not the best option! at least when hes got 4 man behind him!

our winger use has been shite as well!we cant have our wingers have to go pass left midfielder and left back every time, remember its zog and milner, not messi and ronaldo! usually, depending on any formation you play, its all about getting past the joints of midfield by passing to the wingers!

Our "creative" force of emre and barton (and butt the headless chicken) has been absolutely shite as well! emre has had spells... well... spells at corner kicks! barton has offered one good pass, and one excellent one! butt.... well... hes just been running around kicking at people  :parky:

i dislike the way we play! in every way now! its hurting my eyes acually!

 

we dont bring LB or RB forward, maybe someone would disagree with me on that point, but show me at least 3 times when our LB and RB has been over the centre half in one match and ill be stunned!

we dont play our wingers into better positions,

we dont use our strikers in the way we should,

and we dont use our central midfielders in the way we want to....

 

seems we have a basic problem? or is it just me 

 

so sam... im sorry for a bit of critisism right now! but i for one are certain that owen is a great player, and what he has behind him is a good squad, played the wrong way!

[Skirge]

He does need better service yes but he also looks like Scott Parker did after he fell out with the fans, there is no interest there he is just going through the motions. It would be a tad bit easier  to give him service if he was making an effort to  find space or make darting runs into the box.

[jackyboy]

Within 2 years, probably less, Owens place in the England side will have gone to Walcott.

 

Thing is with Owen, give him a chance and he has a high success rate, what he doesn't do is create much himself. He needs a Hesky/Crouch to feed off

[toptoon]

Firstly i'm not massively bothered if we keep owen or not as long as we get a very good replacement. Martins is the future imo and will only get better. Droping him has not done his confidence any good at all.

 

Sam after a good start is chiefly to blame as he has messed up playing for a point and setting us up in a poorly disjointed way. (i.e. no wingers at Derby etc etc)

 

We need more creativity in the midfield so with the players we've got now that means Milner on the RW, Zoggy on the LW and Emre in the CM, If Owen plays, Martins needs to be the striker that drops back into midfield when we haven't got the ball and then making runs forward when we have. Have owen lurking up top. Alternatively sub/drop Owen then  Martins up top lurking and Smith dropping back into the midfield as he does link the two very well imo.

 

In Jan (or the end of the season) i'd like to see us sign Berbatov/Ashton/Jones or a quick, good 'Big man' type striker to play with either Martins or Owen. But for now we should play the way i described above imo

[merlin]

NO striker will flourish the way we are currently playing - there is RUBBISH service from midfield(which is largely by-passed by hit & hope balls from defenders under pressure ; there is only Emre who can see an defence-splitting pass(the type that Owen in particular thrives on) and he is inconsistent.

There is not enough movement off the ball to create space for the forwards and the build-up, apart from hopeful punts from defenders, is laboured and slow - esp when Geremi is in the side, but he is not the only culprit..

We lack both the players AND the system to create many clear cut chances - by that I mean those created as a result of decent build-up NOT by percentage football relying on mistakes from opposition defenders..

This gets you by with the poorer teams at home, but, as Reading showed, not even them away from home.

Pompey's movement left us for dead in Saturday's match - if Owen had been playing for them, the odds on him scoring would have been much greater than playing in our system - just think back to the Boro match -

both goals from individual brilliance - NOT from properly-constructed moves...

It must be a nightmare playing up front for NUFC right now - even Shearer would have found it tough.

[Guest SLK]

Allardyce needs to cut down on his long ball style a bit...It has been damaging the team and not playing to our strikers' strength...If Viduka is back then I can see why Allardyce want to have some long balls thrown in the air but when Viduka is out, Martins and Owen are not going to be Viduka and Allardyce needs to be flexible and change his style when players change...