What Is The Biggest Derby In Britain?

[Guest gggg]

In the Merseyside derby supporters from both club can almost sit together, that could never happen in the old firm nor tyne-wear.

 

Exactly why it's not a proper derby to me. Sitting together in the crowd laughing and joking doesnt strike me as being a fierce rivalry, the fact that you get different supporters from the same family probably dilutes it all.

 

[johnnypd]

You know what I don't get.

 

Games like the Mighty Blues vs the Forces of Darkness or Liverpool vs Everton. These are what I call derbies. Where the teams are from the same place and the support is intermingled, sometimes even between families.

 

But Newcastle vs Sunderland. Is that the same thing? Two teams from two distinct places, close as they are? How many Newcastle fans have Sunderland fans for workmates, neighbors, or grandads? I doubt its many.

 

Newcastle vs Sunderland, Soton vs Pompey, Norwich vs Ipswich etc, are not derbies. They are rivalries. Discuss.

 

Well. They might be derbies as I'm not sure as to what the exact definition of the word is. But they are different?

 

(See also, Barcelona vs Real Madrid "El Derby" equals biggest derby in the world. No it fucking isnt. Its 300 and odd fucking miles away.)

 

 

 

newcastle-gateshead-washington-sunderland, newcastle-north shields-south shields-sunderland is all one place essentially. with a few routes you could conceivably walk from the south part of sunderland to the most northern point of newcastle without a break in the buildings. everybody who lives or works in newcastle knows mackems, and likewise for people in sunderland knowing geordies. then you have outlying areas like washington, towns in county durham, south shields where the split is 50:50 which is the same as what you'd get in manchester or liverpool. so there is the element of living in close proximity here, might not be as intermingled as manchester or liverpool but this just makes it more intense, more tribal. that is what puts the tyne wear derby above the other two, there it is just football, here it is city vs city, NUFC represents newcastle and nufc supporters support the city in the same way that everton or man utd DON'T represent their city. this adds an extra spice to the occasion. similar in the old firm derby, but there it is not inter-city rivalry but sectarian/cultural rivalry which also gives that fixture extra tension.

 

also derby doesn't mean a rivalry within a city, it means any "big" sporting event, originally derived from the horse race of the same name. it's then been applied to local rivalries as they tend to be the most intense with most at stake. sunderland-newcastle or pompey soton may not be rivalries within a city but they're still local derbies.

[Tooj]

I voted Liverpool v. Everton, and although I'm not entirely neutral I have lived amongst the Americans long enough now that I feel a bit removed from the larger footballing world and think I was very logical in the conclusion.  Here's my reasoning:

 

Newcastle v. Sunderland -- how often is this played?  Sunderland are usually literally not in Newcastle's league.  Also, they aren't from the same city, just near to one another.  Generally, I think Sunderland have nothing to fear from this match, though Newcastle certainly does.  Local lads in the squads bring something to this one though.

 

Arsenal v. Spurs -- from this side of the pond, the London "derbies" don't carry the same weight, as half the clubs fans always seem to be there for a social event, not to see the football.  The "prawn sandwich" brigade, I suppose.  Also, how many of either squad's players are invested in the derby?  Arsenal's squad I highly doubt any of them are born and bred fans of the club (all being foreign).  Likewise, I've met a lot of non-local fans of both clubs.

 

Rangers v. Celtic -- is this a derby or the Scottish championship match?  The "derby" qualities are outranked by the fact that they seem to be the only perenially decent clubs in Scotland.  Somehow that dilutes the effect for me.  Also, they play each other far more often than the other derbies.

 

ManUtd v. ManCity -- this isn't quite to the level of Sunderland v. Newcastle, but how often is this match competitive in recent years (this year excepted)?  Because it includes ManUtd, it also carries the same issue of the London clubs -- fans that are "glory hunters" not locals invested in the derby.  Still, local fans and local players can make this one interesting.

 

Liverpool v. Everton -- same city, local fans, teams that are fairly well-matched with some routine (that is, Everton is often in the Top 8, close to Liverpool's Top 4).  The squads tend to have at least a few local boys who are themselves involved in the derby spirit. 

 

Full on Sky Boy.

[madras]

the biggest derby is the one to which you owe allegiance

[ohmelads]

People saying Liverpool Everton have never lived in the city or been to a Derby there.

 

Apart from a few chavs its nothing these days, was sat in the Everton end a few years abck (about 5 years ago I think) and all you could hear for the whole 90 minutes were a couple of old red boys complaining about how bad both teams and the atmosphere was.

 

Left very disappointed with the experience

 

I agree mate, I've been in Liverpool for about half a dozen of their derbies and it is nothing like the hatred that is assosciated with the Tyne/Wear divide. People might see that as my bias but all I can say is go to both places and see for yourself.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

People saying Liverpool Everton have never lived in the city or been to a Derby there.

 

Apart from a few chavs its nothing these days, was sat in the Everton end a few years abck (about 5 years ago I think) and all you could hear for the whole 90 minutes were a couple of old red boys complaining about how bad both teams and the atmosphere was.

 

Left very disappointed with the experience

 

I agree mate, I've been in Liverpool for about half a dozen of their derbies and it is nothing like the hatred that is assosciated with the Tyne/Wear divide. People might see that as my bias but all I can say is go to both places and see for yourself.

 

I tell you what though, one my first Saturday in Liverpool the Mancs were in town, me being little mister oblivious walk through the City Centre in my Toon shirt (keeping it real during the end of the Ruud days here!). Watched the news later and a full scale riot had broken out around about the same time I was there.

 

Maybe Scousers and Mancs uniting agains their hatred of true Northerners.

[brummie]

It is different - not necessarily 'bigger' - but different when it is all within the city.

 

For example, I would never walk through the centre of Brum in a Villa scarf or shirt, not even on a non matchday, for fear of trouble. Would you think twice about walking through Newcastle on a non matchday in your Toon shirts?

 

Sharing a city with your rivals is totally different. We share ours with two rivals, which makes it worse. West Brom is 3 miles from Villa Park, Blues is probably closer. That's why we had so much trouble a few weeks ago, and that is why the police here are trying to make us play derby matches at 10am on a Sunday morning.

 

For my money the nastiest (not, nastiest, not biggest) are the Manchester and Birmingham derbies, which i think are slightly worse than the Newcastle Sunderland one for the above reason, and because in both one club has been massively in the shadow of the other (sorry Dr Spec), which is a breeding ground for arrogance on one side and hatred on the other.

 

Although the Newcastle - Sunderland and Villa - Birmingham derbies do have the added attraction that they are punctuated by periods of absence as either the mackems or Blues are out of the top flight.

 

The biggest is a no-brainer - the Glasgow derby by an absolute mile.

[McCormick]

Got to be the old firm- it basically divides an entire country

[brummie]

Got to be the old firm- it basically divides an entire country

 

And with the religious / nationalism aspect thrown in, it is unique.

[Guest Pie]

No real answer. Whichever one is yours is the 'biggest'

 

Can't see one-city derbies being anywhere near as volatile as Newcastle Sunderland or Man Utd Liverpool.

They 'choose' their team even though they are in the same city. Load of bollocks that. If they didnt then some fucker in their history did.

 

Our lot are (mostly) born into it by geography or the geography of their ancestry.

 

Which one would I watch independent of who i support? Maybe Man Utd vs Liverpool if we call that a derby. To me its local enough to be one. Particularly if Boro reckon we are a derby.

[Dr Spectrum]

The thing I was saying tho. One City derbies like ours are a different animal to two city derbies like yours. (I suppose Ipswich-Norwich is a better example, they're bloody miles away from each other but its still considered a derby). One is Tribal warfare, the other a Bi-Annual bragging rights contest. I don't understand why theyre under the same banner, "Derby", when they are blantantly different. And I think comparing the magnitude of the games is folly when they mean different things.

 

Slight tangent. Another thing that gets on me nerves. When you see games like Wigan vs City or City vs Blackburn being described as a "North West Derby". I suppose its the same with you and Boro. Just cos two teams are relatively close to each other, it doesnt make it a derby (sic)!  As Connor MacLeod once said...there can be only one. Per team. 

[Kev]

i thought much more people would vote for millwall v west ham when i created this

[madras]

no joking...the likes of darlo-hartlepool can be quite tasty. cardiff-swansea is very violent and blackburn-burnley-bolton may sound like it's a knockout but aint for the faint hearted

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

The thing I was saying tho. One City derbies like ours are a different animal to two city derbies like yours. (I suppose Ipswich-Norwich is a better example, they're bloody miles away from each other but its still considered a derby). One is Tribal warfare, the other a Bi-Annual bragging rights contest. I don't understand why theyre under the same banner, "Derby", when they are blantantly different. And I think comparing the magnitude of the games is folly when they mean different things.

 

Slight tangent. Another thing that gets on me nerves. When you see games like Wigan vs City or City vs Blackburn being described as a "North West Derby". I suppose its the same with you and Boro. Just cos two teams are relatively close to each other, it doesnt make it a derby (sic)!  As Connor MacLeod once said...there can be only one. Per team. 

I'm not having a pop here, but NEVER refer to sunderland as a city.  It might have been given the title, but it doesn't have a cathedral, and didn't have a university up until a few years ago - 2 things used to classify a city.  It's a large town.

 

 

And while I'm on, its obviously the Old Firm.  Fair enough the fact they play each other at least 4, maybe even 5 or 6 times a season so they aren't as "special".  But I've spoke to Glasweigans who have supported either club, and the sheer hatred and abuse, and stories they have about incidents with each other makes the Newcastle vs Sunderland Shields Ferry thing seem like a playfight.

 

Having said that, I've seen Durham City vs. Bedlington Terriers, and for non-league, that was some game.  Tackles flying in and even a little scuffle between fans!

[Tooj]

no joking...the likes of darlo-hartlepool can be quite tasty. cardiff-swansea is very violent and blackburn-burnley-bolton may sound like it's a knockout but aint for the faint hearted

 

Darlo and Hartlepool is canny tasty like as Madras put it.

[Guest Pie]

The thing I was saying tho. One City derbies like ours are a different animal to two city derbies like yours. (I suppose Ipswich-Norwich is a better example, they're bloody miles away from each other but its still considered a derby). One is Tribal warfare, the other a Bi-Annual bragging rights contest. I don't understand why theyre under the same banner, "Derby", when they are blantantly different. And I think comparing the magnitude of the games is folly when they mean different things.

 

Slight tangent. Another thing that gets on me nerves. When you see games like Wigan vs City or City vs Blackburn being described as a "North West Derby". I suppose its the same with you and Boro. Just cos two teams are relatively close to each other, it doesnt make it a derby (sic)!  As Connor MacLeod once said...there can be only one. Per team. 

Ipswich Norwich is way more volatile than City Utd. Lots do live in teh middle and whilst its a fair distance, travel in East Anglia is very different to anywhere else I have lived!

For most of the last half century the Manchester derby hasnt even been a competition. I think the tribal thing based on geography and identity with your town/city lends itself to more hassle. In one city it is just fabricated 'i like them' 'you like them' stuff. Its lacks that local pride in your city/town.

 

The only derby that comes close to what local places can manage to stoke up is Celtic Rangers for very difffernt reasons.

 

The ones that piss me off are Londoners/Scousers - and to a lesser extent Mancs, where you have half of one family supporting different teams. What the fuck is all that about? Me fatha wouldn't tolerate shite like that like. Nor would any other Newcastle born male (other than Gordon Armstrong - God bless his 'celebration').

[olliemort]

Rangers V celtic defo

[Colos Short and Curlies]

The thing I was saying tho. One City derbies like ours are a different animal to two city derbies like yours. (I suppose Ipswich-Norwich is a better example, they're bloody miles away from each other but its still considered a derby). One is Tribal warfare, the other a Bi-Annual bragging rights contest. I don't understand why theyre under the same banner, "Derby", when they are blantantly different. And I think comparing the magnitude of the games is folly when they mean different things.

 

Slight tangent. Another thing that gets on me nerves. When you see games like Wigan vs City or City vs Blackburn being described as a "North West Derby". I suppose its the same with you and Boro. Just cos two teams are relatively close to each other, it doesnt make it a derby (sic)!  As Connor MacLeod once said...there can be only one. Per team. 

I'm not having a pop here, but NEVER refer to sunderland as a city.  It might have been given the title, but it doesn't have a cathedral, and didn't have a university up until a few years ago - 2 things used to classify a city.  It's a large town.

 

 

And while I'm on, its obviously the Old Firm.  Fair enough the fact they play each other at least 4, maybe even 5 or 6 times a season so they aren't as "special".  But I've spoke to Glasweigans who have supported either club, and the sheer hatred and abuse, and stories they have about incidents with each other makes the Newcastle vs Sunderland Shields Ferry thing seem like a playfight.

 

Having said that, I've seen Durham City vs. Bedlington Terriers, and for non-league, that was some game.  Tackles flying in and even a little scuffle between fans!

 

Hexham v Corbridge was/is pretty meaty too

[Dr Spectrum]

The thing I was saying tho. One City derbies like ours are a different animal to two city derbies like yours. (I suppose Ipswich-Norwich is a better example, they're bloody miles away from each other but its still considered a derby). One is Tribal warfare, the other a Bi-Annual bragging rights contest. I don't understand why theyre under the same banner, "Derby", when they are blantantly different. And I think comparing the magnitude of the games is folly when they mean different things.

 

Slight tangent. Another thing that gets on me nerves. When you see games like Wigan vs City or City vs Blackburn being described as a "North West Derby". I suppose its the same with you and Boro. Just cos two teams are relatively close to each other, it doesnt make it a derby (sic)!  As Connor MacLeod once said...there can be only one. Per team. 

Ipswich Norwich is way more volatile than City Utd. Lots do live in teh middle and whilst its a fair distance, travel in East Anglia is very different to anywhere else I have lived!

For most of the last half century the Manchester derby hasnt even been a competition. I think the tribal thing based on geography and identity with your town/city lends itself to more hassle. In one city it is just fabricated 'i like them' 'you like them' stuff. Its lacks that local pride in your city/town.

 

The only derby that comes close to what local places can manage to stoke up is Celtic Rangers for very difffernt reasons.

 

The ones that piss me off are Londoners/Scousers - and to a lesser extent Mancs, where you have half of one family supporting different teams. What the fuck is all that about? Me fatha wouldn't tolerate shite like that like. Nor would any other Newcastle born male (other than Gordon Armstrong - God bless his 'celebration').

 

tbf there isnt much of that split family stuff going on. My family are all blues. Practically everyone I know shares their allegiance with the rest of their family. Struggle to think of anyone who doesnt (serious fans only). My Grandad was a Red but my Mum never had any interest in carrying on his line (Thank God  ).

 

This volatile stuff. Fans from split rivalries hate each other to a far greater degree. I don't think you'll never go to Ipswich and see different shirts sat next to each other like you do at Goodison. But they don't have anywhere near the same level of fearing the next few months and years of crowing from 49% of the workplace. Some might, but overall the stakes are different for the supporters that fill up Eastlands compared to those at Portman Rd. IMO.

[brummie]

The ones that piss me off are Londoners/Scousers - and to a lesser extent Mancs, where you have half of one family supporting different teams. What the fuck is all that about? Me fatha wouldn't tolerate shite like that like. Nor would any other Newcastle born male (other than Gordon Armstrong - God bless his 'celebration').

 

That's the thing about divided cities, this kind of thing is inevitable.

 

I've been following Villa for over 30 years. My father has been a Birmingham City supporter since 1950.

 

One brother is a Villa fan, one is a Blues fan. On my mom's side (who are from north brum - pretty much entirely Villa territory) the family are all Villa fans, and have been since the 19th century (old stories passed down through generations about ancestors), with the exception of one uncle who is a West Brom fan. My mom's more righteous family members got to me first, and I've always been a Villan. I am pretty much unable to discuss football with my father without it turning into an argument. He has only just started taking my calls again following our derby win.

 

That's the kind of stuff that goes on all the time in shared cities.

 

 

 

[Keefaz]

These things are very personal. I have a mate who's extended family are Geordies, but he and his immediate family are all Londoners. They moved up here when we was a nipper so he and his brother are Newcastle fans but his older brother and dad are both Spurs fans. His derby's when we we play the Spuds and he's on edge like any of us would be the day before a mackem derby.

 

Although I've always thought the Tyne-Wear derby was important, I'm mates with a lot more mackems now, play football with a lot of them, too, so it's taken on more meaning in recent years.

[ohmelads]

It is different - not necessarily 'bigger' - but different when it is all within the city.

 

For example, I would never walk through the centre of Brum in a Villa scarf or shirt, not even on a non matchday, for fear of trouble. Would you think twice about walking through Newcastle on a non matchday in your Toon shirts?

 

I don't know about Birmingham but in Liverpool reds and blues walk around in their shirts all the time. It is certainly different when it's a matter of "where you come from" versus "where I come from", that sort of thing makes it a lot more serious. People's colours aren't the only thing being challenged or taken the piss out of but the very place they come from. That's probably why I saw a lot more problems between Liverpool and Man Utd than I ever did between Liverpool and Everton. When it's about colours it becomes a matter of bragging rights but when it's about your people and the place you come from it becomes a lot more tribal. Up here it's not reds and blues it's Geordies and Mackems and that's the big difference, it's about people and the place they represent. That's why the idea of having a brother from the other side would just be unthinkable to most people around here.

[Guest Pie]

The ones that piss me off are Londoners/Scousers - and to a lesser extent Mancs, where you have half of one family supporting different teams. What the f*** is all that about? Me fatha wouldn't tolerate s**** like that like. Nor would any other Newcastle born male (other than Gordon Armstrong - God bless his 'celebration').

 

That's the thing about divided cities, this kind of thing is inevitable.

 

I've been following Villa for over 30 years. My father has been a Birmingham City supporter since 1950.

 

One brother is a Villa fan, one is a Blues fan. On my mom's side (who are from north brum - pretty much entirely Villa territory) the family are all Villa fans, and have been since the 19th century (old stories passed down through generations about ancestors), with the exception of one uncle who is a West Brom fan. My mom's more righteous family members got to me first, and I've always been a Villan. I am pretty much unable to discuss football with my father without it turning into an argument. He has only just started taking my calls again following our derby win.

 

That's the kind of stuff that goes on all the time in shared cities.

 

 

 

Thats why it will NEVER have the intensity of what we have either. I'd disown any fucker who was Red and White in our family. There isnt. On either side. Never will be either. Ditched a lass immediately after humping her when I found out she was red and white. Probably taking things too far but I have never and will never own anything red. Same in the rest of the family. The thought of actually living with one of the fuckers is just fucking freaky. You can pick and choose anything you like. Just not your football club.

[Superior Acuña]

Liverpool everton?!  there were liverpool fans openly in the everton end this year.  Liverpool manu is bigger.

[brummie]

The ones that piss me off are Londoners/Scousers - and to a lesser extent Mancs, where you have half of one family supporting different teams. What the f*** is all that about? Me fatha wouldn't tolerate s**** like that like. Nor would any other Newcastle born male (other than Gordon Armstrong - God bless his 'celebration').

 

That's the thing about divided cities, this kind of thing is inevitable.

 

I've been following Villa for over 30 years. My father has been a Birmingham City supporter since 1950.

 

One brother is a Villa fan, one is a Blues fan. On my mom's side (who are from north brum - pretty much entirely Villa territory) the family are all Villa fans, and have been since the 19th century (old stories passed down through generations about ancestors), with the exception of one uncle who is a West Brom fan. My mom's more righteous family members got to me first, and I've always been a Villan. I am pretty much unable to discuss football with my father without it turning into an argument. He has only just started taking my calls again following our derby win.

 

That's the kind of stuff that goes on all the time in shared cities.

 

 

 

Thats why it will NEVER have the intensity of what we have either. I'd disown any fucker who was Red and White in our family. There isnt. On either side. Never will be either. Ditched a lass immediately after humping her when I found out she was red and white. Probably taking things too far but I have never and will never own anything red. Same in the rest of the family. The thought of actually living with one of the fuckers is just fucking freaky. You can pick and choose anything you like. Just not your football club.

 

All fair comment, but when they're around you from the minute you leave the house for work till the minute you get home at night, it changes things, it is horrible. When you live in a one club town, it is different.

 

I'm a grown, reasonably educated man, and I fucking hate them. I see them around town, I see them on the train, I see them in the pub, I see them everywhere. It creates constant tension.

 

Having them in the family is almost inevitable at such close quarters.