The point of no return

[Guest Knightrider]

The only time to sack a manager is at the point of no return, if after 15 league games in charge we deem this to be the point of no return, then we all want shot with shit.

 

18 points in Sam's first 15 league games is over a point more than the average points tally new managers pick up in their first 15 league games in charge. Fergie and Rafa in their first 15 league games in charge of their respective clubs only picked up just 6 extra points than Sam has, despite starting from much better positions. Rafa took over a club that had finished 4th and had a settled back-four with players like Gerrard in midfield for example.

 

Redknapp and Hughes seem to be popular names all of a sudden, guess how many points they won in their first 15 league games in charge? 14.

 

We are exactly where we are in the table in relation to just how good we are, i.e. not very good. Which is why Big Sam got the job.

 

Of course performances have been poor and things could be better. But wasn't that what people were saying when they were booing Sir Bobby for finishing 5th? Look who they got, Souness.

 

Which manager in their right mind would want to work here if we give Allardyce the chop after a handful of matches in charge? 

 

Managers like Moyes, Hughes et al at a push, maybe, most probably not. Are they any better than Sam? Remember it has taken them years to get their respective clubs performing at a level we currently regard our own shower of shite as being at least capable of achieving this year, well many did, hence the boos because we're not there yet. They would be no better.

 

Or how about Shearer?

 

Has King Kev been mentioned yet, always a good name in times of crisis.

 

Wake up people. Sam needs at least enough time to see him past a difficult patch which is what this is. Sacking him now could make it a whole lot worse, especially when you look at the list of maybe managers out there. Don't give me your Mourinhos, Cappellos etc.

 

Another popular name is Houllier. Strip away his 5 Cups at Liverpool and guess what LFC fans were pissing and moaning about onb their forums?

 

Playing for draws away from home

Poor performances

Boring football

Weird tactics and systems

Spunking money on the likes of Biscan (our own Smith perhaps?)

Losing to your Derbies.

Falling out with stars like Fowler

Playing one up front

No flair

 

They were glad to get rid.

 

No-one would last here in current circumstances.

 

If the point of no return approaches with Sam, then reconsider, until then at least give him a chance to get over a rough patch which all managers go through, regardless of who they are, their CV and whatever else.

 

Oh and those saying the least we should expect from Big Sam is some semblance of a system, tactics. etc.

 

Well the least Sam should expect from his highly paid, highly experienced, coached and somewhat talented players is to be able to play better than they have done, regardless of formations or tactics.

 

It isn't just his fault or responsibility.

 

Oh and one more thing, one thing that he should have been guaranteed is the support of fans. To chant what was chanted at home to Liverpool was a damn disgrace, not once did Souness or Roeder get anything like that level of shit. Call yourselves supporters you cretins who chanted etc. You showed your club up, you had the scousers pissing themselves laughing.

 

Don't air your dirty linen in public some have said over the complete media fabricated dressing room revolt crap, err same applies to fans. Leave your pissing and moaning for message boards, the cat, the lass if you're Stevie or whatever and get behind the fucking badge at SJP, you know, our so-called home. More like a cauldron of hate. Fuck me how is anyone meant to perform in that kind of environment. You may as well give the visitors a goal lead at SJP with all the bitterness and venom flowing from the stands.

 

My first year back after a season and so away as a regular, and I honestly can't be bothered to go anymore, I don't enjoy it.

 

Half the time I feel like wanting to punch people around me. Won't be long until fights are happening all over that's how bad it is, among ourselves as well.

 

Damn disgrace, more so than the actual results and performances, results that contrary to popular opinion, are par for the course with new managers.

[Keefaz]

Too late to read that. Next time, Coach, stick it on a bit earlier. Or at least serialise it.

[Guest paddy]

i forgot how bloody long your posts are!!!!  

[Guest Stubbs]

Exceptional post 

[Guest Knightrider]

Well, he's nowhere near the point of no return for me. Performances and results early doors is a fickle business, it's how people react and what changes thereafter that's important. If we can pick up some points in the next few days, quieten down the mob (fans and media cunts) and pick up as the festive period passes, we'll be alright. Next season is always going to be the acid test, regardless of who is in charge. Always is.

[Guest Knightrider]

One thing that has irked me and leads me to ask what the hell is going on, his just so how unlike a Big Sam team we are in every department. We are more like a Souness or Roeder side at the moment. I think perhaps bringing in all those new players all at the same time and of course injuries, hasn't worked. I also don't think dropping all these new ideas and methods on the players has worked either. And I will probably get shot down in flames here but I think Big Sam has tried to play more football while also working on those basics he mastered at Bolton, and the ballance just isn't right. He needs to ditch these things and get back to basics, regroup and start again. He needs to see the Xmas period as a new close season, he'll have the lads a lot with all the games so has time to work on the basics and get things going again. I hope anyway because despite his odd decisions and our performances, he is a good manager. You don't build Bolton up year on year if you're some idiot, not what he did and without any money at all.

 

Remember how hard they were to beat under him, how organised and tactically switched on they were. That's what he's capable of.

 

Needs time of course though...

 

What's the saying, time heals all?

[Guest Brewcastle]

The only time .............................................................................................

 

Good one. I'll consider to be a little bit patient with Sam. But I need to see some progress in the next games. So far it looks like  we're losing because of Sam's organizing and tactics, not because of a stinky team.

[gray]

im all for giving him time, i would just like some insight into his reasons for certain selections and substitutions.

[Shearer9]

Shouldn't be sacked unless we're in real danger of being relegated, or actually get relegated.

[Keefaz]

im all for giving him time, i would just like some insight into his reasons for certain selections and substitutions.

 

This is actually a decent point. No one's got a bloody clue what he's trying to do. At the minute it looks like he's just fucking around for the sake of it.

[Guest Knightrider]

What we are getting with Big Sam is the very rot all managers are capable of, only we are getting it all at once and at the very beginning too.

 

Bad subs

Bad tactics

Bad lineups

Bad everything almost

 

I honestly think though if he can come out of this alive, i.e. still in a job, we'll look back at these days differently.

 

Today we are saying: "Is this the same Big Sam of Bolton fame who was good with subs, systems, lineups and tactics"

 

Tomorrow we could be saying "this is the real Sam Allardyce"

 

Normally you can pinpoint just where a manager has no clue and it will stick, with Big Sam it can't because everything he is here now, is the complete opposite to what he was as Bolton manager and I bet none of us can pinpoint why. I can't. I am shocked at just how wrong he's been and how frequently.

 

When we can't work things out though, it's always best to let things work themselves out and that's what will happen if he gets the time, I believe and hope so anyway.

 

Like I said he's a good manager.

 

What I will say is perhaps being so comfortable and deep rooted into Bolton and everything with it, he's struggling to wake up to NUFC which is an entirely different animal. It's as if he's been pulling faces and the wind's changed, he needs to give himself a slap, pour cold water over his own head, pull himself together. Don't fight it Sam, you'll not win, stay with it and when you've got it, then you can crush it.

 

In short, drop the marker, tactics board, ice cubes, kick some arses, coach them, be a manager. You can't change everything or effect everything so quickly, not here.

 

 

[Parky]

What we are getting with Big Sam is the very rot all managers are capable of, only we are getting it all at once and at the very beginning too.

 

Bad subs

Bad tactics

Bad lineups

Bad everything almost

 

I honestly think though if he can come out of this alive, i.e. still in a job, we'll look back at these days differently.

 

Today we are saying: "Is this the same Big Sam of Bolton fame who was good with subs, systems, lineups and tactics"

 

Tomorrow we could be saying "this is the real Sam Allardyce"

 

Normally you can pinpoint just where a manager has no clue and it will stick, with Big Sam it can't because everything he is here now, is the complete opposite to what he was as Bolton manager and I bet none of us can pinpoint why. I can't. I am shocked at just how wrong he's been and how frequently.

 

When we can't work things out though, it's always best to let things work themselves out and that's what will happen if he gets the time, I believe and hope so anyway.

 

Like I said he's a good manager.

 

What I will say is perhaps being so comfortable and deep rooted into Bolton and everything with it, he's struggling to wake up to NUFC which is an entirely different animal. It's as if he's been pulling faces and the wind's changed, he needs to give himself a slap, pour cold water over his own head, pull himself together. Don't fight it Sam, you'll not win, stay with it and when you've got it, then you can crush it.

 

In short, drop the marker, tactics board, ice cubes, kick some arses, coach them, be a manager. You can't change everything or effect everything so quickly, not here.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes historic moments begin in nightmare situations...We are at the tipping point not just for SA but for the club itself IMO. We have to stick in there.

[brummie]

As an outsider, I'm clearly not talking with as much insight as you lot, but that first post oozes common sense.

[Keefaz]

As an outsider, I'm clearly not talking with as much insight as you lot, but that first post oozes common sense.

 

Perhaps you have valuable... outsight?

[Colos Short and Curlies]

As an outsider, I'm clearly not talking with as much insight as you lot, but that first post oozes common sense.

 

It wouldn't sell newspapers or get people calling into radio stations.

 

Hence on Thurs the usual hysteria ill raise its head again.

 

I emailed Paul New at the Chronicle on Monday asking if there was any chance of a few positive Toon stories and perspectives from fans to try and get a positive vibe going.

 

No reply from the man, good news wouldn't shift his rag

[Nobody]

As an outsider, I'm clearly not talking with as much insight as you lot, but that first post oozes common sense.

You actually red it? 

[toontownman]

Robson almost relegated ipswich in his first season in charge. people forget how manure played in fergies first year. even keegan nearly blew it here. grass is always greener. if people want instant success and fairytales stick to pressing ctrl alt del everytime you lose a match. rafa and jose both had good set ups to continue.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

im all for giving him time, i would just like some insight into his reasons for certain selections and substitutions.

I agree with this tbh.  At this point in time, after letting him bring in his own players, and with no-one else worthwhile to bring in, sacking makes no fucking logical sense whatsoever.

 

Let him have until the end of the season.  In all fairness we're not one of the 3 shittest teams in the league, we're not going to get relegated.  As someone (apologies I forgot who) said in another thread, we were spoiled in the Keegan and Robson days, and many fans have let that whet their appetite - and so now this is the expected norm (Champs League, or at least Europe).  Let's face it, we're an average club whose most likely acheivement is to get UEFA cup football, and that is going through a period of change.  

 

Ashley ISN'T Abramovich, he isn't going to splash the cash in one massive spree

Newcastle ISN'T London, we're going to have to prove ourselves to attract top players

Allardyce ISN'T a shit manager, obviously he is still trying to find a style to play with (yes his decisions are sometimes fucking mental), but if he really was shit he wouldn't have got this far in football management.

 

 

Can the fucking pessimists please put up or shut up.  I think the word I'm looking for to describe some of our fans is fucking greed.  It's time to wake up and smell the fucking coffee

 

NEWCASTLE ARE AN AVERAGE CLUB.

[Guest puretoon]

I think we'd all be happier if Sam played the right players in the right positions, subbbed right and played the right format using wingers. Why play Zoggy left back when Enriques sitting on the bench?? Sams said in the papers that Enriques perhaps not a Prem player, but how would he know after only playing the poor lad a couple of times? If thats the case, why buy him?

sams also contraditing himself too-no players has a right to play in this team (or words to that effect) so he chucks Harper out when he's done nowt wrong and sticks Given back in-why? is it because Given moaned? why keep playing Alan smith? yes, he may be good, but he aint got a right either?

 

No, I think we'd all give Sam a chance IF he corrected all above, but to say they'll play HIS way or not at all, whether it be right or wrong, is very stubburn and dogmatic. Not good.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

I think we'd all be happier if Sam played the right players in the right positions, subbbed right and played the right format using wingers. Why play Zoggy left back when Enriques sitting on the bench?? Sams said in the papers that Enriques perhaps not a Prem player, but how would he know after only playing the poor lad a couple of times? If thats the case, why buy him?

sams also contraditing himself too-no players has a right to play in this team (or words to that effect) so he chucks Harper out when he's done nowt wrong and sticks Given back in-why? is it because Given moaned? why keep playing Alan smith? yes, he may be good, but he aint got a right either?

 

No, I think we'd all give Sam a chance IF he corrected all above, but to say they'll play HIS way or not at all, whether it be right or wrong, is very stubburn and dogmatic. Not good.

another good post.

[Incognito]

Even if we lose tomorrow,it would be madness to even consider getting rid.Give the man time to cement his team here.This club has suffered enough to knee jerk reaction sackings.

[The College Dropout]

 

 

Redknapp and Hughes seem to be popular names all of a sudden, guess how many points they won in their first 15 league games in charge? 14.

 

 

When did they take over Pompey and Blackburn?

 

Hughes was appointed after the transfer window had closed. Blackburn were lying in the relegation zone when he took over.

 

Harry had about half of his original team at Pompey and took over around Novemberish with his team also in a relegation battle.

 

Sam had a summer to buy his own players, they didn't.

 

Has Hughes spent £25million in his whole time at Blackburn?

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Sometimes historic moments begin in nightmare situations...We are at the tipping point not just for SA but for the club itself IMO. We have to stick in there.

 

Exactly. It's about time NUFC did just that instead of kicking the first sign of trouble into touch, if we don't we could be losing the very man that just might one day end our chase for that elusive silverware, or the man to get us back up where Sir Bobby had us not so long ago, a victim of the boot into touch culture at the club for the crime of finishing 5th, Big Sam's crime? He picks a few teams people don't like, employs tactics people don't understand, buys players people don't rate, doesn't have us sitting in 1st place blah blah blah. Don't say performances and results people because these are fickle beasts for all managers. Do the research yourself and you'll find our haul of 18 points thus far is par for the course with new managers in their first 10-20 games. Some don't improve on that of course, some flit from one extreme to another, some do improve and make it lasting. One thing remains constant though; managers need time. 15 games, even 38 games isn't time enough at a club like Newcastle. If 15 games was the acid test Sir Bobby and Keegan wouldn't have made it.

 

Every time this club does well it does so by going against the grain, by taking a chance. In Keegan we plucked a man who hadn't manged in his life from a 7 year golfing holiday in Spain at the most critical period in our history. We were stark raving mad for even considering him. It worked though. Sir Bobby, past his sell by date, no-one wanted him, stuck in a cushy number at Barcelona. When our rivals were bringing in young, modern foreign managers like Ranieri and Houllier, we gave it to the grand old master of English football who hadn't managed in the country since Ipswich Town in the 80s. It worked though.

 

Further back, how about Harvey? He wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes today. Instead he stayed for years and years despite mediocrity while everyone else our size and even smaller were going places. He gave us our finest night though. He worked.

 

What about back in 1932 when we were the first club to appoint a player manager? Andy Cunningham, 34 years old. He took us to Wembley, beating Arsenal 2-1.

 

 

Conversely, every time we panic, we screw it up. Sir Bobby out, Souness in. Souness in, we struggle to get our number one man, we panic, in comes Roeder.

 

The easy answer would be to sack him, but that doesn't mean it's the logical answer or even the right one.

 

The way things are at the moment, everything is geared up for a manager to fail. A new billionaire owner, vicious fans, a team that despite some individual stars is average at best, poor in parts, and competition all around us that have settled teams, money and good managers who have had time to get things right.

 

If we say, appointed Capello what would such a decision do? It would ramp up the already unbelievable demands and expectations ten fold and because he's a bigger name, the harder he'll fall.

 

Moyes, Hughes et al, the more realistic candidates are good managers but would drown at Newcastle in the same way Allardyce is.

 

Time to throw him a line, eh?

 

The only other alternative I can think of that may just work, but only because it fits in with the madcap KK appointment scenario, is Alan Shearer. That's as big a risk though as giving Big Sam a second chance would be, much bigger in fact.

 

We have to stick with him until we reach the point of no return which is far far far away that really, this shouldn't and wouldn't even be an issue at any other club than here at Newcastle United.

 

If Ashley and Mort were to sack Sam, that would say a lot about their ability to run NUFC good and proper in my eyes, but in a negative way. We need strong people here who don't bow down to the fantastical and crazy fickleness of fans and the ant-Toon media which just loves to whip those idiots into a frenzy and put the boot into all things NUFC, often stemming from our own local media (the cunts).

 

 

If Big Sam is still here in May, the dark cloud that's been hanging over our club for a few years now will have gone and I for one will see that, hey, we really are heading in the right direction. That's what I want because that's the actual sign, not results and performances which as we've already established is a fickle beast that attacks all managers. Just look at Rafa Benitez's first uninspiring 15 games in charge of Liverpool, or better still, our own Kevin Keegan's first run of games.

[Dave]

Has Hughes spent £25million in his whole time at Blackburn?

 

£23.8m.

[Rich]

 

 

Redknapp and Hughes seem to be popular names all of a sudden, guess how many points they won in their first 15 league games in charge? 14.

 

 

When did they take over Pompey and Blackburn?

 

Hughes was appointed after the transfer window had closed. Blackburn were lying in the relegation zone when he took over.

 

Harry had about half of his original team at Pompey and took over around Novemberish with his team also in a relegation battle.

 

Sam had a summer to buy his own players, they didn't.

 

Has Hughes spent £25million in his whole time at Blackburn?

 

You're quick to forget just how fucking rotten this club was before Allardyce/Mort/Ashley, which is really disappointing. I'd bet that Allardyce has had to do a hell of a lot more in his brief time here than either Redknapp or Hughes at their respective clubs because of how far behind everything else we were when he took over.