Mort: I’m in charge

[fredbob]

I retorted by pointing out that we are probably the highest spenders outside the top 4, if not higher than some on the top 4 over a period of 10 years. Which might not be too far from the truth. Therefore by your definition we should be up there? Which we arent.

 

We were up there when we were spending the money though. If we stop spending money then we definitely wont be. Don't forget to add in wages when you talk about expenditure too. Arsenal get away with not spending as much on transfers as the other "big 4" because of Wenger, but they still have a much higher wage bill than us.

 

I also pointed out that unlike the other clubs we have had no stability at the club, no solid foundation in the form of a steady manager, i'm not talking about scouting, or youth set up, i'm literally talking about having the right man appionted to do a good job for a sustained period of time. "All the clubs you're talking aobut have solid foundations, and that solidarity starts with a consistent, good manager."

 

So will you be happy with the level of success shown by for example Charlton under Curbishley, or Bolton under Allardyce? They both had the stability and solid foundations you are talking about over the period where we didn't but were "spending ridiculous amounts" which didn't work at all; except for getting us into Europe/cup finals of course.

 

Also could you explain how you account for the most successful team in Europe? Hint: since 1990 - 5 league titles, 4 domestic cups, 3 european cups, 20 (twenty) managers.

 

Let me make this perfectly clear to you all, i havent once said i dont think the manager should be given money to spend, i agree that a good manager needs  money in order to improve their squad. However, this entire discussion is about Mort's recent quotes about the appproaching transfer window, i was attacking the generalised views that some people were making, implying that Mort had made this statement as though it were his business plans for the club. Which in my opinion is bollocks. And people who are arguing this point are idiots.

 

I argued that Mort, as well as SA think it is a bad idea spending stupid money in January as it bad business and often doesnt really lead to vast improvements. However, Mort has said that he will try to use this window to improve the future of the club by primarily investing in youth. Rather than gettin replacements for the ANC. I also said that i personally think that if the right player was needed and it was justified by allardyce, then Mort wouldnt hesitate to soend the money.

 

So basically i am in partial agreement with peoples views that money needs to be spent. BUT not in this transfer period bad time to spend money. Has no one learnt from the 17m spent on Owen. How much did we overpay, irrespective of his current situation. I'd say we overspent by £6-7m. £6-7m? Thats a huge amount of money, and it was the period that we signed the players that dictated the price. Makes no sense. Granted in that particular period of time, we desperately needed the player, but this period can we honestly say we need a player in the same vain that we needed Owen. I dont think so and i think Mort shares the same view.

 

The fundamental flaw with your views is that you arent taking into accoount the current situation of our club, we had a squad which was low on quality, and because of the lack of european football, or even a decent repuatation we cant attract the type of players we may need, i.e the "trophy signings" in order to make the vast improvements, instead we have to take it slowly, improve the genereal quality of the squad and the depth, make improvements in the league, achieve euro qualifications, then try and go the the higher calibre of player because we have means to do so.

 

To do this you need as much improvemnt on the squad as much as you can afford and your reputations will allow, if  you ask me, getting the likes of Geremi and Viduka and Barton, are all vast improvements on the squad we had. Yet they arent the type of players we need to break the top4. Can you see that? So it needs to start slow, becasue we have no other choice.

 

Mort and Allardyce are 100% correct in the way they are doing things.

 

That is all.

 

[ChezGiven]

Why are you using Owen as an example of the problems of buying in January and using that to conclude we shouldnt buy during this window? Sorry but 

 

We need to add a good attacking player during this window, it might be too difficult but we need to try.

[Thespence]

I may be missing the point as I only read ChezGiven post but we signed Owen in the summer not Jan

[UV]

The fundamental flaw with your views is that you arent taking into accoount the current situation of our club, we had a squad which was low on quality, and because of the lack of european football, or even a decent repuatation we cant attract the type of players we may need, i.e the "trophy signings" in order to make the vast improvements, instead we have to take it slowly, improve the genereal quality of the squad and the depth, make improvements in the league, achieve euro qualifications, then try and go the the higher calibre of player because we have means to do so.

 

To do this you need as much improvemnt on the squad as much as you can afford and your reputations will allow, if  you ask me, getting the likes of Geremi and Viduka and Barton, are all vast improvements on the squad we had. Yet they arent the type of players we need to break the top4. Can you see that? So it needs to start slow, becasue we have no other choice.

 

Mort and Allardyce are 100% correct in the way they are doing things.

 

That is all.

 

 

We had a squad which finished 7th with half a season of Souness which was poor enough to get him the sack, and half a season of Roeder. Last season we had MAJOR injury problems for a large part of it, so our performances or final position last season cannot seriously be taken as a true reflection of the quality of the squad we had. You say Geremi and Viduka and Barton are vast improvements over what we had, but we are currently doing worse than last season if you take into account the teams we have played so far. If the squad is vastly improved and Mort and Allardyce are doing everything right, what's going wrong on the pitch?

 

[Lazy]

I understand the point you're making completely fredbob.

[Mick]

 

how about answering me ?

 

You're moving the goalposts. 20m spent on 2 such players who justified their fees - and that Rangers right back looks a canny player - would almost certainly justify a higher finish. [but that particular judgement is up to the manager].

 

What would you say if we lost out on, for instance, Dean Ashton or David Bentley to someone like Man City or Everton because they were prepared to pay more than us ? Are such players not "trophy players" anymore, and as such you would prefer the club to buy lesser players to keep the books perfectly balanced ?

 

 

 

 

 

How about answering you, you didn't ask a question.

 

I'm not moving any goal posts, I'm pointing out that spending doesn't always work and you seem to think that spending is the way to judge how we're doing as a club.  League position doesn't seem to be something that you're too worried about as a measure of success but spending is, you also want to see that Allardyce knows the game and is on the right lines.  Did you not think he knew the game before you went on about why we should get him here?  I agree that judgements on players should be up to the manager, do you not think that is the case?  I know it hasn't always been the case but we've covered that so no point going over it again.

 

I wouldn't be bothered if we lost out on any player because somebody was prepared to pay more than us if the other team was paying more than the player was worth, I guess Liverpool fans feel that way about Michael Owen coming were.

 

I'm not bothered about balancing the books too much if we get value for money. 

[fredbob]

Why are you using Owen as an example of the problems of buying in January and using that to conclude we shouldnt buy during this window? Sorry but 

 

We need to add a good attacking player during this window, it might be too difficult but we need to try.

 

My bad, Owen was a bad example, dint really illustrate my point, my point is that generally speaking, January is a bad time to spend lots of money, you end up paying premium on average players and in the unlkely situation of actually signining a fair few people you have trouble intergrating them in a team which is in 'flow'. Allardyce has said manyy times about the perils of Jan period, and you'll find a lot of clubs dont really utilise the period. There two reasons why we shouldnt use the jan period to it's fullest potential.

 

To be fair, i've already said numerous times that i think that if Allardyce justifies the purchase of aplayer in the jan period then mort will put his hand in his pocket, so the point about the attacking player is unneccassary. i personally think we need a DM more than an AM, but thats my personal opinion.

 

I just personally belive that planning to spend a lot of money in the jan period is a bad idea.

[Thespence]

My bad, Owen was a bad example, dint really illustrate my point, my point is that generally speaking, January is a bad time to spend lots of money, you end up paying premium on average players and in the unlkely situation of actually signining a fair few people you have trouble intergrating them in a team which is in 'flow'. Allardyce has said manyy times about the perils of Jan period, and you'll find a lot of clubs dont really utilise the period. There two reasons why we shouldnt use the jan period to it's fullest potential.

 

Sam wants to sign players all year round. Before the transfer window came in players used to join clubs as late as March & none of the integration bollocks was mentioned.

[fredbob]

The fundamental flaw with your views is that you arent taking into accoount the current situation of our club, we had a squad which was low on quality, and because of the lack of european football, or even a decent repuatation we cant attract the type of players we may need, i.e the "trophy signings" in order to make the vast improvements, instead we have to take it slowly, improve the genereal quality of the squad and the depth, make improvements in the league, achieve euro qualifications, then try and go the the higher calibre of player because we have means to do so.

 

To do this you need as much improvemnt on the squad as much as you can afford and your reputations will allow, if  you ask me, getting the likes of Geremi and Viduka and Barton, are all vast improvements on the squad we had. Yet they arent the type of players we need to break the top4. Can you see that? So it needs to start slow, becasue we have no other choice.

 

Mort and Allardyce are 100% correct in the way they are doing things.

 

That is all.

 

 

We had a squad which finished 7th with half a season of Souness which was poor enough to get him the sack, and half a season of Roeder. Last season we had MAJOR injury problems for a large part of it, so our performances or final position last season cannot seriously be taken as a true reflection of the quality of the squad we had. You say Geremi and Viduka and Barton are vast improvements over what we had, but we are currently doing worse than last season if you take into account the teams we have played so far. If the squad is vastly improved and Mort and Allardyce are doing everything right, what's going wrong on the pitch?

 

 

This is a club that sacked a legend in the game for finishing 5th, if Souness had stayed god knows where we'd of fininshed Roeder had the honeymoon period and it proved to be the case the season after. We had crippling injury problems in all 3 seasons but still had good enough squad to complete, and we also have had no injury issues this season which i attribute to Allardyces excellent fitness techniques.  Partial bad lucj, partial bad coaching as Allardyce this season hs proven.

 

How are we doing worse than last season? You dont judge a season on the opposition you've played, you judge it on the points you've aquired and the posiiton you're in. Add to the fact that we're not even halfway through the season.

 

what are we arguing here? The perfomrance of the team, or the process in which we spend money? Becasue i'm arguing about the way we spend our oney, and if you ask me, the quality of the squad has improved lots between this season and last, and im sure it'll be the same the season after that. Why cant you see that?  

 

I cant understand why noone else (bar Lazy) understands that we as a club arent in a position to compete in the market with the likes of Man U and chelsea so we have to start slowly and build up, not throw money at the problem at the first available oppurtunity. We did that with Shepard, it dint work, we ended up £80m in debt with nothing to show for it, absolutley nothing.

 

To be fair to mort and Ashley he spent alot of money in the summer on a manager he didnt appoint, does that not suggest that he is willing to put the money in when it matters. It does to me.

 

Again, i wanna reiterate for the 12th time now, all im talking about is the January period. I dont think its a good time or idea to spend vast quantities of money, in a period where it is notoriously difficult to buy quality players. Why is that so hard to understand?

[fredbob]

My bad, Owen was a bad example, dint really illustrate my point, my point is that generally speaking, January is a bad time to spend lots of money, you end up paying premium on average players and in the unlkely situation of actually signining a fair few people you have trouble intergrating them in a team which is in 'flow'. Allardyce has said manyy times about the perils of Jan period, and you'll find a lot of clubs dont really utilise the period. There two reasons why we shouldnt use the jan period to it's fullest potential.

 

Sam wants to sign players all year round. Before the transfer window came in players used to join clubs as late as March & none of the integration bollocks was mentioned.

 

True but times have changed, I cant remeber any manager in the past worrying about intergrating players, trying to find them a place to stay, bank accounts, Mosques etc, but times have changed so much that these little touches have become vitally important.

 

If we were to go into the specifics of the intergrtion im talking about, i mean how about the effect of having 5-6 players being signed in one month on the team, more specifically the players whose position are under threat. How do they react? you'd like them to step up a gear but thats not always the case, and the perfomrnace of the team will suffer. If you are able to sign the same players over a period of 6 months, do you think that the effect will still be the same? I dont.

[Thespence]

My bad, Owen was a bad example, dint really illustrate my point, my point is that generally speaking, January is a bad time to spend lots of money, you end up paying premium on average players and in the unlkely situation of actually signining a fair few people you have trouble intergrating them in a team which is in 'flow'. Allardyce has said manyy times about the perils of Jan period, and you'll find a lot of clubs dont really utilise the period. There two reasons why we shouldnt use the jan period to it's fullest potential.

 

Sam wants to sign players all year round. Before the transfer window came in players used to join clubs as late as March & none of the integration bollocks was mentioned.

 

True but times have changed, I cant remeber any manager in the past worrying about intergrating players, trying to find them a place to stay, bank accounts, Mosques etc, but times have changed so much that these little touches have become vitally important.

 

If we were to go into the specifics of the intergrtion im talking about, i mean how about the effect of having 5-6 players being signed in one month on the team, more specifically the players whose position are under threat. How do they react? you'd like them to step up a gear but thats not always the case, and the perfomrnace of the team will suffer. If you are able to sign the same players over a period of 6 months, do you think that the effect will still be the same? I dont.

 

Steve Bruce while at Birmingham signed a load of players & ended up staying because of it. West Ham spent big last Jan & stayed up. I can find a stack of other clubs. There is never a wrong time to sign player that will improve your team. You have been sucked in managerial bullshit.

[fredbob]

My bad, Owen was a bad example, dint really illustrate my point, my point is that generally speaking, January is a bad time to spend lots of money, you end up paying premium on average players and in the unlkely situation of actually signining a fair few people you have trouble intergrating them in a team which is in 'flow'. Allardyce has said manyy times about the perils of Jan period, and you'll find a lot of clubs dont really utilise the period. There two reasons why we shouldnt use the jan period to it's fullest potential.

 

Sam wants to sign players all year round. Before the transfer window came in players used to join clubs as late as March & none of the integration bollocks was mentioned.

 

True but times have changed, I cant remeber any manager in the past worrying about intergrating players, trying to find them a place to stay, bank accounts, Mosques etc, but times have changed so much that these little touches have become vitally important.

 

If we were to go into the specifics of the intergrtion im talking about, i mean how about the effect of having 5-6 players being signed in one month on the team, more specifically the players whose position are under threat. How do they react? you'd like them to step up a gear but thats not always the case, and the perfomrnace of the team will suffer. If you are able to sign the same players over a period of 6 months, do you think that the effect will still be the same? I dont.

 

Steve Bruce while at Birmingham signed a load of players & ended up staying because of it. West Ham spent big last Jan & stayed up. I can find a stack of other clubs. There is never a wrong time to sign player that will improve your team. You have been sucked in managerial bullshit.

 

There are always exceptions to every rule.  I'd be an idiot to think otherwise, but you havent really given great examples. I mean, you are using examples which are completely different circumstances to ours, these were definitive relegations candidates, of course they had to spend, the players that were bourhgt were deemed essential. I've already said that nufc would be right to purchase an essential player. Both teams needed to rebuild the squad.

 

Now look at the bigger teams, the teams looking to progress, did they  utilise the jan period as prolifically as the teams you;ve mentioned. Nope. Why? becasue they see they major flaws inthe Jan period.

 

 

There is never a wrong time to sign player that will improve your team.

 

What are you telling me that i dont already know? you are arguing a competely different point to what i'm arguing the quote below is something ive said about 15times now.

 

i've already said numerous times that i think that if Allardyce justifies the purchase of aplayer in the jan period then mort will put his hand in his pocket

 

Im trying to argue using the January period as a period of squad rebuilding and spending a lot of money is a bad idea both business wise and footballing wise.

 

Hardly managerial bullshit, i mean, your looking at the first 11 on the pitch, i'm looking at the entire club down to tea lady.

 

[Howaythelads]

[sicsfingeredmong]

Placards should be strung up from the rafters and noises of disapproval should be raised, on the final home game of the season, in the event of Owen leaving in January under the proviso of board not supplying the necessary funds in order to find a ready-made replacement.

 

Shepherd would've been on the receiving end of this very treatment - despite rubberstamping Souness' 25m+ acquisition of England's no.1 Hitman in Owen, and one of Spain's brightest attacking talents in Luque.......... and Martins for Roeder - and the same rule should apply to Mort & Ashley. *two 10m+ acquisitions who both saved us from relegation in separate seasons.

 

It's all good and well for Mort to be media savy by laying out a grand plan off-the-pitch and it's been to his benefit. 'Foundation building' is the right idea and it's what supporters want to hear from a new regime who are trying to earn their stripes from the supporter base. Talk of 'direction' gives supporters hope. Combine this with Ashley seemingly winning over the hearts of some by rolling up to home games draped in a replica shirt.

 

But you know what it's still 'hot air' to me. The 'foundation building' Mort and Fredbob speak of - ie. The Arsenal Model - will take an even longer before any comparable benefits are reaped in our case when you consider that the well travelled Wenger arrived at Arsenal with his own network of personal contacts in place, in France/Africa and Sth America that is. In our case - ie. scouting networks, contacts etc - at present it's bare bones stuff and i don't think Allardyce has the same resources, from his own experience, in his locker as compared with Wenger and therefore our approach should be balanced ie. The Arsenal Youth Model combined with signing at least one marquee player a season according to departures & team needs.

 

To borrow a well worn cliche 'Rome wasn't built in a day' but remember Wenger in the infancy of his empire building, when restructuring the already mention foundations/club direction at Arsenal re-youth, was still backed by his board in signing the one marquee attacking midfielder - ie. Bergkamp - who made an immediate impact. Until he does likewise Mort's 'foundation building' talk will stay in the realms of 'hot air' imo.

 

In relation to how far Mort is prepared to back Allardyce, January remains a litmus test imo.

 

[Thespence]

Now look at the bigger teams, the teams looking to progress, did they  utilise the jan period as prolifically as the teams you;ve mentioned. Nope. Why? becasue they see they major flaws inthe Jan period.[

 

Sweet jesus!!!! Because the players they want are more than likely cup tied for the CL or the clubs they want to buy off are challanging for a league title/CL places or are still in the CL. I thought everyone new that

 

Your looking at the whole club from the first XI to the tea lady!!!! SUPERFAN ALERT

[NG32]

Until he does likewise Mort's 'foundation building' talk will stay in the realms of 'hot air' imo.

 

Jesus wept, the blokes only been in the job for a few months. 

 

I have been impressed with Mr Mort so far, very impressed. 

 

If we have money burning a hole in our pocket lets not just go and spunk it for the sake of spending it.

 

 

 

[johnnypd]

Placards should be strung up from the rafters and noises of disapproval should be raised, on the final home game of the season, in the event of Owen leaving in January under the proviso of board not supplying the necessary funds in order to find a ready-made replacement.

 

Shepherd would've been on the receiving end of this very treatment - despite rubberstamping Souness' 25m+ acquisition of England's no.1 Hitman in Owen, and one of Spain's brightest attacking talents in Luque.......... and Martins for Roeder - and the same rule should apply to Mort & Ashley. *two 10m+ acquisitions who both saved us from relegation in separate seasons.

 

It's all good and well for Mort to be media savy by laying out a grand plan off-the-pitch and it's been to his benefit. 'Foundation building' is the right idea and it's what supporters want to hear from a new regime who are trying to earn their stripes from the supporter base. Talk of 'direction' gives supporters hope. Combine this with Ashley seemingly winning over the hearts of some by rolling up to home games draped in a replica shirt.

 

But you know what it's still 'hot air' to me. The 'foundation building' Mort and Fredbob speak of - ie. The Arsenal Model - will take an even longer before any comparable benefits are reaped in our case when you consider that the well travelled Wenger arrived at Arsenal with his own network of personal contacts in place, in France/Africa and Sth America that is. In our case - ie. scouting networks, contacts etc - at present it's bare bones stuff and i don't think Allardyce has the same resources, from his own experience, in his locker as compared with Wenger and therefore our approach should be balanced ie. The Arsenal Youth Model combined with signing at least one marquee player a season according to departures & team needs.

 

To borrow a well worn cliche 'Rome wasn't built in a day' but remember Wenger in the infancy of his empire building, when restructuring the already mention foundations/club direction at Arsenal re-youth, was still backed by his board in signing the one marquee attacking midfielder - ie. Bergkamp - who made an immediate impact. Until he does likewise Mort's 'foundation building' talk will stay in the realms of 'hot air' imo.

 

In relation to how far Mort is prepared to back Allardyce, January remains a litmus test imo.

 

 

good post. bergkamp was bought by rioch tho, but wenger did get overmars who was considered one of the top wingers at the time in his first full close season/pre season summer. i wouldn't say jan is the litmus test, rather that next summer is. it's harder to acquire big names in january, and i'm not sure mort and ashley are totally convinced with allardyce (yet) so i reckon his budget in january will be limited.

[danswan]

Now look at the bigger teams, the teams looking to progress, did they  utilise the jan period as prolifically as the teams you;ve mentioned. Nope. Why? becasue they see they major flaws inthe Jan period.[

 

Sweet jesus!!!! Because the players they want are more than likely cup tied for the CL or the clubs they want to buy off are challanging for a league title/CL places or are still in the CL. I thought everyone new that

 

Your looking at the whole club from the first XI to the tea lady!!!! SUPERFAN ALERT

 

The tea lady's role can never be underestimated. Not at this level.

[Thespence]

The tea lady's role can never be underestimated. Not at this level.

 

I am sure Sam has her boiling only purified water.

 

[ChezGiven]

The tea lady's role can never be underestimated. Not at this level.

 

I am sure Sam has her boiling only purified water.

 

 

Doesnt boiling water do that anyway?

 

Its these sort of questions that make this forum what it is.

 

 

[Keefaz]

He's had her replaced by a proper hot beverage technician, and not a moment too soon. We've been in the bloody dark ages on the tea front.

[Lotus]

He's had her replaced by a proper hot beverage technician, and not a moment too soon. We've been in the bloody dark ages on the tea front.

Probably only Green Tea now because of the higher anti-oxidant level. Or maybe the new Tea lady is in fact Green.

[Thespence]

The tea lady's role can never be underestimated. Not at this level.

 

I am sure Sam has her boiling only purified water.

 

 

Doesnt boiling water do that anyway?

 

Its these sort of questions that make this forum what it is.

 

Yes. BUT Sam changed the bottled water the players drink & I could not find the name of it on google, so went with purified water.

[Dave]

De-ionised ftw.

[Keefaz]

De-Zionised ftw.

 

Racist!