4-3-3 will improve us

[Wullie]

i think our front 6 are far more suited for 4-4-2 than to 4-3-3. Owen and Martins both look 10 times the player in a 4-4-2, viduka is completely unsuited to 4-3-3, it doesn't suit milner as it renders his crossing irrelevant, n'zogbia has looked at his best in a 4-4-2 and emre and butt when they played together in central midfield looked like a well balanced duo. the only players who scream out for needing 4-3-3 are Smith, who is a very average player, and duff, who is years past his peak.

 

When you put it like that then I would have to agree. But when you put all those individual players together in the same team and ask them to play 4-4-2, I think you'll find they won't work as well as you'd think or that much better than they would in 4-3-3, if at all. And I'll tell you why - for us to get success in 4-4-2 those wingers and forwards need service and we lack someone in midfield to provide the service, i.e. a playmaker. Don't mention Emre, his passing is poor as is his selection of passing, he prefers to run with the ball anyway. He's actually more suited to a 4-3-3 formation. Barton doesn't look like a playmaker to me either, he's more of an action man type midfielder, box to box. Butt is a destroyer and Geremi isn't your man either. In short we don't have the players to keep the ball and feed those wingers and strikers.

 

Up front we don't quite have the forwards either who will put away those crosses and get into the box, Viduka hasn't the legs to get in there these days or the fitness to stay in the team, Owen doesn't have the fitness either and can easily be marked by a good defender. Keep him outside the box and he's pretty much a wasted shirt. As for Martins, he doesn't have the brains to make the right runs for crosses. We can't thread them through either because we don't have a player in midfield to do it while even on the flanks, our crossing is average to say the least and in Milner, we have the wing version of Owen really. Push him back and he's a wasted shirt as he lacks the pace to pin his marker back. This isn't helped by a lack of pace and attaking flair at right-back. At least on the left with Milner and N'Zogbia we can pin the full-back deeper into his own half as we did with Sagna, an electric attacking full-back. The others? Smith isn't a penalty box striker and Ameobi, well...

 

Sorry but I just don't see how 4-4-2 will work for us with the players we have. On paper and individually speaking it could as you've highlighted, but in practice, the results have been mixed. Indeed we've done better with 4-3-3 and that's because it masks our weaknesses and actually allows us to benefit from them. 4-3-3 squeezes the opposition and can force them deep where we can exploit them from set play or by ariel bombardment, we don't have to have good heading ability in there, the idea is to force the opposition into making mistakes which our extra numbers due to the 6 attacking players will capitalise on. You don't need a playmaker or wingers in 4-3-3 to get some joy from it either. Because the opposition sits deep, their own attack therefore gets cut off so they revert long or their passes fail to reach the forwards, meaning the ball is coming back to us without us having to win it, increasing our possession despite the team not being the best with the ball which we have enjoyed the majority of in quite a few of our games, even against Arsenal. In 4-4-2 you have to scrap for the ball first and when you win it keep it and look for openings, always open to the counter or being outplayed in the middle. In 4-3-3 you don't have to be great on the ball as the opposition will give you it back if you force them deep. You don't need to be great on the wings either because that ball being flung in doesn't have to be precise and you don't need pace either as you're penning the opposition in and picking them off.

 

That's what happened against Arsenal basically and Fulham away. It's not pretty but it works. Ideally we'll get width, creativity and mobility in Jan and beyond, which will make us stronger and able to play in a number of ways going forward. For now though 4-3-3 as it is better than 4-4-2 as it is, for me anyway.

Good post, it's clear we don't have the personal to pull a 4-4-2 off at the moment, not just that, with all the new players we have it's much easier to play as a unit playing 4-3-3 in comparison to a 4-4-2.

 

Is it?

[Guest Knightrider]

We don't though Wullie. 4-4-2 requires more good players in each position than 4-3-3 too and with 4-4-2, your strengths and weaknesses are there for all to see. In 4-3-3, one of our weaknesses becomes a strength. We are not the best on the ball so we pin teams back, cut off their attack from their midfield and defence and force them into giving us the ball back or forcing the ball into areas where we can win it back, i.e. just in front of the opposition back-four or inside their own half. We also lack pace to get behind defences (Martins doesn't have the brains to make the runs, not that we have the playmaker to thread them through) so we play in front of the opposition defence and pick them off, i.e. we bully them and try to ountnumber them in a classic swamp formation.

[Alberto2005]

i think our front 6 are far more suited for 4-4-2 than to 4-3-3. Owen and Martins both look 10 times the player in a 4-4-2, viduka is completely unsuited to 4-3-3, it doesn't suit milner as it renders his crossing irrelevant, n'zogbia has looked at his best in a 4-4-2 and emre and butt when they played together in central midfield looked like a well balanced duo. the only players who scream out for needing 4-3-3 are Smith, who is a very average player, and duff, who is years past his peak.

 

When you put it like that then I would have to agree. But when you put all those individual players together in the same team and ask them to play 4-4-2, I think you'll find they won't work as well as you'd think or that much better than they would in 4-3-3, if at all. And I'll tell you why - for us to get success in 4-4-2 those wingers and forwards need service and we lack someone in midfield to provide the service, i.e. a playmaker. Don't mention Emre, his passing is poor as is his selection of passing, he prefers to run with the ball anyway. He's actually more suited to a 4-3-3 formation. Barton doesn't look like a playmaker to me either, he's more of an action man type midfielder, box to box. Butt is a destroyer and Geremi isn't your man either. In short we don't have the players to keep the ball and feed those wingers and strikers.

 

Up front we don't quite have the forwards either who will put away those crosses and get into the box, Viduka hasn't the legs to get in there these days or the fitness to stay in the team, Owen doesn't have the fitness either and can easily be marked by a good defender. Keep him outside the box and he's pretty much a wasted shirt. As for Martins, he doesn't have the brains to make the right runs for crosses. We can't thread them through either because we don't have a player in midfield to do it while even on the flanks, our crossing is average to say the least and in Milner, we have the wing version of Owen really. Push him back and he's a wasted shirt as he lacks the pace to pin his marker back. This isn't helped by a lack of pace and attaking flair at right-back. At least on the left with Milner and N'Zogbia we can pin the full-back deeper into his own half as we did with Sagna, an electric attacking full-back. The others? Smith isn't a penalty box striker and Ameobi, well...

 

Sorry but I just don't see how 4-4-2 will work for us with the players we have. On paper and individually speaking it could as you've highlighted, but in practice, the results have been mixed. Indeed we've done better with 4-3-3 and that's because it masks our weaknesses and actually allows us to benefit from them. 4-3-3 squeezes the opposition and can force them deep where we can exploit them from set play or by ariel bombardment, we don't have to have good heading ability in there, the idea is to force the opposition into making mistakes which our extra numbers due to the 6 attacking players will capitalise on. You don't need a playmaker or wingers in 4-3-3 to get some joy from it either. Because the opposition sits deep, their own attack therefore gets cut off so they revert long or their passes fail to reach the forwards, meaning the ball is coming back to us without us having to win it, increasing our possession despite the team not being the best with the ball which we have enjoyed the majority of in quite a few of our games, even against Arsenal. In 4-4-2 you have to scrap for the ball first and when you win it keep it and look for openings, always open to the counter or being outplayed in the middle. In 4-3-3 you don't have to be great on the ball as the opposition will give you it back if you force them deep. You don't need to be great on the wings either because that ball being flung in doesn't have to be precise and you don't need pace either as you're penning the opposition in and picking them off.

 

That's what happened against Arsenal basically and Fulham away. It's not pretty but it works. Ideally we'll get width, creativity and mobility in Jan and beyond, which will make us stronger and able to play in a number of ways going forward. For now though 4-3-3 as it is better than 4-4-2 as it is, for me anyway.

Good post, it's clear we don't have the personal to pull a 4-4-2 off at the moment, not just that, with all the new players we have it's much easier to play as a unit playing 4-3-3 in comparison to a 4-4-2.

 

Is it?

I certainly think so, playing a 4-4-2 can leave you exposed if you don't keep possession of the ball well enough for sufficient periods of the game, our team doesn't have the players in order to do that, the fact that the team is full of new players means the team hasn't gelled yet which also makes it very difficult to play fluently because the players who are playing don't know how each other plays best. If you play a 4-3-3 however, you're playing with three central midfielders who are mainly defensive (Butt, Geremi) and even Barton isn't the most attacking of midfielders, then you've got your wingers who are playing two roles, join into a three when attacking and then drop back to a midfield 5 when we lose the ball, it makes us harder to break down.

[Wullie]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

[greydos]

I would like to make a point in general which applies as much to discussion of formations and players. People tend to globalise statistics and examples too much and i think it can cloud meaningful discussions. For (a non-footballing) example, if a doctor tells you that an elderly relative is going to live in pain for the next 3 months, and only has a 2% chance of recovery, most people would think 'she's a goner, there is no chance, it would be better to let her die peacefully by switching the machine off'. However, across the population, when everybody thinks the same thing, then not 1 elderly person will survive. However small statistics are, they are there because they DO happen.

 

I think this applies to footballers in the following way. We all tend to say 'blah blah has a bad touch, he can't do this, he's rubbish at that' but we forget to mention the exceptions to the rule. For every 'viduka is to slow to get in the box for crosses' see 'west ham at home first goal'. If you make 10 chances a game, it only takes 1 'exception' to get you a one nil win. If SA is able to strengthen the defence as everyone thinks he will, then the supposed weaknesses of players and the whole team is minimised. 

[Guest Knightrider]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

 

So how come we've done just as well with 4-3-3 as we have with 4-4-2? Individually certain players' games might benefit more from 4-4-2 but the team as a whole hasn't shown it can and will any more than 4-3-3 has or hasn't so I think "10 times better" is exaggerating things personally, sorry Johnny.

[Alberto2005]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

That's all well and good but when will Viduka and Owen be fit? We can't play that system without the players available and it's no good them playing once every 2 or 3 weeks because then you're swapping players all the time, how are they supposed to form a understanding? I agree that Butt and Emre was a good partnership for a period of last season but again when is Emre ever available for more than 3 consecutive games? More to the point, i find it extremely unlikely Allardyce dropping both Barton and Geremi. He failed to mention the defence, does this not affect the defence? It's a team of 11 not 6, like i've said on numerous occasions we have new players and the defenders we have are a lot better than we had last year but they haven't played with each other for more than 2 games, your asking for trouble playing a 4-4-2 at the moment, maybe with time we can change but for the short term we have to use 4-3-3.

[Guest Knightrider]

I would like to make a point in general which applies as much to discussion of formations and players. People tend to globalise statistics and examples too much and i think it can cloud meaningful discussions. For (a non-footballing) example, if a doctor tells you that an elderly relative is going to live in pain for the next 3 months, and only has a 2% chance of recovery, most people would think 'she's a goner, there is no chance, it would be better to let her die peacefully by switching the machine off'. However, across the population, when everybody thinks the same thing, then not 1 elderly person will survive. However small statistics are, they are there because they DO happen.

 

I think this applies to footballers in the following way. We all tend to say 'blah blah has a bad touch, he can't do this, he's rubbish at that' but we forget to mention the exceptions to the rule. For every 'viduka is to slow to get in the box for crosses' see 'west ham at home first goal'. If you make 10 chances a game, it only takes 1 'exception' to get you a one nil win. If SA is able to strengthen the defence as everyone thinks he will, then the supposed weaknesses of players and the whole team is minimised. 

 

For me it's about the pros and cons or strengths and weaknesses. 4-4-2 has more holes in it than 4-3-3 while the players are neither more suited to one or the other so I'll go with whatever is going to be used long term which will most probably be 4-3-3.

[Guest Knightrider]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

That's all well and good but when will Viduka and Owen be fit? We can't play that system without the players available and it's no good them playing once every 2 or 3 weeks because then you're swapping players all the time, how are they supposed to form a understanding? I agree that Butt and Emre was a good partnership for a period of last season but again when is Emre ever available for more than 3 consecutive games? More to the point, i find it extremely unlikely Allardyce dropping both Barton and Geremi. He failed to mention the defence, does this not affect the defence? It's a team of 11 not 6, like i've said on numerous occasions we have new players and the defenders we have are a lot better than we had last year but they haven't played with each other for more than 2 games, your asking for trouble playing a 4-4-2 at the moment, maybe with time we can change but for the short term we have to use 4-3-3.

 

Exactly, I think too many people are looking at this from an individual's perspective which is a common theme on here and why every week prior to a match people will jot down their ideal XIs which more often than not will contain the best 11 players in their given positions if fit. This is why there is a big uproar over N'Zogbia at left-back too.

 

He's not a left-back, Milner isn't left footed. I demand they be played in their proper positions or... or... I'll boo.

 

[Wullie]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

 

So how come we've done just as well with 4-3-3 as we have with 4-4-2? Individually certain players' games might benefit more from 4-4-2 but the team as a whole hasn't shown it can and will any more than 4-3-3 has or hasn't so I think "10 times better" is exaggerating things personally, sorry Johnny.

 

How have we? You're going to have to explain that one to me I'm afraid. Cos we got a point against Arsenal minus their best players?

 

Boro fucking beat them. They played 4-4-2 for the record.

[Guest Knightrider]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

 

So how come we've done just as well with 4-3-3 as we have with 4-4-2? Individually certain players' games might benefit more from 4-4-2 but the team as a whole hasn't shown it can and will any more than 4-3-3 has or hasn't so I think "10 times better" is exaggerating things personally, sorry Johnny.

 

How have we? You're going to have to explain that one to me I'm afraid. Cos we got a point against Arsenal minus their best players?

 

Boro fucking beat them. They played 4-4-2 for the record.

 

We've played 4-3-3 more than once.

 

 

[James]

433 wont work with us for as long as Charle N'Zogbia plays LB and Martins plays RWF.

[Wullie]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

 

So how come we've done just as well with 4-3-3 as we have with 4-4-2? Individually certain players' games might benefit more from 4-4-2 but the team as a whole hasn't shown it can and will any more than 4-3-3 has or hasn't so I think "10 times better" is exaggerating things personally, sorry Johnny.

 

How have we? You're going to have to explain that one to me I'm afraid. Cos we got a point against Arsenal minus their best players?

 

Boro fucking beat them. They played 4-4-2 for the record.

 

We've played 4-3-3 more than once.

 

Yep. Birmingham - could have gone either way, took us a penalty and a set piece to get anything. Fulham - shite. Derby - shite. Reading - shite. Blackburn - better than previous but still poor, we got well beaten. Boro - poor. Mackems - shite. Villa - you guessed it.

 

So we've got Arsenal and one half at Bolton, Birmingham too if you push your luck.

 

I count twelve goals from ten games, including two pens, about three flukes and an own goal. Not good enough.

[James]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

 

So how come we've done just as well with 4-3-3 as we have with 4-4-2? Individually certain players' games might benefit more from 4-4-2 but the team as a whole hasn't shown it can and will any more than 4-3-3 has or hasn't so I think "10 times better" is exaggerating things personally, sorry Johnny.

 

How have we? You're going to have to explain that one to me I'm afraid. Cos we got a point against Arsenal minus their best players?

 

Boro fucking beat them. They played 4-4-2 for the record.

 

We've played 4-3-3 more than once.

 

Yep. Birmingham - could have gone either way, took us a penalty and a set piece to get anything. Fulham - shite. Derby - shite. Reading - shite. Blackburn - better than previous but still poor We got well beaten. Boro - poor. Mackems - shite. Villa - you guessed it.

 

So we've got Arsenal and one half at Bolton, Birmingham too if you push your luck.

 

You are forgetting that the goals and better spells against Birmingham and Sunderland and Fulham occurred in 442 conditions.

[ElDiablo]

433 wont work with us for as long as Charle N'Zogbia plays LB and Martins plays RWF.

 

Agree. Might also add Milner at LWF. Plays like a traditional left winger.

[Wullie]

I think you two need to read johnnypd's post on the last page. All our players apart from a couple of distinctly under-performing ones suit 4-4-2.

 

So how come we've done just as well with 4-3-3 as we have with 4-4-2? Individually certain players' games might benefit more from 4-4-2 but the team as a whole hasn't shown it can and will any more than 4-3-3 has or hasn't so I think "10 times better" is exaggerating things personally, sorry Johnny.

 

How have we? You're going to have to explain that one to me I'm afraid. Cos we got a point against Arsenal minus their best players?

 

Boro fucking beat them. They played 4-4-2 for the record.

 

We've played 4-3-3 more than once.

 

Yep. Birmingham - could have gone either way, took us a penalty and a set piece to get anything. Fulham - shite. Derby - shite. Reading - shite. Blackburn - better than previous but still poor We got well beaten. Boro - poor. Mackems - shite. Villa - you guessed it.

 

So we've got Arsenal and one half at Bolton, Birmingham too if you push your luck.

 

You are forgetting that the goals and better spells against Birmingham and Sunderland and Fulham occurred in 442 conditions.

 

Good point actually, after the introduction of a certain *insert boring inaccurate cliches about him being shite and fat* Australian in two cases.

[Rich]

Have to agree with that, too. It's a really surreal coincidence that we've been at our best this season with Mark Viduka on the pitch... Which probably isn't saying much, but he does give us a real outlet that nobody else can - and he scores goals too. Needs to stay fit though, obviously.

 

Hope he's starting tomorrow, personally.

[James]

I'm still sceptical about starting Viduka.

 

Good player, good technique, good brain, but only seems to perform in the first half, or as a sub.

 

The tactic of bringing him on when others are tiring works in my opinion. Same for Emre.

[Gallowgate End]

i think our front 6 are far more suited for 4-4-2 than to 4-3-3. Owen and Martins both look 10 times the player in a 4-4-2, viduka is completely unsuited to 4-3-3, it doesn't suit milner as it renders his crossing irrelevant, n'zogbia has looked at his best in a 4-4-2 and emre and butt when they played together in central midfield looked like a well balanced duo. the only players who scream out for needing 4-3-3 are Smith, who is a very average player, and duff, who is years past his peak.

 

Could not agree more.

 

[johnnypd]

i think our front 6 are far more suited for 4-4-2 than to 4-3-3. Owen and Martins both look 10 times the player in a 4-4-2, viduka is completely unsuited to 4-3-3, it doesn't suit milner as it renders his crossing irrelevant, n'zogbia has looked at his best in a 4-4-2 and emre and butt when they played together in central midfield looked like a well balanced duo. the only players who scream out for needing 4-3-3 are Smith, who is a very average player, and duff, who is years past his peak.

 

When you put it like that then I would have to agree. But when you put all those individual players together in the same team and ask them to play 4-4-2, I think you'll find they won't work as well as you'd think or that much better than they would in 4-3-3, if at all. And I'll tell you why - for us to get success in 4-4-2 those wingers and forwards need service and we lack someone in midfield to provide the service, i.e. a playmaker. Don't mention Emre, his passing is poor as is his selection of passing, he prefers to run with the ball anyway. He's actually more suited to a 4-3-3 formation. Barton doesn't look like a playmaker to me either, he's more of an action man type midfielder, box to box. Butt is a destroyer and Geremi isn't your man either. In short we don't have the players to keep the ball and feed those wingers and strikers.

 

Up front we don't quite have the forwards either who will put away those crosses and get into the box, Viduka hasn't the legs to get in there these days or the fitness to stay in the team, Owen doesn't have the fitness either and can easily be marked by a good defender. Keep him outside the box and he's pretty much a wasted shirt. As for Martins, he doesn't have the brains to make the right runs for crosses. We can't thread them through either because we don't have a player in midfield to do it while even on the flanks, our crossing is average to say the least and in Milner, we have the wing version of Owen really. Push him back and he's a wasted shirt as he lacks the pace to pin his marker back. This isn't helped by a lack of pace and attaking flair at right-back. At least on the left with Milner and N'Zogbia we can pin the full-back deeper into his own half as we did with Sagna, an electric attacking full-back. The others? Smith isn't a penalty box striker and Ameobi, well...

 

Sorry but I just don't see how 4-4-2 will work for us with the players we have. On paper and individually speaking it could as you've highlighted, but in practice, the results have been mixed. Indeed we've done better with 4-3-3 and that's because it masks our weaknesses and actually allows us to benefit from them. 4-3-3 squeezes the opposition and can force them deep where we can exploit them from set play or by ariel bombardment, we don't have to have good heading ability in there, the idea is to force the opposition into making mistakes which our extra numbers due to the 6 attacking players will capitalise on. You don't need a playmaker or wingers in 4-3-3 to get some joy from it either. Because the opposition sits deep, their own attack therefore gets cut off so they revert long or their passes fail to reach the forwards, meaning the ball is coming back to us without us having to win it, increasing our possession despite the team not being the best with the ball which we have enjoyed the majority of in quite a few of our games, even against Arsenal. In 4-4-2 you have to scrap for the ball first and when you win it keep it and look for openings, always open to the counter or being outplayed in the middle. In 4-3-3 you don't have to be great on the ball as the opposition will give you it back if you force them deep. You don't need to be great on the wings either because that ball being flung in doesn't have to be precise and you don't need pace either as you're penning the opposition in and picking them off.

 

That's what happened against Arsenal basically and Fulham away. It's not pretty but it works. Ideally we'll get width, creativity and mobility in Jan and beyond, which will make us stronger and able to play in a number of ways going forward. For now though 4-3-3 as it is better than 4-4-2 as it is, for me anyway.

 

it looks like you're just listing some generic weaknesses in our team or benefits of a formation, applying the former to 4-4-2 and the latter to 4-3-3 arbitrarily.

 

for instance, lack of a playmaker means we cant play 4-4-2. there's no rule which says a 4-4-2 needs one, one of the most attacking teams in english football history had Vieira and Gilberto in the middle - two defensive minded players. in fact a playmaker as a defined role is far more common in a 4-3-3 where teams often employ one to play deep like xavi or pirlo or higher up the pitch like kaka or fabregas at times this season. they're alongside two others who can do more work for them, whereas in a 4-4-2 it's more of a luxury. regardless of whether formations "need" certain types of players, which i don't agree with as one formation can throw up a thousand different systems and strategies based on the players available, looking at how our players have performed together a Butt-Emre midfield has proven to be a successful and effective pairing. a lot of our best form in recent years has been with those two in the team, regardless of where emre played in inter he's been at his best in a 4-4-2 with a defensive player behind him. in contrast we don't seem to have a "natural" midfield 3, there's no one in there who will get into double figures and there's not much vision, we end up with three workers doing similar jobs and as a team we struggle to create.

 

another example, Viduka doesn't have the legs so can't play in a 4-4-2. well he'd need a lot more in the legs to play in a 4-3-3, if he was in the centre he'd have to battle for everything and he just doesn't have the mobility, strength or aerial presence for that. he'd have to play with his back to goal more often than not and he will just get eased off the ball against two big fast centre-halves. there's no question of him ever taking up one of the wider roles in a 4-3-3 either. in contrast in a 4-4-2 he would have more chance of dropping deep and linking midfield with attack, playing with his feet rather than chest/head and being able to look forward with a striker ahead of him rather than everyone being behind the play. likewise with Owen, i think he'd be fairly useless in a 4-3-3 for similar reasons and needs to be in and around the box rather than working like a carthorse outside the area. martins is another, looks far better playing centrally and able to make runs wide without over-burdening himself with linkup play, than starting in wide areas and trying to run infield which is inherently a much more difficult trajectory as you run into a more congested area where defenders get goalside.

 

as for milner and n'zogbia, they're both fairly rough players with flaws, but milner has looked better in a 4-4-2 (at villa and here with solano behind him) while n'zogbia has shown far more playing on the left-wing. milner's favourite move is the lofted cross from deep and its usually wasted in a 4-3-3 where there's only going to be one player in the box or even worse no-one as alan smith is busy tackling someone in the director's box. we have viduka and owen who are very good at attacking crosses in the box, as well as martins who can also pop up with headers, yet the first two aren't going to play much in a 4-3-3 while if the latter does he'd be out wide and not in goalscoring positions. the lack of attacking flair at right-back is probably more of an issue in a 4-3-3 as the full-back has more responsibility down the wing, what with the likes of milner drifting inside they have to get upfield more to give us width. Beye looks a good player but he doesnt seem like a natural going forward, he was a centre-half after all, and against fulham that was an issue.

 

we have had a little success with 4-3-3 this season but we've hardly looked like an electric attacking side. the performance against fulham was dreadful and as others have pointed out it wasnt until we changed the formation and brought on viduka that we scored. part of the reason i don't think we've been great in a 4-4-2 is probably cos Allardyce is unused to that formation and tries to play the same way regardless of the formation or players at his disposal, not because we lack the players for that system. there's been the occasional bright moment for instance against Everton when we (mostly) avoided putting square pegs in round holes and if we did that more i think we'd look better. it's not "on paper" or theoretically either, all the players i've listed have played well in a 4-4-2 and often together with one another, whereas we've proven nothing at all in 4-3-3. if we're thinking fulham and birmingham are a validation of that system then we're not setting our sights very high.

[Gallowgate End]

Viduka doesn't have the legs so can't play in a 4-4-2. well he'd need a lot more in the legs to play in a 4-3-3, if he was in the centre he'd have to battle for everything and he just doesn't have the mobility, strength or aerial presence for that. he'd have to play with his back to goal more often than not and he will just get eased off the ball against two big fast centre-halves. there's no question of him ever taking up one of the wider roles in a 4-3-3 either. in contrast in a 4-4-2 he would have more chance of dropping deep and linking midfield with attack, playing with his feet rather than chest/head and being able to look forward with a striker ahead of him rather than everyone being behind the play.

 

Totally agree its clear to see Sam's 4-3-3 does not get the best out of our forwards, Mark Viduka is far to isolated in this system and spends 95% of his time facing his own goal and even when he turns he has nothing infront of him for him to realese.

 

Nor does Sam's 4-3-3 system get the best out of Obafemi Martins playing him deep and wide does not utilize his pace never mind that watching this lad with his talent being used to consistently run back and help out when the oppositions Left Back gets forward is a absolute waste, giving Oba a role to stay static of forward runs and holding his deep wide role is absolutely unforgivable for me by Sam.

 

We need to start getting back to actually penetrating the opposition, getting behind them, having a go at there full backs getting Viduka and Martins both up top playing 12 yards off each other, Oba penetrating the space in behind and Mark linking the play wide or threw to Obafemi Martins getting him back to stretching sides again.

 

The importance of getting our best young attacking talent at the football club back up the pitch to Left Wing where he can provide for the firepower of Viduka and Martins is another issue that needs to happen.

 

"getting the best out of attacking players", "penetrating the opposition", "utilizing his strengths", "stretching the opposition" is what I want to hear from Sam before our game with Derby not "we need to focus on containing Derby", "it wasn't pretty but we dug in we need to continue this" I can't stand him but you don't have career highlight of 8th and winning nothing at the age of 53 for nothing.

 

If we're thinking fulham and birmingham are a validation of the 4-3-3 system then we're not setting our sights very high.

 

Completely agree.

 

[Cronky]

At the end of the day, we hired Big Sam because of his good track record at other clubs. He's a very individual thinker, and 4-3-3 has always been the main plank of his strategy. The way forward is for him to try and get this system working, and to replace the players who can't or won't adapt with those who will. When we hired the man, we bought into his methods as well.

 

A lot of the faith in 4-4-2 seems to rest on the idea that Zoggy at left wing and Martins at central striker would turn our performances round. Both players will have their moments, but overall they're not good enough to be thought of in those terms.

[Northern Monkey]

At the end of the day, we hired Big Sam because of his good track record at other clubs. He's a very individual thinker, and 4-3-3 has always been the main plank of his strategy. The way forward is for him to try and get this system working, and to replace the players who can't or won't adapt with those who will. When we hired the man, we bought into his methods as well.

 

A lot of the faith in 4-4-2 seems to rest on the idea that Zoggy at left wing and Martins at central striker would turn our performances round. Both players will have their moments, but overall they're not good enough to be thought of in those terms.

 

But Fat Head's alleged 433 is worse. HE's too inflexible, and incapable of changing things correctly.

 

We got him as manager because FFS was desperate. Now is the time to get an actually GOOD manager in, and THEN let the manager get the formation right.

 

 

[Howaythelads]

At the end of the day, we hired Big Sam because of his good track record at other clubs. He's a very individual thinker, and 4-3-3 has always been the main plank of his strategy. The way forward is for him to try and get this system working, and to replace the players who can't or won't adapt with those who will. When we hired the man, we bought into his methods as well.

 

A lot of the faith in 4-4-2 seems to rest on the idea that Zoggy at left wing and Martins at central striker would turn our performances round. Both players will have their moments, but overall they're not good enough to be thought of in those terms.

 

But Fat Head's alleged 433 is worse. HE's too inflexible, and incapable of changing things correctly.

 

We got him as manager because FFS was desperate. Now is the time to get an actually GOOD manager in, and THEN let the manager get the formation right.

 

 

 

Great the way your bitterness makes you come out with this rubbish. I didn't want Allardyce, never did, but he wasn't an appointment out of desperation at all.

[KaKa]

http://blog.gaffr.com/2008/03/20/the-4-3-3-formation/

 

Got to discussing our formation today with some pals and it was interesting. Basically, with Jonas coming aboard it is difficult to see how he would fit in to the version of the 4-3-3 we played last season; and in that case, what is the plan for the upcoming season? Surely Jonas' acquisition points to a 4-4-2?

 

Regarding our midfield, I think the likely scenario is that Jonas is played wide left, Butt and Barton (or Guthrie if Barton's in the can  ) are played in the centre, and someone like Larsson or perhaps Aimar  is played wide right.

 

We would then have Owen upfront with another striker who I don't think would be Martins as he wouldn't quite offer the ability to hold the ball up, which we would need. Viduka is unlikely to be the guy either, because he cannot be relied upon fitness wise. Therefore we will likely need a big striker with pace and power to complement Owen.

 

I'm beginning to think Martins might be allowed to leave in exchange for an athletic, pacy target man type.