Stoke City 0 - 0 Newcastle United - 06/01/08 - post match reaction from page 22

[ChrisJbarnes]

When's the replay?

 

I don't know, but but if Smith is starting in midfield I won't be watching it.

 

16th jan i think. said on bbc website

[KaKa]

Just what the f*** was Sam thinking, honestly? We were playing well in the first half, it was a matter of time before we scored.

 

"We're playing well lads. We've played some half-decent stuff on the floor, some nice passages of play, some nice quick passes. But our final ball isn't working. I know! Go straight to the final ball and see how that works."

 

 

f****** stupid. Couldn't believe it. Honest to God. Honestly, i thought Sam would learn from his mistakes, but with things like this - jsut what the f***. It was a CARBON COPY of Man City. First half good, on the floor, pacey, etc - second half, all long ball and utter s***. Madness. What's he thinking?

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the manager has that much say over the style of football/way the game pans out once the players cross the white line. It's not like it's just Allardyce who has overseen second halves like that after decent enough openings here recently. The players aren't good enough for one, the conditions were terrible, everything else was against us. I don't believe for a second that he's told our lot to go "more direct" at half-time.

 

If anything, it was plainly obvious that if we played some football then we might win it.

 

But how come there was such a vast, vast difference in the first half to the second? There was so few out-and-out long balls in the first half. In the second, every single f****** passage of play was a long ball. And is it just coincidence that it was exactly the same against Man City?

 

Viduka/Owen - they'll have been be pulling their hair out; neither are good in the air and neither have the pace to win flick-ons and suchlike.

 

Taylor/Faye/Given - not particularly accurate long passers (and Given's kicking is unbelieveably poor on the whole nowadays)

 

Butt/Smith/Geremi - all defensive midfielders, and atleast two of them are more often than not in the starting line-up; they don't have the attacking brain or the abililty in any way shape or form to run onto flick-ons or support, or just generally get in the game when the ball frequently bypasses the midfield on the whole

 

Duff/N'Zogbia/Milner - again, two of the three or often all of them play at once, and all three of them are good at running down the bylines; how were they ever going to get into the game

 

If it wasn't the manager who told them to play direct, it wasn't the players.

 

Argh, man, despite what some idiots will have you believe football isn't as simple as this: "right lads, now I know you all follow my instructions to the T at all times, and that you're all like robots with no ideas, imagination or free-thinking yourselves... so here's what I want you to do when you get out onto that field!" These are professional footballers who have played the game religiously and competitively for upwards of 20 years, for the most part, and so will usually be given a fair amount of freedom in how they approach games - especially when they're over the white line.

 

It's not just Allardyce where we've seen this happen, it's not just Newcastle who do this, surely you can see that? The reasons for the second half performance are quite probably vast and wondrous, but if you genuinely believe that we played that way because Sam Allardyce wanted us to, then... well I don't know, I won't be an arsehole about it.

 

I'll venture some counter-reasons though, while I can still be arsed to type: (1) the conditions weren't suited to playing it on the deck, we weren't getting much luck and the players started getting desperate and looking for the "Hollywood" ball (Nicky Butt in particular is guilty of this). (2) We do not have many players who are capable of keeping posession and Stoke were pressuring us all over the pitch, meaning the SAFEST route of action for most of our lot was to pump it long. (3) THE MAIN REASON: Nicky Butt and Alan Smith were NEVER f****** DROPPING DEEP AND ASKING FOR THE BALL, OR MAKING ANY RUNS (this isn't shouting at you btw, it's more my annoyance with them). There were f****** oodles of occasions in that game where I was yelling at one of them to do SOMETHING to open up some space so that Rozehnal, in particular, could play a simple 10-yard pass inside to get a move going, rather than being shown down the channel by their winger and into another long ball.

 

If your central midfielders aren't showing for the ball, or don't have the ability to create any space for themselves to receive the ball and your wingers are both marked, then what other alternative is there bar passing it along the back-line, which would get as much as a negative reaction as the long-ball stuff does?

 

I'm also aghast that people seem to think we've JUST STARTED to play direct football since Allardyce arrived, do people not remember f****** Sibierski-takes-on-allcomers at times last season? Or Alan Shearer towards the end of his career here battling centre-halves for 90 minutes as Titus Bramble and Andy O'Brien lobbed balls up towards his balding cranium!? Do people watch other teams who do EXACTLY THE SAME THING as us when they start to get desperate?

 

If I'm wrong and it comes out in the wash down the line that Sam Allardyce has been demanding we play this way from day one, then I'll openly apologise and be made to look an utter tit, I'll take it on the chin.

 

I'm not going to bullshit anybody, I've just sat stone-faced for the majority of that game, wondering why the f*** I even bother watching matches like this when we're involved ('cos they're all the f****** same). Allardyce cannot be totally absolved of blame, but neither can the players, but all I'm saying is that there's more goes into what happens on a football pitch than what a manager says for 5 minutes at half time.

 

Now, that feels better.

 

Wonderful post.

 

Following up what you have said about Smith and Butt not showing for the ball ... on the odd occassion when our central midfielders had the ball, I feel the strikers were also guilty of the exact same thing too. Neither Owen or Viduka showed enough for the ball either.

 

When all is said and done we basically don't have very good players. The sooner the guys in charge realise this the better.

 

 

[junkhead]

Was Taylor that good? Got credit for the clearance of the line but he was the one that created the calamity in the first place by falling over under a bit of pressure. Also, why does he have his hands out like that when he defends? Begging to have a handball and penalty given against him.

 

Abdoulaye Faye is an absolute monster of a defender. Never flustered, rusched or hurried. Calm and strong and he actually tries to play the ball out of the back.

 

Honestly, we weren't that bad today. Our problem is a HUGE one AND it affects the team massively. We have no actual footballing ability in the middle of the park. Lots of aggression but thats it. I actually respect Butt because he does try to do things although he does end up gettin git wrong a fair bit, but Smith just hides, which is criminal.

 

If Sam can just realise we need someone with a good passing range in the middle we would be a very different team. It doesn't even need to be someone who gets forward. Just someone who can pass the ball to the more attacking players. This is part of the reason we fade so badly in the second half. Smith and Butt become even worse as they tire and so they show for the ball even less and when they do get posession they lose it even more often.

 

 

 

blueyes.gif

calling A Oliver to ask for Allardyce's email, so that i can send him the bit in bold!

[Yorkie]

Yeah, as Mick, Parky, Kaka have said - if today's game didn't highlight the need for a quality centre-mid to be brought in, then i don't know what will.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

well lads, who do we want in the next round?

Peterborough at home.

[Guest Knightrider]

For me, tonight only highlighted how much the players are to blame for our recent failings as anybody else involved with the club, it was an embarrasment to watch at times.

 

Couldn't agree more. Like I said when the players can't even control the ball adequately, how the hell is the manager responsible for such a shit performance? Can't control a ball you won't be able to pass it. Furthermore if you have no mobility up front how the hell are we meant to put teams on the backfoot. Further on, without any creativity in the middle, how the hell are we meant to create chances? It's all fucked up, this team. Individually we have some decent players and the squad is strong in terms of numbers and experience but it lacks balance and options. We're a limited team and that's being reflected in performances. I thought the manager got pretty much everything spot on tonight and can be pleased with a clean sheet and a replay given how shite the players were, note I said players!!!

[Dr Venkman]

 

 

Like Yorkie said earlier, his options were severely limited with the selection today. I dread to think how Cacapa would have fared against their strikers on that pitch and it would have been a f****** massive ask for Edgar to come in and do the business after so long out. The other viable option would have been to stick Lua Lua right, Duff left and partner N'Zogbia with one of Butt or Smith in the middle of the park, but again it would have been a fair bit of a gamble.

 

For me, tonight only highlighted how much the players are to blame for our recent failings as anybody else involved with the club, it was an embarrasment to watch at times.

 

If Allardyce has anything to spend then it should be on two creative midfielders, it doesn't matter how good your forwards are if you can't use them.

 

indeed, shame is they're not THAT good are they?

[Rich]

 

 

Like Yorkie said earlier, his options were severely limited with the selection today. I dread to think how Cacapa would have fared against their strikers on that pitch and it would have been a f****** massive ask for Edgar to come in and do the business after so long out. The other viable option would have been to stick Lua Lua right, Duff left and partner N'Zogbia with one of Butt or Smith in the middle of the park, but again it would have been a fair bit of a gamble.

 

For me, tonight only highlighted how much the players are to blame for our recent failings as anybody else involved with the club, it was an embarrasment to watch at times.

 

If Allardyce has anything to spend then it should be on two creative midfielders, it doesn't matter how good your forwards are if you can't use them.

 

Baggio will love this, but he's being proven right from what he said in the summer about us requiring mobility and creativity in the centre of the park. We've been hamstrung by Barton being an arsehole and Emre being out of favour, but if one or both of them go the distance (which Barton probably won't) then it's essential that we replace them with either a) someone with technical ability who can pass or b) someone who can stretch other teams with some off the ball movement.

 

It's not all about pace, definitely not, but a player or two with some fucking technique would be wonderful.

[Keefaz]

They were the wrong way round. Butt was 4 then 3, Smith was 3 then 3.

 

Smith was no worse than Butt on the whole in my opinion, they were both as bad as each other. I'm not defending Smith's performance, i'm saying that both were absolutely terrible.

 

Butt was poor because he is a limited player trying to do things outside of his ability, but he had an impact on the match and tried to pull strings and drift into shooting positions. These are all things he wouldn't have to do (and fuck up) if he had a midfield partner capable of helping him out.

 

I don't think he's a super player, but in much the same way Jenas made Speed look woeful for long periods, Smith/Geremi is doing the same thing to Butt.

[Dokko]

Given 6

Roz 2

Taylor 7

Faye 8

Enrique 6

Duff 5

Butt 4

Smith 2

Zog 6

Viduka 4

Owen 3

 

[ChezGiven]

Just what the fuck was Sam thinking, honestly? We were playing well in the first half, it was a matter of time before we scored.

 

"We're playing well lads. We've played some half-decent stuff on the floor, some nice passages of play, some nice quick passes. But our final ball isn't working. I know! Go straight to the final ball and see how that works."

 

 

Fucking stupid. Couldn't believe it. Honest to God. Honestly, i thought Sam would learn from his mistakes, but with things like this - jsut what the fuck. It was a CARBON COPY of Man City. First half good, on the floor, pacey, etc - second half, all long ball and utter shit. Madness. What's he thinking?

 

I'm not entirely convinced that the manager has that much say over the style of football/way the game pans out once the players cross the white line. It's not like it's just Allardyce who has overseen second halves like that after decent enough openings here recently. The players aren't good enough for one, the conditions were terrible, everything else was against us. I don't believe for a second that he's told our lot to go "more direct" at half-time.

 

If anything, it was plainly obvious that if we played some football then we might win it.

 

But how come there was such a vast, vast difference in the first half to the second? There was so few out-and-out long balls in the first half. In the second, every single fucking passage of play was a long ball. And is it just coincidence that it was exactly the same against Man City?

 

Viduka/Owen - they'll have been be pulling their hair out; neither are good in the air and neither have the pace to win flick-ons and suchlike.

 

Taylor/Faye/Given - not particularly accurate long passers (and Given's kicking is unbelieveably poor on the whole nowadays)

 

Butt/Smith/Geremi - all defensive midfielders, and atleast two of them are more often than not in the starting line-up; they don't have the attacking brain or the abililty in any way shape or form to run onto flick-ons or support, or just generally get in the game when the ball frequently bypasses the midfield on the whole

 

Duff/N'Zogbia/Milner - again, two of the three or often all of them play at once, and all three of them are good at running down the bylines; how were they ever going to get into the game

 

If it wasn't the manager who told them to play direct, it wasn't the players.

 

Argh, man, despite what some idiots will have you believe football isn't as simple as this: "right lads, now I know you all follow my instructions to the T at all times, and that you're all like robots with no ideas, imagination or free-thinking yourselves... so here's what I want you to do when you get out onto that field!" These are professional footballers who have played the game religiously and competitively for upwards of 20 years, for the most part, and so will usually be given a fair amount of freedom in how they approach games - especially when they're over the white line.

 

It's not just Allardyce where we've seen this happen, it's not just Newcastle who do this, surely you can see that? The reasons for the second half performance are quite probably vast and wondrous, but if you genuinely believe that we played that way because Sam Allardyce wanted us to, then... well I don't know, I won't be an arsehole about it.

 

I'll venture some counter-reasons though, while I can still be arsed to type: (1) the conditions weren't suited to playing it on the deck, we weren't getting much luck and the players started getting desperate and looking for the "Hollywood" ball (Nicky Butt in particular is guilty of this). (2) We do not have many players who are capable of keeping posession and Stoke were pressuring us all over the pitch, meaning the SAFEST route of action for most of our lot was to pump it long. (3) THE MAIN REASON: Nicky Butt and Alan Smith were NEVER FUCKING DROPPING DEEP AND ASKING FOR THE BALL, OR MAKING ANY RUNS (this isn't shouting at you btw, it's more my annoyance with them). There were fucking oodles of occasions in that game where I was yelling at one of them to do SOMETHING to open up some space so that Rozehnal, in particular, could play a simple 10-yard pass inside to get a move going, rather than being shown down the channel by their winger and into another long ball.

 

If your central midfielders aren't showing for the ball, or don't have the ability to create any space for themselves to receive the ball and your wingers are both marked, then what other alternative is there bar passing it along the back-line, which would get as much as a negative reaction as the long-ball stuff does?

 

I'm also aghast that people seem to think we've JUST STARTED to play direct football since Allardyce arrived, do people not remember fucking Sibierski-takes-on-allcomers at times last season? Or Alan Shearer towards the end of his career here battling centre-halves for 90 minutes as Titus Bramble and Andy O'Brien lobbed balls up towards his balding cranium!? Do people watch other teams who do EXACTLY THE SAME THING as us when they start to get desperate?

 

If I'm wrong and it comes out in the wash down the line that Sam Allardyce has been demanding we play this way from day one, then I'll openly apologise and be made to look an utter tit, I'll take it on the chin.

 

I'm not going to bullshit anybody, I've just sat stone-faced for the majority of that game, wondering why the fuck I even bother watching matches like this when we're involved ('cos they're all the fucking same). Allardyce cannot be totally absolved of blame, but neither can the players, but all I'm saying is that there's more goes into what happens on a football pitch than what a manager says for 5 minutes at half time.

 

Now, that feels better.

 

Nice post, nice ranting, great effort Rich.

[KaKa]

Was Taylor that good? Got credit for the clearance of the line but he was the one that created the calamity in the first place by falling over under a bit of pressure. Also, why does he have his hands out like that when he defends? Begging to have a handball and penalty given against him.

 

Abdoulaye Faye is an absolute monster of a defender. Never flustered, rusched or hurried. Calm and strong and he actually tries to play the ball out of the back.

 

Honestly, we weren't that bad today. Our problem is a HUGE one AND it affects the team massively. We have no actual footballing ability in the middle of the park. Lots of aggression but thats it. I actually respect Butt because he does try to do things although he does end up gettin git wrong a fair bit, but Smith just hides, which is criminal.

 

If Sam can just realise we need someone with a good passing range in the middle we would be a very different team. It doesn't even need to be someone who gets forward. Just someone who can pass the ball to the more attacking players. This is part of the reason we fade so badly in the second half. Smith and Butt become even worse as they tire and so they show for the ball even less and when they do get posession they lose it even more often.

 

 

 

blueyes.gif

 

 

When I said 'small problem' I said that only because the introduction of just one half decent passer in the middle of the park would make such a huge difference in my opinion.

 

But yeah, it is a big problem.

[Taylor Swift]

They were the wrong way round. Butt was 4 then 3, Smith was 3 then 3.

 

Smith was no worse than Butt on the whole in my opinion, they were both as bad as each other. I'm not defending Smith's performance, i'm saying that both were absolutely terrible.

 

Butt was poor because he is a limited player trying to do things outside of his ability, but he had an impact on the match and tried to pull strings and drift into shooting positions. These are all things he wouldn't have to do (and fuck up) if he had a midfield partner capable of helping him out.

 

I don't think he's a super player, but in much the same way Jenas made Speed look woeful for long periods, Smith/Geremi is doing the same thing to Butt.

 

 

Butt's playing the role of the DM and the AM. He clearly does well in the first role whilst the less said about the second the better. It's not his fault that he's forced to dictate the pace of the game, forced to make through balls and shift the play from one side to another. It's not his fault Alan Smith is so fucking shite.

[toptoon]

I know its all about opinion on here but how people rated duff a 7 i will never know. Zog was just about a 7 imo, he beat people, worked his arse off won free kicks and had a few shots. Duff didn't create anything or have a shot that i can remember. can someone explain this?

 

[ChezGiven]

For me, tonight only highlighted how much the players are to blame for our recent failings as anybody else involved with the club, it was an embarrasment to watch at times.

 

Couldn't agree more. Like I said when the players can't even control the ball adequately, how the hell is the manager responsible for such a shit performance? Can't control a ball you won't be able to pass it. Furthermore if you have no mobility up front how the hell are we meant to put teams on the backfoot. Further on, without any creativity in the middle, how the hell are we meant to create chances? It's all fucked up, this team. Individually we have some decent players and the squad is strong in terms of numbers and experience but it lacks balance and options. We're a limited team and that's being reflected in performances. I thought the manager got pretty much everything spot on tonight and can be pleased with a clean sheet and a replay given how shite the players were, note I said players!!!

 

Been saying it for months. We need to invest.

[Yorkie]

Don't think i have either the brain nor the typing ability to reply to Rich, there. I still think Allardyce will have told them to play more direct. OK, he won't have instructed us to play every single ball long, like we did do, but i can imagine he will have conributed to the tactic somehow. If the centre-mids weren't dropping deep, why wasn't Allardyce telling them to?

[Yorkie]

They were the wrong way round. Butt was 4 then 3, Smith was 3 then 3.

 

Smith was no worse than Butt on the whole in my opinion, they were both as bad as each other. I'm not defending Smith's performance, i'm saying that both were absolutely terrible.

 

Butt was poor because he is a limited player trying to do things outside of his ability, but he had an impact on the match and tried to pull strings and drift into shooting positions. These are all things he wouldn't have to do (and fuck up) if he had a midfield partner capable of helping him out.

 

I don't think he's a super player, but in much the same way Jenas made Speed look woeful for long periods, Smith/Geremi is doing the same thing to Butt.

 

Meh, i agree.

 

My other ratings were spot on though!

[Guest Knightrider]

For me, tonight only highlighted how much the players are to blame for our recent failings as anybody else involved with the club, it was an embarrasment to watch at times.

 

Couldn't agree more. Like I said when the players can't even control the ball adequately, how the hell is the manager responsible for such a shit performance? Can't control a ball you won't be able to pass it. Furthermore if you have no mobility up front how the hell are we meant to put teams on the backfoot. Further on, without any creativity in the middle, how the hell are we meant to create chances? It's all fucked up, this team. Individually we have some decent players and the squad is strong in terms of numbers and experience but it lacks balance and options. We're a limited team and that's being reflected in performances. I thought the manager got pretty much everything spot on tonight and can be pleased with a clean sheet and a replay given how shite the players were, note I said players!!!

 

Been saying it for months. We need to invest.

 

No time like the present...

[Rich]

They were the wrong way round. Butt was 4 then 3, Smith was 3 then 3.

 

Smith was no worse than Butt on the whole in my opinion, they were both as bad as each other. I'm not defending Smith's performance, i'm saying that both were absolutely terrible.

 

Butt was poor because he is a limited player trying to do things outside of his ability, but he had an impact on the match and tried to pull strings and drift into shooting positions. These are all things he wouldn't have to do (and fuck up) if he had a midfield partner capable of helping him out.

 

I don't think he's a super player, but in much the same way Jenas made Speed look woeful for long periods, Smith/Geremi is doing the same thing to Butt.

 

 

Butt's playing the role of the DM and the AM. He clearly does well in the first role whilst the less said about the second the better. It's not his fault that he's forced to dictate the pace of the game, forced to make through balls and shift the play from one side to another. It's not his fault Alan Smith is so fucking shite.

 

Thumbs up from me here too. I'm annoyed with Butt's lack of ability/nouse for a bloke of his reputation/age more than anything, but he's working his ginger bollocks off trying to do everything he can for the side, which is more than we can say for certian others.

[Parky]

For me, tonight only highlighted how much the players are to blame for our recent failings as anybody else involved with the club, it was an embarrasment to watch at times.

 

Couldn't agree more. Like I said when the players can't even control the ball adequately, how the hell is the manager responsible for such a shit performance? Can't control a ball you won't be able to pass it. Furthermore if you have no mobility up front how the hell are we meant to put teams on the backfoot. Further on, without any creativity in the middle, how the hell are we meant to create chances? It's all fucked up, this team. Individually we have some decent players and the squad is strong in terms of numbers and experience but it lacks balance and options. We're a limited team and that's being reflected in performances. I thought the manager got pretty much everything spot on tonight and can be pleased with a clean sheet and a replay given how shite the players were, note I said players!!!

 

Been saying it for months. We need to invest.

 

You nicked it from me.

[Mick]

 

Baggio will love this, but he's being proven right from what he said in the summer about us requiring mobility and creativity in the centre of the park. We've been hamstrung by Barton being an arsehole and Emre being out of favour, but if one or both of them go the distance (which Barton probably won't) then it's essential that we replace them with either a) someone with technical ability who can pass or b) someone who can stretch other teams with some off the ball movement.

 

It's not all about pace, definitely not, but a player or two with some f****** technique would be wonderful.

 

I was also saying we needed some creativity and I said Barton wouldn't bring it, he's more like a Bowyer than creative, Emre isn't going to do it either.

 

Allardyce has to take some of the blame because he brought both Smith and Barton in with good money which could have been spent better.  I'll give him a bit of slack because he had to bring in numbers and he's done that but he's now got to go a step further and give the team some flair, I hate to say this but door openers (spit).

[Guest Petay]

Positives:  Defence looked quite solid, Lua Lua and Carrol look ok and got 'blooded' and Owen survived a full game.

Negatives:  The central midfield created nothing at all Smith was woeful in particular Butt did ok as it wasn't really his job to create.  Smith was captain and stayed on the field the entire game this really worries me he shouldn't be in the team let alone captaining it.  Strikers didn't look like scoring against a fizzy pop team.

All in all I'm depressed after what was the second worst game I've seen in a long time, I had the misfortune to be at the Wigan game.

[Rich]

Don't think i have either the brain nor the typing ability to reply to Rich, there. I still think Allardyce will have told them to play more direct. OK, he won't have instructed us to play every single ball long, like we did do, but i can imagine he will have conributed to the tactic somehow. If the centre-mids weren't dropping deep, why wasn't Allardyce telling them to?

 

A good question, no doubt, but we can't be sure that he wasn't.

 

I know he's losing a lot of us at the minute because of numerous reasons, but surely a bloke with his reputation and standing as a player and manager in this game could see the same as what we see?

 

It's stuff like this that fucks me off more than anything, not having anything truly concrete to finger the blame on people so that we can FINALLY zap the right man. We need something more set in stone than the constant scapegoats. We've gone through umpteen players, numerous managers and we got shot of the previous owners... how much more can we realistically change?

[Rich]

 

Baggio will love this, but he's being proven right from what he said in the summer about us requiring mobility and creativity in the centre of the park. We've been hamstrung by Barton being an arsehole and Emre being out of favour, but if one or both of them go the distance (which Barton probably won't) then it's essential that we replace them with either a) someone with technical ability who can pass or b) someone who can stretch other teams with some off the ball movement.

 

It's not all about pace, definitely not, but a player or two with some f****** technique would be wonderful.

 

I was also saying we needed some creativity and I said Barton wouldn't bring it, he's more like a Bowyer than creative, Emre isn't going to do it either.

 

Allardyce has to take some of the blame because he brought both Smith and Barton in with good money which could have been spent better.  I'll give him a bit of slack because he had to bring in numbers and he's done that but he's now got to go a step further and give the team some flair, I hate to say this but door openers (spit).

 

We still need to replace Nobby Solano first and foremost.

[Mick]

 

 

Butt's playing the role of the DM and the AM. He clearly does well in the first role whilst the less said about the second the better. It's not his fault that he's forced to dictate the pace of the game, forced to make through balls and shift the play from one side to another. It's not his fault Alan Smith is so f****** s****.

 

I can't see the point in having a defensive midfielder if he can't find his own team with the ball and Butt can't do that, he gains possession sometimes but gives the ball straight back to the opposition.