Kevin Keegan

[oldtype]

For what it’s worth, if it’s true that there are less good female commentators than male ones, that’s probably because they’ve been systematically excluded from the profession for nearly a century and haven’t had the chance to develop.

 

If you want to fix that in the long run you do have to start force-feeding women opportunities in the short term, to some extent. It may seem like tokenism at times but there’s not another way around it.

[Hanshithispantz]

Wht would you need therapy for prefering mens football to womens? 

 

[Wullie]

5 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

There's been a huge leap from one person saying

 

"we don't need women pundits and commentators in the men's game, it's a solution to a problem that doesn't exist"

 

to the next person saying "nothing wrong with a preference over women commentators if it's based on their commentating" 

 

to the next person saying "do you have a preference for men's football?"

 

From "women shouldn't speak" to "men's football is at a higher level to women's and it's okay to have a preference" as if the problem was with the last point not the first.

 

I certainly agree with this FWIW, and I don't agree with the initial point in bold, for clarity. Nobody's mentioned Kelly Cates who I think has been the best football anchor on British television for years.

[Wullie]

3 minutes ago, Thomson Mouse said:

 

That is bizarre.

 

Why does it matter if he prefers men’s or women’s football?

 

It’s about the credibility of one commenting on the other. That’s all.

 

Commentating, not commenting. Big difference which maybe I didn't make clear enough. My point was specifically about the main commentary gig where I think tone of voice plays a part and many people are more likely to have a preference for one sex over the other.

[gbandit]

6 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

Since you've accused me of being "snide", do you prefer watching men's or women's football? Venkman claims he has no preference whatsoever, would need therapy if he did, and that my assuming that people on this Newcastle United forum have a preference for one over the other is "bizarre".

 

I certainly think this thread has gone bizarre.

I thought it was snide to say “I’ll leave it up to other people to decide…” when you clearly were inferring that you didn’t believe him yourself. You could have said “I find that hard to believe in all honesty, I’m not sure if that’s just me…” 

 

Venkman was making the point that he doesn’t have a preference in principle about men’s or women’s football.

 

Personally, I have a massive learnt preference for men’s football based on a lifetime of supporting the men’s NUFC team so all my footballing references are from the men’s game. In principle I could enjoy the women’s game just as much as the men’s but it’s unlikely I ever will in practice because of how much time I’ve invested in the men’s game amongst other things 

[Dr Venkman]

11 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

Since you've accused me of being "snide", do you prefer watching men's or women's football? Venkman claims he has no preference whatsoever, would need therapy if he did, and that my assuming that people on this Newcastle United forum have a preference for one over the other is "bizarre".

 

I certainly think this thread has gone bizarre.

I’ve stated I have no preference whatsoever based on sex. I must have typed that phrase about 10 times now.

 

More misrepresentation of what I said here, it’s really disappointing. If I became aware that I was favouring anyone based on sex alone I’d try to address it.

[Thomson Mouse]

Reflecting on this it very much for me a case of:

 

I’m mid-40’s, my Dad is late 70’s and would probably say the same thing as Keegan to which my reply would be ‘for fucks sake Dad…’

 

Then a conversation around it.

 

My problem is the amount of people who then followed up with the misogynistic shite who aren’t older.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, Dr Venkman said:

I’ve stated I have no preference whatsoever based on sex. I must have typed that phrase about 10 times now.

 

More misrepresentation of what I said here, it’s really disappointing. If I became aware that I was favouring anyone based on sex alone I’d try to address it.

 

Is preferring the men's game due to the speed, athleticism and dynamic play, a preference based on sex?

[Dr Venkman]

3 minutes ago, gbandit said:

Personally, I have a massive learnt preference for men’s football based on a lifetime of supporting the men’s NUFC team so all my footballing references are from the men’s game. In principle I could enjoy the women’s game just as much as the men’s but it’s unlikely I ever will in practice because of how much time I’ve invested in the men’s game amongst other things 

Absolutely, and what you said before about it being a social construct was spot on. This stuff is so pervasive that people don’t see it for what it is, fish don’t realise they’re swimming in water.
 

As @Kid Icarus summed up nicely before though this line of debate started with someone simply stating they had a clear preference for football punditry based on sex alone, and that’s what I’ve been commenting on. Most of the last few pages has been an attempt to deflect from that viewpoint being overly misogynist. I’ll leave it up to others to decide why some might want to do that. 

[Kid Icarus]

15 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Wht would you need therapy for prefering mens football to womens? 

 

 

This must be infuriating for Venkman like. He's said plenty of times that he doesn't prefer it based on gender alone, which is a pretty crucial hinge point of the argument he's making like.

[TRon]

9 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

Commentating, not commenting. Big difference which maybe I didn't make clear enough. My point was specifically about the main commentary gig where I think tone of voice plays a part and many people are more likely to have a preference for one sex over the other.

 

I said the same thing in my first post on here. I don't like listening to women commentators, the ones I've heard don't tend to convey the atmosphere of the game that well. I don't know if it's tone or what, but it doesn't work for me.

 

But when it comes to punditry, there's been some very good ones, at least compared to some of the male doylems we've had to hear talking absolute shit down the years.

[Dr Venkman]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Is preferring the men's game due to the speed, athleticism and dynamic play, a preference based on sex?

I don’t consider myself an expert so I wouldn’t want to give a definitive answer but based on the parameters of the discussion so far I think if you’re not prejudiced purely based on sex that’s a more legitimate starting point.

[Dr Venkman]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

This must be infuriating for Venkman like. He's said plenty of times that he doesn't prefer it based on gender alone, which is a pretty crucial hinge point of the argument he's making like.

Infuriating and very telling. The amount of men desperate to ‘catch you out’ on such a basic principle of what I see as human decency is depressing.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

I said the same thing in my first post on here. I don't like listening to women commentators, the ones I've heard don't tend to convey the atmosphere of the game that well. I don't know if it's tone or what, but it doesn't work for me.

 

But when it comes to punditry, there's been some very good ones, at least compared to some of the male doylems we've had to hear talking absolute shit down the years.

 

So what if the way you feel about the commentators extends to the pundits as well for some guys?

 

Mabe they don't find it as convincing or relatable and so would not prefer it.

 

You guys genuinely think that then means they have a hatred and prejudice against women?

 

That's really fascinating.

[Hanshithispantz]

3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

This must be infuriating for Venkman like. He's said plenty of times that he doesn't prefer it based on gender alone, which is a pretty crucial hinge point of the argument he's making like.

So what is it then? He can be infuriated as he likes, people cannot just make nonsensical arguments because they sound good man. 

 

We all prefer gendered things of various colours, it's not misogynistic and it doesn't need addressing. Keegan's commenta are clearly misogynistic.

[Tsunami]

I really struggle with female commentators. It’s nowt to do with what they say (most make more sense than say Clinton Morrison) it’s more to do with the shrieking. It’s like listening to the missus when she’s had a drink. 
 

Some really good presenters and analysts but the commentary makes my ears bleed. Sorry, but I really do dislike it.

[Hanshithispantz]

@Dr Venkmanis trying to work backwards towards a progressive view. It's obviously forced, hence how weird this conversation is getting.

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, Dr Venkman said:

I don’t consider myself an expert so I wouldn’t want to give a definitive answer but based on the parameters of the discussion so far I think if you’re not prejudiced purely based on sex that’s a more legitimate starting point.

 

Well those differences in the speed, athleticism and dynamism are essentially rooted in the differences between the sexes, no?

[oldtype]

12 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Is preferring the men's game due to the speed, athleticism and dynamic play, a preference based on sex?

 

Put it this way, I don't prefer men's football - I prefer Premier League football. If a woman were physically capable of playing in the Premier League then I'd have just as much fun watching her as I do a male player. Possibly more, because I imagine she would have quite the inspiring story. There just hasn't been someone like that yet.

 

On the other hand, women are very much capable of commentating on the same level as men. They just haven't had the opportunity because we've been artificially keeping them out of the profession for ages.

[MrRaspberryJam]

How can I hate women? My mums one. 

[TRon]

9 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

So what if the way you feel about the commentators extends to the pundits as well for some guys?

 

Mabe they don't find it as convincing or relatable and so would not prefer it.

 

You guys genuinely think that then means they have a hatred and prejudice against women?

 

That's really fascinating.

 

I don't really get that argument tbh. Pundits are there to make coherent points and offer insight into the game. An intelligent ex-pro who is female will always be more capable of doing that than some pisshead gobshite who happens to be male.

 

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, oldtype said:

 

Put it this way, I don't prefer men's football - I prefer Premier League football. If a woman were physically capable of playing in the Premier League then I'd have just as much fun watching her as I do a male player. Possibly more, because I imagine she would have quite the inspiring story. There just hasn't been someone like that yet.

 

On the other hand, women are very much capable of commentating on the same level as men. They just haven't had the opportunity because we've been artificially keeping them out of the profession for ages.

 

Yeah, bit there's no women like that though. Seems to me saying I prefer the men's game for the reasons I gave, which are based on differences between the sexes would be labelled as misogyny.

 

Regarding the commentary, yeah you might be fine with it and think it's the same, but if some other person doesn't think it is quite the same, then it means they hate women?!

 

Think that's a really unfortunate way of looking at things.

[oldtype]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Yeah, bit there's no women like that though. Seems to me saying I prefer the men's game for the reasons I gave, which are based on differences between the sexes would be labelled as misogyny.

 

Regarding the commentary, yeah you might be fine with it and think it's the same, but if some other person doesn't think it is quite the same, then it means they hate women?!

 

Think that's a really unfortunate way of looking at things.

 

It's fundamentally different though. Women are, for the most part, physically incapable of playing in the Premier League. It's not a matter of personal preference. They just can't do the job.

 

There is absolutely nothing preventing a woman from commentating at the same level as men. If someone nevertheless prefers that commentary be done exclusively by men, then that's their personal preference and they are entitled to it.

 

But I'm also entitled to react by pointing out that it's a dumb and misogynistic preference.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by oldtype

[Thomson Mouse]

2 minutes ago, oldtype said:

 

It's fundamentally different though. Women are, for the most part, physically incapable of playing in the Premier League. It's not a matter of personal preference. They just can't do the job.

 

There is absolutely nothing preventing a woman from commentating at the same level as men. If someone nevertheless prefers that commentary be done exclusively by men, then that's their personal preference and they are entitled to it.

 

But I'm also entitled to react by pointing out that it's a dumb and misogynistic preference.

 

 

 

 

The end

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

I don't really get that argument tbh. Pundits are there to make coherent points and offer insight into the game. An intelligent ex-pro who is female will always be more capable of doing that than some pisshead gobshite who happens to be male.

 

 

I mean as guys we all grow up watching the men's game, playing football against other guys, talking endlessly about football with other guys.

 

Maybe for some guys when they watch the punditry they just prefer to see the same because it's what they're are used to and that's it. It could be the level of banter that takes place in that kind of setup, the stories that are shared from the guys that are ex pros, which they find more compelling etc etc. Who knows?

 

I think reducing that to simply a hatred of women is really poor.