Kevin Keegan

[TRon]

9 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

Commentating, not commenting. Big difference which maybe I didn't make clear enough. My point was specifically about the main commentary gig where I think tone of voice plays a part and many people are more likely to have a preference for one sex over the other.

 

I said the same thing in my first post on here. I don't like listening to women commentators, the ones I've heard don't tend to convey the atmosphere of the game that well. I don't know if it's tone or what, but it doesn't work for me.

 

But when it comes to punditry, there's been some very good ones, at least compared to some of the male doylems we've had to hear talking absolute shit down the years.

[Dr Venkman]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Is preferring the men's game due to the speed, athleticism and dynamic play, a preference based on sex?

I don’t consider myself an expert so I wouldn’t want to give a definitive answer but based on the parameters of the discussion so far I think if you’re not prejudiced purely based on sex that’s a more legitimate starting point.

[Dr Venkman]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

This must be infuriating for Venkman like. He's said plenty of times that he doesn't prefer it based on gender alone, which is a pretty crucial hinge point of the argument he's making like.

Infuriating and very telling. The amount of men desperate to ‘catch you out’ on such a basic principle of what I see as human decency is depressing.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

I said the same thing in my first post on here. I don't like listening to women commentators, the ones I've heard don't tend to convey the atmosphere of the game that well. I don't know if it's tone or what, but it doesn't work for me.

 

But when it comes to punditry, there's been some very good ones, at least compared to some of the male doylems we've had to hear talking absolute shit down the years.

 

So what if the way you feel about the commentators extends to the pundits as well for some guys?

 

Mabe they don't find it as convincing or relatable and so would not prefer it.

 

You guys genuinely think that then means they have a hatred and prejudice against women?

 

That's really fascinating.

[Hanshithispantz]

3 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

This must be infuriating for Venkman like. He's said plenty of times that he doesn't prefer it based on gender alone, which is a pretty crucial hinge point of the argument he's making like.

So what is it then? He can be infuriated as he likes, people cannot just make nonsensical arguments because they sound good man. 

 

We all prefer gendered things of various colours, it's not misogynistic and it doesn't need addressing. Keegan's commenta are clearly misogynistic.

[Tsunami]

I really struggle with female commentators. It’s nowt to do with what they say (most make more sense than say Clinton Morrison) it’s more to do with the shrieking. It’s like listening to the missus when she’s had a drink. 
 

Some really good presenters and analysts but the commentary makes my ears bleed. Sorry, but I really do dislike it.

[Hanshithispantz]

@Dr Venkmanis trying to work backwards towards a progressive view. It's obviously forced, hence how weird this conversation is getting.

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, Dr Venkman said:

I don’t consider myself an expert so I wouldn’t want to give a definitive answer but based on the parameters of the discussion so far I think if you’re not prejudiced purely based on sex that’s a more legitimate starting point.

 

Well those differences in the speed, athleticism and dynamism are essentially rooted in the differences between the sexes, no?

[oldtype]

12 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Is preferring the men's game due to the speed, athleticism and dynamic play, a preference based on sex?

 

Put it this way, I don't prefer men's football - I prefer Premier League football. If a woman were physically capable of playing in the Premier League then I'd have just as much fun watching her as I do a male player. Possibly more, because I imagine she would have quite the inspiring story. There just hasn't been someone like that yet.

 

On the other hand, women are very much capable of commentating on the same level as men. They just haven't had the opportunity because we've been artificially keeping them out of the profession for ages.

[MrRaspberryJam]

How can I hate women? My mums one. 

[TRon]

9 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

So what if the way you feel about the commentators extends to the pundits as well for some guys?

 

Mabe they don't find it as convincing or relatable and so would not prefer it.

 

You guys genuinely think that then means they have a hatred and prejudice against women?

 

That's really fascinating.

 

I don't really get that argument tbh. Pundits are there to make coherent points and offer insight into the game. An intelligent ex-pro who is female will always be more capable of doing that than some pisshead gobshite who happens to be male.

 

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, oldtype said:

 

Put it this way, I don't prefer men's football - I prefer Premier League football. If a woman were physically capable of playing in the Premier League then I'd have just as much fun watching her as I do a male player. Possibly more, because I imagine she would have quite the inspiring story. There just hasn't been someone like that yet.

 

On the other hand, women are very much capable of commentating on the same level as men. They just haven't had the opportunity because we've been artificially keeping them out of the profession for ages.

 

Yeah, bit there's no women like that though. Seems to me saying I prefer the men's game for the reasons I gave, which are based on differences between the sexes would be labelled as misogyny.

 

Regarding the commentary, yeah you might be fine with it and think it's the same, but if some other person doesn't think it is quite the same, then it means they hate women?!

 

Think that's a really unfortunate way of looking at things.

[oldtype]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Yeah, bit there's no women like that though. Seems to me saying I prefer the men's game for the reasons I gave, which are based on differences between the sexes would be labelled as misogyny.

 

Regarding the commentary, yeah you might be fine with it and think it's the same, but if some other person doesn't think it is quite the same, then it means they hate women?!

 

Think that's a really unfortunate way of looking at things.

 

It's fundamentally different though. Women are, for the most part, physically incapable of playing in the Premier League. It's not a matter of personal preference. They just can't do the job.

 

There is absolutely nothing preventing a woman from commentating at the same level as men. If someone nevertheless prefers that commentary be done exclusively by men, then that's their personal preference and they are entitled to it.

 

But I'm also entitled to react by pointing out that it's a dumb and misogynistic preference.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by oldtype

[Thomson Mouse]

2 minutes ago, oldtype said:

 

It's fundamentally different though. Women are, for the most part, physically incapable of playing in the Premier League. It's not a matter of personal preference. They just can't do the job.

 

There is absolutely nothing preventing a woman from commentating at the same level as men. If someone nevertheless prefers that commentary be done exclusively by men, then that's their personal preference and they are entitled to it.

 

But I'm also entitled to react by pointing out that it's a dumb and misogynistic preference.

 

 

 

 

The end

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, TRon said:

 

I don't really get that argument tbh. Pundits are there to make coherent points and offer insight into the game. An intelligent ex-pro who is female will always be more capable of doing that than some pisshead gobshite who happens to be male.

 

 

I mean as guys we all grow up watching the men's game, playing football against other guys, talking endlessly about football with other guys.

 

Maybe for some guys when they watch the punditry they just prefer to see the same because it's what they're are used to and that's it. It could be the level of banter that takes place in that kind of setup, the stories that are shared from the guys that are ex pros, which they find more compelling etc etc. Who knows?

 

I think reducing that to simply a hatred of women is really poor.

[llcoolc157]

Think Keegans  bang on the money meeself like…

I struggle to get away with that ‘try hard’ who shrieks her way through every match… and yes, I know, there are poor male pundits too…

I just used to like a bit of comedy, interaction, light hearted banter that you’d get from a few male ex pros… a bit of entertainment if you like… now it’s all about analysing with the same old cliches ‘well they lacked a bit of quality in the final third’ or ‘they failed to cope with the high press’… hear the same shite every week…

[Thomson Mouse]

It’s clearly not the end but that’s it for me  

[Thomson Mouse]

3 minutes ago, llcoolc157 said:

Think Keegans  bang on the money meeself like…

I struggle to get away with that ‘try hard’ who shrieks her way through every match… and yes, I know, there are poor male pundits too…

I just used to like a bit of comedy, interaction, light hearted banter that you’d get from a few male ex pros… a bit of entertainment if you like… now it’s all about analysing with the same old cliches ‘well they lacked a bit of quality in the final third’ or ‘they failed to cope with the high press’… hear the same shite every week…

 

An additional   

[KaKa]

4 minutes ago, oldtype said:

 

But I'm also entitled to react by pointing out that it's a dumb and misogynistic preference.

 

 

Hey, go for it. 

 

Some people are more prone to imagine the worst of other people, so I get it.

[TRon]

1 minute ago, KaKa said:

 

I mean as guys we all grow up watching the men's game, playing football against other guys, talking endlessly about football with other guys.

 

Maybe for some guys when they watch the punditry they just prefer to see the same because it's what they're are used to and that's it. It could be the level of banter that takes place in that kind of setup, the stories that are shared from the guys that are ex pros, which they find more compelling etc etc. Who knows?

 

I think reducing that to simply a hatred of women is really poor.

 

I'm not really interested in talk about hatred for women or misogyny tbh, I'm not sure what that's got to do with this. I don't watch women's football, but I support it 100%. I'm sure lots of people really enjoy it and fair play to them. I watch women's tennis same as I watch men's tournaments, this is just a personal preference.

 

But when it comes to listening to football opinions  I prefer to listen to people who can offer some insight rather than buffoons regardless of the sex.

[TRon]

7 minutes ago, llcoolc157 said:

Think Keegans  bang on the money meeself like…

I struggle to get away with that ‘try hard’ who shrieks her way through every match… and yes, I know, there are poor male pundits too…

I just used to like a bit of comedy, interaction, light hearted banter that you’d get from a few male ex pros… a bit of entertainment if you like… now it’s all about analysing with the same old cliches ‘well they lacked a bit of quality in the final third’ or ‘they failed to cope with the high press’… hear the same shite every week…

 

Not sure if this is a wind up but if it is it's top stuff.

[MrRaspberryJam]

They should be equal. 

[MrRaspberryJam]

Just now, MrRaspberryJam said:

They should be equal. 

I’ve always said that.  

[oldtype]

8 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

I mean as guys we all grow up watching the men's game, playing football against other guys, talking endlessly about football with other guys.

 

Maybe for some guys when they watch the punditry they just prefer to see the same because it's what they're are used to and that's it. It could be the level of banter that takes place in that kind of setup, the stories that are shared from the guys that are ex pros, which they find more compelling etc etc. Who knows?

 

I think reducing that to simply a hatred of women is really poor.

 

Of course. As men, we are generally more comfortable around and familiar with men. So aside from sexual partners, we generally prefer to surround ourselves with men: socially, in the workplace, in the media we consume etc. It's perfectly natural.

 

...it's also exactly why women have been systematically excluded from jobs they are perfectly capable of performing (such as football commentary) for decades.

 

Congratulations @KaKa, you've managed to perfectly describe the underlying mechanism of institutional misogyny.

[KaKa]

Just now, TRon said:

 

I'm not really interested in talk about hatred for women or misogyny tbh, I'm not sure what that's got to do with this. I don't watch women's football, but I support it 100%. I'm sure lots of people really enjoy it and fair play to them. I watch women's tennis same as I watch men's tournaments, this is just a personal preference.

 

But when it comes to listening to football opinions  I prefer to listen to people who can offer some insight rather than buffoons regardless of the sex.

 

Well it's got to do with it because the misogyny label is getting flung at people left, right and centre.

 

And regarding your preference, you are entitled to it, but it's not going to be the same for everyone for various reasons.