Zero Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 It is only my opinion but it's based on what was happening, not what could have happened. Obviously things could have changed for the better, I didn't see a single sign of things turning around for the better, if anything, things were getting worse and we had a set of circumstances which were going to make things tougher, if anything. I know Roeder had his better results when he was forced to play a team and that could have happened for Allardyce, I doubt it though. I agree that he doesn't look like he could turn it around but I think it's mainly because the players know the manager doesn't really have Ashley's backing. So that's why I think Allardyce was destined to fail because of Ashley's stubbornness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Keegan will need more money because he's a chequebook charlie manager, although I've got more faith in him spending money well compared to fat Sam who spent the majority of his on grafters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I do think it's a problematic argument that if Keegan is the one who employed last summer we would be in a better position. As the fans doesn't like Sam's football style, it's definitely ok to bash him off by picking out his negatives, but at the end of the day it's ultimately Ashley's fault for the mess. Please don't suggest that he shouldn't be blamed because he has cleared our debt, that's irrelevant. No matter how much you disliked Allardyce, you must agree that he is not brought in as an immediate wonder maker, and he has also declared that he needs at least 3 years to turn the club around. He is in fact a long term solution and his main responsibilities for these few seasons is to restructure the club, like investing in youth players, inserting new medical staff, etc. Yes the pro-zone stuff makes him looks stubborn but overall he is really improving the club as a whole, in terms of hardware I would say. And, what Ashley think is "Why not just give him a try? It doesn't hurt and if things doesn't look good then fire him". Tell me what the fxxk is this logic for temporarily keep a manager who can only success in long term. To be fair, Ashley was in a no win situation. Had he sacked Big Sam at the start of the season many a fan would have jumped on his back where as the media would have had a field day too. Also, there is no telling had he done just that, things would be better now. I think we need to stop with the introspection for what it's worth and just concentrate solely on matters at hand and the future because we're going round in circles here and really, not getting anywhere, regardless of where we all sit on the debate, be it Allardyce, his sacking, Ashley's timing and so on. We have a huge game tomorrow, lets focus on that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Keegan will need more money because he's a chequebook charlie manager, although I've got more faith in him spending money well compared to fat Sam who spent the majority of his on grafters. Most successful managers are now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Keegan will need more money because he's a chequebook charlie manager, although I've got more faith in him spending money well compared to fat Sam who spent the majority of his on grafters. Which takes us back to the arguments about backing. Everyone knows Keegan spends money. He wouldn't have come back here without promises of bundles of cash. That can only mean they are prepared to back him in the summer. Off-topic btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 He did, but when you factor in expectations under Keegan from the fans and of course, the man's own ambitions and type of players he will want on board, I just think it will require more funding. KK will want top players here, players that have ability and they tend to cost more, he'll also want to challenge the top 6 and with it the top 4 ideally, where as Big Sam would have settled for gradual improvements, i.e. top 10, top 6, then maybe top 4. KK will want to take a short cut and so might Ashley too. As fans we all would as I don't think even KK will get the slack required for a gradual rebuild. This is why in the summer he will need big money and if it doesn't come, we may as well get rid of KK and look for a manager who can build us up the gradual one step at a time way which I don't think KK is capable of. It's almost all or nothing with KK. I know what you're saying but transfers are about value for money, Keegan has had a track record here which is second to none in that regard. If he buys £20 million players and they work out then he'll do more than a manager who buys players for £6 million that don't work out. You need to buy more £6 million failures then £20 million successes to get to the same place. 3 x £20 million successes are better than 10 x £ 6 million failures, even though they cost the same in total. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 To be fair, Ashley was in a no win situation. Had he sacked Big Sam at the start of the season many a fan would have jumped on his back where as the media would have had a field day too. Also, there is no telling had he done just that, things would be better now. I think we need to stop with the introspection for what it's worth and just concentrate solely on matters at hand and the future because we're going round in circles here and really, not getting anywhere, regardless of where we all sit on the debate, be it Allardyce, his sacking, Ashley's timing and so on. We have a huge game tomorrow, lets focus on that. No, I couldn't agree with that. If what Ashley wants is immediate success, he can really hire a world class manager and back him with, say, 80m and brought in a few stars. I don't think anyone here will blame Ashley for that right? Or certainly Ashley must be blamed if he sacked Allardyce and hire a new manager with no money backings. The point is, if you want short term success you gotta show the money, and if you want long term success you gotta show your patience and backings, especially under the situation of takeover like us. And tell me how could a manager succeed if he has no real backings from the owner? Players lose faith in him in an unsual short period of time and this is definitely not only due to Allardyce's style. And, if failure is the only outcome for Allardyce as a result of Ashley' stubbornness, then why give him the rest of the season? It would be correct to hire a new manager and give him time to understand the team. If you think Ashley shouldn't be blamed for his initial purpose last July, then you also shouldn't criticize his sacking of Sam. Of course his choice of Keegan is another matter, but the sacking alone isn't wrong at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 How you base your opinion and what on doesn't necessarily make it more valid than anyone else though which is the impression a lot of people who claim we'd be worse off or the same had we stuck with Big Sam give off when replying to those who think oppositely. Truth told, no-one knows and therefore has no upper hand or right of way in that particular debate. The trends were all downwards but you're right in as much as none of us know for sure what would have happened, nothing was suggesting we were going to do better, plenty of things suggested things were not going to improve or were going to get worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I agree that he doesn't look like he could turn it around but I think it's mainly because the players know the manager doesn't really have Ashley's backing. So that's why I think Allardyce was destined to fail because of Ashley's stubbornness. Allardyce was destined to fail because the players he invested in were not performing, neither were those who he inherited. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Sam's best signings were Beye and Faye, and his top scorer was Martins. They were all just about to fuck off to the ACN... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Liam Liam O Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 HTT. How many of his 9 summer signings would you say have been a success? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I cant believe Allardyce is trying to suggest that what Ramos is achieving at Spurs was something similar to what he was doing. I think Ramos achieved more in the first 4 weeks that Sam did in 6 months Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I cant believe Allardyce is trying to suggest that what Ramos is achieving at Spurs was something similar to what he was doing. I think Ramos achieved more in the first 4 weeks that Sam did in 6 months Spurs were already playing good football under Jol, they just needed to freshen things up which Ramos has done. No comparison whatsoever to the dross Allardyce was serving up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustynrg Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I agree with the bit about KK being hopelessly out of his depth. BSA should have been given a season. Sacking him and replacing him with KK has made us a laughing stock. Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I agree with the bit about KK being hopelessly out of his depth. BSA should have been given a season. Sacking him and replacing him with KK has made us a laughing stock. Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert I thought that saying KK was "hopelessly" out of his depth was a scandalous comment. You cant say that 1 manager should have been given more time, then call another manager hopelessly out of his depth after 8/9 games against some of the best teams in the league whilst having to use the players handed to him by the previous manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 As ever he's pretty much spot on with his comments. It's a shame the players didn't take to Big Sam's methods because it is they who are ultimately responsible for the mess we find ourselves in. I find his comments on that very telling. Which players is he referring to then? He bought Smith and Barton (to play Ramos football no doubt ) and he gave Butt a new contract. He didn't play Enrique, another one of his signings. Which leaves who? Owen? He was picked ahead of Martins so who's fault is that? Given, Duff, Owen have made remarks, cant think of them atm but they definitely have. Was going to say Charlie but then he is never happy. Allardyce picked all three ahead of other alternatives, so again: who's fault is that? Just becasue he picks them doesn't mean they have bought into his methods. At the same time he is not going to play poorer players because they have. As he said he believes over time he would of turned it around & with his success at Bolton he will belive that. Am I glad he is gone? Yes. Do I think he could of turned it around? No. Can I see his point of view? Yes. His point about Ramos is complete hogwash though. Ramos doesn't play long ball football. The players he was picking to play direct football obviously weren't suited to it, and neither were the ones he bought in. If you wanted to play football like Ramos why would you buy Alan Smith? If you are going to defend then you need players with pace to hit on the break, not players like Geremi, Barton or Viduka who are slow. Shame his fucking opta stats couldn't tell him that you can't play football on the break if you fill the team full of plodders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 I agree with the bit about KK being hopelessly out of his depth. BSA should have been given a season. Sacking him and replacing him with KK has made us a laughing stock. Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert Andy Dunn alert I thought that saying KK was "hopelessly" out of his depth was a scandalous comment. You cant say that 1 manager should have been given more time, then call another manager hopelessly out of his depth after 8/9 games against some of the best teams in the league whilst having to use the players handed to him by the previous manager. I thought the same. Doesn't seem to register with the hypocrites. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thespence Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 His point about Ramos is complete hogwash though. I think he was slightly referring to the fact Spurs are no longer fat bastards because they bought into the diet concept. They are more organised defensively now, regardless of the goal city have just scored. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alan Shearer 9 Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 1 in 6 vs Derby. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Jerusalem Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Like trying to build the Empire State in a month - in eight months he hadn't managed to build a hut I'd feel safe to leave half filled tins of paint and a rusty old bike with one wheel in. Home kickings against Portsmouth and Liverpool (the day they might as well have played eleven men outfield), two good kickings from Man City, one point versus Derby county (the team who are going to break The Mackems record for worst team in history for fuck's sake), Wigan and Reading away, giving Nicky Butt a new contract, playing his best two wingers as wingers from the start in one game and even then playing them on the wrong side, spunking 18 million on shite, psycho's and players that don't even make the bench - those are the sort of stats and facts that journalists should be firing back at this charlatan when he's trying to misdirect the blame for his time here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We all need to get together and rewatch that Derby game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JamesD Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We all need to get together and rewatch that Derby game. Still their only win this season. Wonder why Sam doesn't like that statistic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider Jerusalem Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We all need to get together and rewatch that Derby game. I'll need plenty more beer than I consumed during that match, but this time beforehand, before I would put myself through that again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dustynrg Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 We all need to get together and rewatch that Derby game. Looking back - was that the beginning of the end (SA)? I remember being madly excited that we'd score a shitload, then after about 10 minutes it was obvious he had told them to defend and not attack. But the journos have forgotten about that game - and all the rest of the dross. Oh how I hope he becomes manager of one of their favourite teams like Spurs, but I realise that would never happen like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted March 16, 2008 Share Posted March 16, 2008 Looking back - was that the beginning of the end (SA)? I remember being madly excited that we'd score a shitload, then after about 10 minutes it was obvious he had told them to defend and not attack. But the journos have forgotten about that game - and all the rest of the dross. Oh how I hope he becomes manager of one of their favourite teams like Spurs, but I realise that would never happen like. I've always thought that was the beginning of the end, I felt cheated when I heard the team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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