Can we compete with Manchester City?

[NE5]

Sorry, hadn't noticed it elsewhere. 

 

I definately agree that I don't think that Pompey would be a good model to base our club on, one with higher league finishes, questionably bigger names in the squad and a much bigger supportbase & stadium, but I can't help but feel that we're behind them.. based on the last few seasons and the progress they've made compared to our slump.

 

I do share your ambition of aiming for the top and by signing Europes finest, but I honestly don't see them coming to us at this moment in time. Lets say the club aimed to get us.. say.. 6th next season, would you as the devout expectant fan you are, accept that? I think we definately have the pull and potential to reach this next season, presuming we can get the players in. I'd love nothing more than to get them 2-2s at the San Siro but I really can't see the for the next few years. What would be your minimum satisfication.

 

Alternatevly... who here would take 13th next season & the league cup? - or 6th place finish?

 

 

I've seen Newcastle lose 4 Cup Finals at Wembley. I did see all the home games in 1969 Fairs Cup run but was only 14 so couldn't go to Budapest for the 2nd leg.

 

So I want to see Newcastle win a major trophy, and be there, but I know that bigger than that the club should be in the top clubs more than they have over the last 50 years, and winning the odd trophy on the back of that, rather than just a one off cup win, the likes of  what pompey have just done.

 

They may be in europe, won the FA Cup and be above us at the moment, but any player prepared to spend 4 or 5 years of his career, surely knows that we are the bigger bet in the long run and if they don't should be shown its the case.

 

Unless of course, this pompey chairman is prepared to do an Abramovic, in which case they will get above and stay above some other bigger clubs and not just us.

 

 

[NE5]

I think Barca have had the best of Ronaldinho. If he goes to Citeh, I can see it all ending in tears.

 

Its a statement of intent but one which would be better served by signing 6 very good players (on £40k per week) to improve the strength of their squad.

 

It's a commercial decision this, not a football one.

 

100% correct in my opinion, half a dozen solid players will achieve far more in footballing terms. Finding them however is not always so easy.

 

How exactly? A club can only have 11 players on the pitch at any one time. We are talking about Premiership clubs here, and in the case of Manchester City they already have plenty of good players on 40k a week. A top quality player wins you games you otherwise would't win, and I'm sure most of us realise Ronaldinho is in that bracket, if not one of the best in the world at it. We have plenty of so-called good players on 40k a week and they simply crumble when faced with players of a higher calibre. Trying to bring in players from a level above if they are available and would be willing to come could be the difference between midtable and possibly breaking the top 4, in which case income from Champions League football will offset the spending. Yes, it is a risky strategy, but you don't break into the top 4 from midtable without taking risks anymore unfortunately. We took the risk before under Shepher and it sort of blew up in our face eventually. Now we have a new owner and it is crunch time for him: will he take a risk and invest accordingly or consolidate, which in this case is moving backwards seeing as our competitors aren't fannying about..?

 

 

wonder how many times this has to be repeated until the message gets through

 

It's quality that counts

 

Yes it is quality that counts, but one single player does not make a team, never has done. They need to get better players across the board, to break into the top 4, not one star player. What happens when he is injured? Top teams all have strength in depth, that in my opinion is the stepping stone to success, not wasting money on a former galactico who is just playing for one last pay packet.

 

That's not strictly true. Maradonna carried Napoli to success by himself.

 

arguably Argentina in  1986 on the World Stage too. Handball against england or not.

 

 

[mrmojorisin75]

Laughable as it may seem, according to the BBC (Radio Five Live are running it on their sport bulletins) Man City have been given permission by Barcelona to open talks with Ronaldinho.

 

Now supposing this is true, and they stand any chance of getting him, should we be in for him? And if so, could we beat City to his signature?

 

Nobody seems to be laughing at their attempts like they certainly would be if it were us, why is that?

 

Think about it; it'd be trophy-signingtastic but it'd stun the fans (could there be a bigger statement of intent?), satisfy the board (shirt sales aplenty, baby) and surely be a dream for any manager, let alone the attack-minded Keegan.

 

The world would sit up and listen. Season ticket sales would go through the roof. Hell, even MaethiS and NE5 might shut up for a day or two.

 

On his own, not a chance.  On his own its pretty much what you would call the ultimate "trophy" signing.

 

Their ticket sales etc would go through the roof, naturally and rightly so. But what really matters is they follow it up with 2 or 3 really top quality younger signings. Such as Bentley, for one.  Persuading one or two players like Hart, Richards, Dunne and Johnson to sign longer deals. Now THAT would really convince me.

 

As for Newcastle United, and people saying that our new way of searching for bargains and kids is the way to go Would anybody on this message board not be delighted if Newcastle United did the above ?

 

Your point in bold is excellent Dave

 

 

 

we kind of discussed this on another thread but never got down to brass tacks regarding ambition for NUFC - what do you think is a realistic summer ambition for us?  as you say here man city already have a better squad than us so if they sign ronaldinho and YOU still reckon they need another 3-4 bentley-esque signings, what is realistic for us this summer?

 

given the amount of players we need rid of 'cause they're s***, plus the ones we've already let go we would need some amount of rebuilding huh?

 

suppose i'm trying to pin you down on details that i might not get, but in your posts there's always an undercurrent of impatience, if you like; if we're ambitious enough to crack the top four we'll spend money and that's about it...do you think we could have a such a summer to leave us in a position to have a go at the top four next season?  if not when do you think we should be aiming for that by? 

 

i'm genuinely interested mind, this is not a fishing expedition 'cause i reckon we agree on the basics - buying the best players makes the best teams!

 

for my part i honestly, honestly think it would take an investment of 100m+ to get us anywhere near europe again and as that's never happened in football apart from the one obvious exception & consider it unrealistic for us, or indeed anyone else...as for 2-3 consecutive 50m spending summers that's a different matter - it's what i think we should be expecting a minimum personally if you consider nothing else bar the increased TV revenue each club gets, spending anything less than that is akin to f***ing the fans over IMO

[Optimistic Nut]

Think you can add Portsmouth to Man City now. Linked with Vieira. If that had been us the press would have been sniggering, but I could see that one happening too.

[UV]

To answer the thread:

 

Can we? - Of course

Will we? - Not a snowball in hell's chance

Should we? - Not on this one IMO

 

[mrmojorisin75]

To answer the thread:

 

Can we? - Of course

Will we? - Not a snowball in hell's chance

Should we? - Not on this one IMO

 

 

if only all replies could be as succint as this!!  and agreed on all points, by the way

[NE5]

Laughable as it may seem, according to the BBC (Radio Five Live are running it on their sport bulletins) Man City have been given permission by Barcelona to open talks with Ronaldinho.

 

Now supposing this is true, and they stand any chance of getting him, should we be in for him? And if so, could we beat City to his signature?

 

Nobody seems to be laughing at their attempts like they certainly would be if it were us, why is that?

 

Think about it; it'd be trophy-signingtastic but it'd stun the fans (could there be a bigger statement of intent?), satisfy the board (shirt sales aplenty, baby) and surely be a dream for any manager, let alone the attack-minded Keegan.

 

The world would sit up and listen. Season ticket sales would go through the roof. Hell, even MaethiS and NE5 might shut up for a day or two.

 

On his own, not a chance.  On his own its pretty much what you would call the ultimate "trophy" signing.

 

Their ticket sales etc would go through the roof, naturally and rightly so. But what really matters is they follow it up with 2 or 3 really top quality younger signings. Such as Bentley, for one.  Persuading one or two players like Hart, Richards, Dunne and Johnson to sign longer deals. Now THAT would really convince me.

 

As for Newcastle United, and people saying that our new way of searching for bargains and kids is the way to go Would anybody on this message board not be delighted if Newcastle United did the above ?

 

Your point in bold is excellent Dave

 

 

 

we kind of discussed this on another thread but never got down to brass tacks regarding ambition for NUFC - what do you think is a realistic summer ambition for us?  as you say here man city already have a better squad than us so if they sign ronaldinho and YOU still reckon they need another 3-4 bentley-esque signings, what is realistic for us this summer?

 

given the amount of players we need rid of 'cause they're s***, plus the ones we've already let go we would need some amount of rebuilding huh?

 

suppose i'm trying to pin you down on details that i might not get, but in your posts there's always an undercurrent of impatience, if you like; if we're ambitious enough to crack the top four we'll spend money and that's about it...do you think we could have a such a summer to leave us in a position to have a go at the top four next season?  if not when do you think we should be aiming for that by? 

 

i'm genuinely interested mind, this is not a fishing expedition 'cause i reckon we agree on the basics - buying the best players makes the best teams!

 

for my part i honestly, honestly think it would take an investment of 100m+ to get us anywhere near europe again and as that's never happened in football apart from the one obvious exception & consider it unrealistic for us, or indeed anyone else...as for 2-3 consecutive 50m spending summers that's a different matter - it's what i think we should be expecting a minimum personally if you consider nothing else bar the increased TV revenue each club gets, spending anything less than that is akin to f***ing the fans over IMO

 

Impatient ? I've always been like this mate. I've never understood why we buy 2nd rate players ie not through bad judgement as in the likes of Boumsong, but in setting 2nd rate standards. There's a difference.

 

In terms of money, I don't know what to expect/demand. But I expect/demand standards . If they make a few good signings who are quality, and setting out the standards they should, I'll be happy, and see from that that they have the right idea and so are moving forward. I suppose what I'm saying is if they are going to spend 30m quid I would rather see 2 quality players for 15m quid each than 6 for 5m quid. Thats always been my view.

 

There is no problem with scouting around the lower leagues looking for the next Rob Lee, but people have to get this sort of thing into context. It just doesn't work like that. Sign 20 players from that sort of department, and only about 4 would be what you want, at the most. So you've paid the money for 20 players, and still need another 7.

 

Every top team has 3 or 4 players who are absolutely top drawer, otherwise they wouldn't be in the top 4. You have to pay the money when these players are available.

 

I would never criticise a board of directors for trying to bring quality footballers into the football club, thats what you want from them !!!!!

 

I agree with the short post by UV. We have to compete with our rivals, at the time, thats what its all about.

 

I don't think there is much between us and a top 6 place if we do, its all about which managers show the best judgement ie between us, Spuds, Man City and Villa now probably, being the clubs with the biggest support. Getting higher than that is a taller order as you say, but over a few years any of these teams could do it and in time one or more will. Do you think anybody else could do it ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave]

You won't be criticising this board then, considering they tried to bring in Modric?

[Teasy]

He would be a amazing capture for City as it would almost guarantee that others would follow him to Eastlands. Playing alongside a former World Player of the Year certainly has more appeal than playing alongside the likes of Milner or Geremi. 

 

Why Milner and Geremi in particular? 

[NE5]

You won't be criticising this board then, considering they tried to bring in Modric?

 

but they didn't Dave.

 

Punchline = WHEN they have brought in some top quality players.....

 

The old board pre-1992 used to lie a lot BTW, oh and sold our best players, and wouldnt' compete for wages etc etc .......

 

Downward spiral begins

 

Are you confident we will compete with our main rivals ?

 

 

 

[Dave]

So when you said 'I would never criticise a board of directors for trying to bring quality footballers into the football club' then what you actually meant was 'I would never criticise a board of directors for bringing quality footballers into the football club'?

 

Because that's rather obvious, don't you think?

[Dokko]

Ronaldinho rejects £200k a week contract from Citeh, he wants at least £250k.

 

[NE5]

So when you said 'I would never criticise a board of directors for trying to bring quality footballers into the football club' then what you actually meant was 'I would never criticise a board of directors for bringing quality footballers into the football club'?

 

Because that's rather obvious, don't you think?

 

no. They haven't brought any in yet.

 

When they show they understand this is how to do it........don't expect them to buy EVERY target they chase.

 

Unrealistic, like people who expect us to stay 2nd in the league forever. Silly in fact.

 

 

[Guest optimistic nit]

reckon they'll match him tbh.

[Disco]

Ronaldinho rejects £200k a week contract from Citeh, he wants at least £250k.

 

 

Be funny as fuck if they give that then he gets injured first game.

[Dave]

So when you said 'I would never criticise a board of directors for trying to bring quality footballers into the football club' then what you actually meant was 'I would never criticise a board of directors for bringing quality footballers into the football club'?

 

Because that's rather obvious, don't you think?

 

no. They haven't brought any in yet.

 

When they show they understand this is how to do it........don't expect them to buy EVERY target they chase.

 

Unrealistic, like people who expect us to stay 2nd in the league forever. Silly in fact.

 

 

 

So had we smashed our club record and signed apparently one of the hottest prospects in European football, like we were this close to doing, you would have commended the board for that? I'm sorry mate, but I just don't believe that you would have.

[NE5]

So when you said 'I would never criticise a board of directors for trying to bring quality footballers into the football club' then what you actually meant was 'I would never criticise a board of directors for bringing quality footballers into the football club'?

 

Because that's rather obvious, don't you think?

 

no. They haven't brought any in yet.

 

When they show they understand this is how to do it........don't expect them to buy EVERY target they chase.

 

Unrealistic, like people who expect us to stay 2nd in the league forever. Silly in fact.

 

 

 

So had we smashed our club record and signed apparently one of the hottest prospects in European football, like we were this close to doing, you would have commended the board for that? I'm sorry mate, but I just don't believe that you would have.

 

why not ?

 

BTW, player(s), not player.

 

The old board pre-1992 signed the odd "trophy" signing ie Keegan, Withe. The difference being that they really "trophy signings" in the real meaning of the phrase ie a sap to the fans, the rest of the team was shit, and they had no intention of signing anybody else half decent to play with them.

 

They have caused their own problems in my eyes, by virtue of telling us in November we wouldn't be buying players in January while struggling at the time, 2 managers complaining about losing out on targets through being unable to complete transfer deals, the chairman saying buying half a dozen players for 20m quid was "good business", and seemingly going against the managers wishes by inflicting a wage cap that will lead to losing a player he wants to keep,.

 

Only they can change my view of them. And taking aside the people on this board, an increasing amount of people are starting to realise, or fear, that things are not what was hoped for. Or at least, people I have chatted to lately should I say.

 

 

 

 

[Ericz]

Remember, Football is a business today. Mike Ashley earns the money through his successes and he probably feels that the risks are not worth-taking through his usual way of business analysis and experiences. Also, there may not be people around willing and able to convince him otherwise (Maybe they don't know how to or don't wish to offend him or even both.)

 

As much as I do see your viewpoints, however, as a cautious person myself, I feel uncomfortable spending a large fortune on Ronaldinho who is unable to guarantee returns. As for Patrick Viera, it really depends on the price and the information gathered. Of course, I'm not saying you are wrong but if I am paying something out, I expects something back eventually and that might be what Mike Ashley is thinking.

 

Arsenal's business model looks to be pretty sound as the club is running on its own and the shareholders are reaping dividends annually and their annual share prices are going up. From a business point of view, that is where I want to be. A secured investment that is able to reap high dividends (higher than annual inflation rate or/and pounds annual devaluation) at low-risk.

 

Football is a sport, a passion for some but a man still has to feed himself somehow and money is never enough. (Just a realistic point of view) It is easy for all of us to say buy this player, buy that player.. but where it really comes to our own money and the amount is significant, it really is another story altogether.

 

PS: I'm just trying to guess how the Ashley man might think or feel about the whole situation (or rather put myself in his shoes). I may be wrong.

[afar]

I think 200k per week for Ronaldinho would pay for itself in no time. He's a marketing man's dream, as well as the additional shirt sales (not just for supporters of Man City) but also the amount of increased advertiseing revenue, TV money, corporate sales and of course ticket sales, he would bring in.

 

Ronaldinho is a huge pull as well for prospective signings, raises a clubs profile way more than qualifying for the UEFA cup.

 

There are only a few players in the world that can have this effect: Brand Beckham is way out in front of course. But Brand Ronaldinho is still very much 2nd in the world. Brands Kaka and C Ronaldo probably make up the top tier which I talk about. Brands Messi, Rooney, Henry and Sheva aren't far behind but wouldn't have the same impact on clubs like ManShitty.

 

Could you imagine the Ronaldinho roadshow that would take place as I say a marketing man's dream, especially if he's a big fish in a small pond.

 

Should we be interested? From a marketing point of view a no brainer. From a footballing point of view, as long as we could control the circus, and the hooplah doesn't become a distraction, then it could be an excellent signing. You don't go from the World's best player to a donkey over night, so I'm fairly convinced he would improve our team, he'll also help hugely in attracting others.

 

The more I think about it the more I envy ManShitty, Ronaldinho would be a perfect fit for us, and in KK he may of had a great manager to play for.

 

[lovejoy]

Ronaldinho rejects £200k a week contract from Citeh, he wants at least £250k.

 

 

 

 

aye, just read that, what a knob!

 

and they are flying out to brazil to iron it out (which i presume means increase their offer).

 

mental

[Ericz]

Another alternative perspective for Mike Ashley: - The amount are fictitious.

 

Ronaldinho: £30 million Transfer Fee + £200,000 per week Salary = Might return to his best in the future

 

A young potential talent: £1 million Transfer Fee + £4,000 per week Salary = Might be one of the best in the future

 

The former definitely has a higher stake compared to the latter. With one Ronaldinho, it is like putting all the eggs in one basket. Isn't the world into diversification these days? Mike Ashley seems to be into that judging by his investments/shareholdings in various businesses. It's spreading out the risks/opportunities.

 

Ronaldinho isn't a huge pull for me to be honest. I asked some of my friends (both males and females). The males don't find him a huge icon (not these days). The females don't find him attractive at all. Football is important but looks is equally important.

 

Assuming Ronaldinho is on a salary of £200,000 per week for 3 years, that is equivalent to approximately £10.6 million annually. If he does well, his stocks will of course fly but if he performs badly in the 1st season, his stocks will fall in the 2nd and 3rd season, not to mention, he will command a much lesser transfer fee or no one will come in for him due to his high transfer fees and high wage demands. That might become a liability.

 

Tough call.

 

Note: It would be good if we are able to have a record of his shirt sales during

         

          ( a ) When he is at his peak of his career

          ( b ) His shirt sales for the past 6 months

 

As for Manchester City Supporters, put it this way, Ronaldinho or no Ronaldinho, majority of the supporters who purchase imitation shirts will still carry on purchasing imitation shirts of his (These days, imitations look exactly like the real thing, credit to China?). Supporters who purchase genuine shirts will still carry on purchasing genuine shirts (No extra profits made). Of course, new/existing supporters may be attracted to purchase a Ronaldinho shirt (but how many are there? Enough to make up £10.6 million a year together with advertisements etc?). Need more precedents I think.

 

As for other commercial exploitations on the Ronaldinho's brand name (i.e. advertisements, box sales etc), I am fairly certain a large amount of them have been sold out for the next season. So would that mean money-making potential for next season will be curtailed? Assuming he does not do so good, average for the 1st season, would commercial partners still be willing to pay high amount for the Ronaldinho's brand name in Ronaldinho's 2nd and 3rd season?

 

Again, tough call.

 

Of course, if he succeeds, the rewards are fantastic. It's pretty much the same with a bright young potential/talent succeeding, however, the chances can be said to be lower individually but there are more 'baskets' (meh, we definitely need an actuary to formulate a formula and calculate the probabilities based on statistics.). The stakes won't be that high as well. A big club can undercut/resort to economic duress on youngsters and their minor parent clubs but against a big player and a big club, is economic duress possible? mmm...

[LoveItIfWeBeatU]

We've put all our eggs in one basket before and it doesn't work. What happens if he gets injured? All that money a week for someone not playing. Spread the risk and wages across 3 or 4 good players rather than one world class one. The fact that the Barcelona fans don't seem bothered about losing Ronaldinho speaks volumes. I remember they were happy to get rid of Kluivert and we found out why.

 

As for signing Ronaldinho helping attracting other good players to a club, isn't Michael Owen supposed to do that for us?

 

good players win you nowt, only class ones do that. I'm advocating a general proven principle here, not individuals, because I too would be concerned about Ronaldhino's motivation. However, it seems that our owner is maybe not going to go down the route of taking on the top clubs for the best players, so thats that then.

 

Cutting Micheal Owen's pay packet will probably lose him by the way.

Depends on your definition of "Good". I would say Newcastle only have a couple of good players. We have a lot of average players.

 

World class players are the names everyone knows e.g. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi, etc. Even the top Champions League teams only usually have one player of that quality.

 

As for people thinking shirt sales would pay Ronaldinho's weekly wage, if his wage was £200K and a shirt cost £45 they'd have to sell 4444 shirts every week to cover his wages.

[NE5]

We've put all our eggs in one basket before and it doesn't work. What happens if he gets injured? All that money a week for someone not playing. Spread the risk and wages across 3 or 4 good players rather than one world class one. The fact that the Barcelona fans don't seem bothered about losing Ronaldinho speaks volumes. I remember they were happy to get rid of Kluivert and we found out why.

 

As for signing Ronaldinho helping attracting other good players to a club, isn't Michael Owen supposed to do that for us?

 

good players win you nowt, only class ones do that. I'm advocating a general proven principle here, not individuals, because I too would be concerned about Ronaldhino's motivation. However, it seems that our owner is maybe not going to go down the route of taking on the top clubs for the best players, so thats that then.

 

Cutting Micheal Owen's pay packet will probably lose him by the way.

Depends on your definition of "Good". I would say Newcastle only have a couple of good players. We have a lot of average players.

 

World class players are the names everyone knows e.g. Ronaldo, Kaka, Messi, etc. Even the top Champions League teams only usually have one player of that quality.

 

As for people thinking shirt sales would pay Ronaldinho's weekly wage, if his wage was £200K and a shirt cost £45 they'd have to sell 4444 shirts every week to cover his wages.

 

I get your point. I agree that we have too many players who aren't good enough ie to win trophies.

 

Therefore we need better ones.

 

They cost a lot of money, these players. Count Ronaldhino out though, I wouldn't pay him wages like that.

 

 

 

 

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Genuine question NE5, do you think if Keegan says to Ashley that he wants Ronaldinho we should pay him those sort of wages?

 

I'd say no.

[NE5]

Genuine question NE5, do you think if Keegan says to Ashley that he wants Ronaldinho we should pay him those sort of wages?

 

I'd say no.

 

I would want to say no, but you should back the manager. So it would be a real dilemna. I actually think that even Keegan - despite his ambition which makes him what he is - would be sensible about that and realise it is bordering on the ridiculous.

 

Hopefully.