Still an Ashleyite? Who's with me?

[NE5]

 

oh dear

 

 

 

Excellent, you can read minds.

 

it would appear you think you can too

 

"He wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings.  He wants to build the club up and put everything in place to make sure we can maintain a high position once we reach it." - mick august 10th 2008

 

cringeworthy stuff.

 

 

[cp40]

 

oh dear

 

 

 

Excellent, you can read minds.

 

it would appear you think you can too

 

"He wants what we want and goes to the games for the same reason as we do, he wants us to win for the pleasure that brings.  He wants to build the club up and put everything in place to make sure we can maintain a high position once we reach it." - mick august 10th 2008

 

cringeworthy stuff.

 

 

 

 

 

A lovers Tiff?

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I think I can see why Ashley has went for the structure he has put in.

 

For me Ashley wants to enjoy NUFC like a fan would or does as well as running the club as a business and if the fan thing is even remotely close, appointing KK seems logical because KK + NUFC = fun. However he obviously doesn't want to run the club himself, so appoints people to look for players and to negotiate deals for him, so he can enjoy the football and have some fun.

 

Nowt wrong with that but it has to be the manager who chooses those people not anyone else and I've always said that.

[Guest WiMag]

I think I can see why Ashley has went for the structure he has put in.

 

For me Ashley wants to enjoy NUFC like a fan would or does as well as running the club as a business and if the fan thing is even remotely close, appointing KK seems logical because KK + NUFC = fun. However he obviously doesn't want to run the club himself, so appoints people to look for players and to negotiate deals for him, so he can enjoy the football and have some fun.

 

Nowt wrong with that but it has to be the manager who chooses those people not anyone else and I've always said that.

 

There's a couple of major business problems with this theory:

 

1 - Its not the manager's money.

2 - The manager doesn't have the time to dedicate to scouting.

3 - Managers get invested in their own selections ... the new guy wants his own players in ... resulting in a clear out & total loss of value.

3 - You have to be able say NO if the player valuation is not right ... consider that our current admin. team may be having discipline in this area which has rarely been a feature of our recent spending.

 

 

[Kitman]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

 

I hope you're being ironic.  Otherwise nobody's entitled to an opinion

 

[madras]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

 

I hope you're being ironic.  Otherwise nobody's entitled to an opinion

 

i like opinion to be based on something.

[Thespence]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers? 

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

 

I hope you're being ironic.  Otherwise nobody's entitled to an opinion

 

i like opinion to be based on something.

 

It is based on what Henry Winter wrote.

[madras]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

 

I hope you're being ironic.  Otherwise nobody's entitled to an opinion

 

i like opinion to be based on something.

 

It is based on what Henry Winter wrote.

have the last couple of days taught you nothing ?

[Incognito]

Ashleys footballing knowledge is the problem here,minimal to say the least.Why would he trust Dennis Wise to have more knowledge of players than Kevin Keegan.The bloke has managed at League 2 level for 5 minutes FFS.Had he allowed Kevin to choose the DoF,this apparent falling out would probably  never have happened.

[madras]

Ashleys footballing knowledge is the problem here,minimal to say the least.Why would he trust Dennis Wise to have more knowledge of players than Kevin Keegan.The bloke has managed at League 2 level for 5 minutes FFS.Had he allowed Kevin to choose the DoF,this apparent falling out would probably  never have happened.

he didn't or he would have appointed wise as manager. they have different jobs and responsibilities.

[Incognito]

Ashleys footballing knowledge is the problem here,minimal to say the least.Why would he trust Dennis Wise to have more knowledge of players than Kevin Keegan.The bloke has managed at League 2 level for 5 minutes FFS.Had he allowed Kevin to choose the DoF,this apparent falling out would probably  never have happened.

he didn't or he would have appointed wise as manager. they have different jobs and responsibilities.

 

My point is that Dennis Wise would have no real clue which players we needed,much as Keegan.Wise had been operating away from top class football,ie Premier League,for as long as Keegan.Keegans advantage is that he has worked at that managerial level,old school,buy and sell the players he wants,for 10 or so years.The highest level Wise has been in a mangerial/administrative role was at Millwall.

[madras]

Ashleys footballing knowledge is the problem here,minimal to say the least.Why would he trust Dennis Wise to have more knowledge of players than Kevin Keegan.The bloke has managed at League 2 level for 5 minutes FFS.Had he allowed Kevin to choose the DoF,this apparent falling out would probably  never have happened.

he didn't or he would have appointed wise as manager. they have different jobs and responsibilities.

 

My point is that Dennis Wise would have no real clue which players we needed,much as Keegan.Wise had been operating away from top class football,ie Premier League,for as long as Keegan.Keegans advantage is that he has worked at that managerial level,old school,buy and sell the players he wants,for 10 or so years.The highest level Wise has been in a mangerial/administrative role was at Millwall.

wise was suppoosedly in charge of bringing kids in,the academy set up and general scouting.

[Chris_R]

Well ... I've taken in everything all through today now, and now I'm left here feeling like I honestly prefer what Ashley and his team want to do.

 

Nothing has pleased me more this season than the performances of the new players we have brought in, particularly those who appear to have been recruited by Ashley's recruitment team. Sunday saw us add two more individuals who further seemed to be brought in by Jimenez et al. and both of whom seemed to be highly rated by their former teams, one of whose leaving practically had his former teams fans in tears. What has made this even more immensely satisfying is the fact that these signings were pretty unheralded and not overly costly or over the top, it felt good to finally unearth some gems of our own for once.

 

If Ashley and his lot really wanted to get rid of more of our older players, who other teams wanted can we really blame him? How many times did we all lament their performances early last season when they were alll absolutely useless? Many a time we all wanted them all out and Ashley was sitting right amongst us, while we were all displaying our disgust at their performances. I'm sure he would have been more than happy to replace them with more of the sort he already brought in, who were already proving to be very succesful buys. Can we balme him for this?

 

Why the hell is Keegan allegedly holding on to the likes of Smith, Barton and Milner anyway? I mean honestly! Owen I can at least understand to some extent, and even then, I would probably still prefer to see what kind of player could be brought in by this team to replace Owen, given the chance to do so.  Milner is an average player who we were offered beautiful money for and it was a no brainer. If Keegan had a problem with this then he's being silly. Smith is just awful and we should have accepted any payment for him straightaway. As for Barton ... I'm sure it took a hell of a lot of convincing for Ashley to bring him here in the first place and it was a huge show of faith for him to do so, and look at what Barton did in return. I think it was harsh of Keegan to demand for Barton to be supported, and the owner should have been allowed to let him move on if he wanted.

 

All in all I really am beginning to struggle to see what exactly I should be mad at Ashley for. I actually like what he was doing and I would have loved to see as many as possible of the old faces move on in return for some younger, fresher and hungrier players in all honesty.

 

Ashley has made one mistake in all of this, and it was in getting the wrong manager in. Not because Keegan is bad or difficult in any way, because I do admire him a whole lot, but because he just wasn't the right person for Ashley's job specifications.

 

Not reading all 8 pages as it's way too late at night, but I broadly agree with you and think you've written a lot of sense there.

 

However the only things I'd say Ashley / Llambias / Wise / Vetere could be blamed for are:

- Telling Keegan he has the final say on transfers then trying to do deals behind his back. That's not on.

- Selling players (Or trying to sell players) without having adequate replacements lined up. Our squad is paper thin already, and the thought of playing through until Christmas without Owen or Barton and nobody in to replace them is quite scary.

 

Of course in response to this, we don't know if deals were done behind Keegan's back and we don't know that if Barton or Owen had gone that replacements wouldn't have been brought in.

[Shearergol]

Ashleys footballing knowledge is the problem here,minimal to say the least.Why would he trust Dennis Wise to have more knowledge of players than Kevin Keegan.The bloke has managed at League 2 level for 5 minutes FFS.Had he allowed Kevin to choose the DoF,this apparent falling out would probably  never have happened.

he didn't or he would have appointed wise as manager. they have different jobs and responsibilities.

 

My point is that Dennis Wise would have no real clue which players we needed,much as Keegan.Wise had been operating away from top class football,ie Premier League,for as long as Keegan.Keegans advantage is that he has worked at that managerial level,old school,buy and sell the players he wants,for 10 or so years.The highest level Wise has been in a mangerial/administrative role was at Millwall.

 

You do realise a lot of clubs have teams working on finding players and negotiating transfers with them don't you? Two good examples are Man United and Arsenal. You do realise that Man United's "transfer team" signed Ronaldo, right?

[Incognito]

Ashleys footballing knowledge is the problem here,minimal to say the least.Why would he trust Dennis Wise to have more knowledge of players than Kevin Keegan.The bloke has managed at League 2 level for 5 minutes FFS.Had he allowed Kevin to choose the DoF,this apparent falling out would probably  never have happened.

he didn't or he would have appointed wise as manager. they have different jobs and responsibilities.

 

My point is that Dennis Wise would have no real clue which players we needed,much as Keegan.Wise had been operating away from top class football,ie Premier League,for as long as Keegan.Keegans advantage is that he has worked at that managerial level,old school,buy and sell the players he wants,for 10 or so years.The highest level Wise has been in a mangerial/administrative role was at Millwall.

wise was suppoosedly in charge of bringing kids in,the academy set up and general scouting.

 

Why though?What abilities or qualifications does he have.Seems more like a case of "it's not what you know..."

[Kitman]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

 

I hope you're being ironic.  Otherwise nobody's entitled to an opinion

 

i like opinion to be based on something.

 

It is based on what Henry Winter wrote.

have the last couple of days taught you nothing ?

 

Henry Winter is actually a class journalist, I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush

[TRon]

I think I can see why Ashley has went for the structure he has put in.

 

For me Ashley wants to enjoy NUFC like a fan would or does as well as running the club as a business and if the fan thing is even remotely close, appointing KK seems logical because KK + NUFC = fun. However he obviously doesn't want to run the club himself, so appoints people to look for players and to negotiate deals for him, so he can enjoy the football and have some fun.

 

Nowt wrong with that but it has to be the manager who chooses those people not anyone else and I've always said that.

 

There's a couple of major business problems with this theory:

 

1 - Its not the manager's money.

2 - The manager doesn't have the time to dedicate to scouting.

3 - Managers get invested in their own selections ... the new guy wants his own players in ... resulting in a clear out & total loss of value.

3 - You have to be able say NO if the player valuation is not right ... consider that our current admin. team may be having discipline in this area which has rarely been a feature of our recent spending.

 

 

 

Bingo - we have a winner. Probably not what people want to read though so best ignore.

[madras]

I keep coming across posts which state that the Manager should have 'full control' over transfers, but in practice no manager is in that position. He has to work with the people who hold the purse strings, and inevitably some players are going to be sold and others are not going to arrive when the manager would prefer something different. That's life.

 

The only boundary that I think should not be crossed is players arriving who the manager explicitly says he doesn't want. But has that happened here? Does anyone seriously think that Keegan said he didn't want Xisco and Wise still went right ahead?

 

I think there's a good chance he wasn't consulted at all about Xisco and Gonzalez.  And I think he's being largely ignored over who he'd like to stay, who he'd like to sign, and who he wants to give new contracts to.  Keegan wants to shape his own squad.  Wise and co think it's none of his business.  That's what this showdown is all about, and this transfer window has brought it all to a head.

based on ?

 

I think that was Henry Winter's take on it, and it makes sense to me.  What else do you think this is about other than who calls the shots over transfers?  

 

So no concrete facts or proof then?  Christ, I hope that none of you lot get called up for jury duty...

 

I hope you're being ironic.  Otherwise nobody's entitled to an opinion

 

i like opinion to be based on something.

 

It is based on what Henry Winter wrote.

have the last couple of days taught you nothing ?

 

Henry Winter is actually a class journalist, I wouldn't tar them all with the same brush

i've read him and he is slightly less worse than the majority. still,like the rest of us,he hasn't really got a clue what was going on but he gets paid to write about it.

[NJS]

I think I can see why Ashley has went for the structure he has put in.

 

For me Ashley wants to enjoy NUFC like a fan would or does as well as running the club as a business and if the fan thing is even remotely close, appointing KK seems logical because KK + NUFC = fun. However he obviously doesn't want to run the club himself, so appoints people to look for players and to negotiate deals for him, so he can enjoy the football and have some fun.

 

Nowt wrong with that but it has to be the manager who chooses those people not anyone else and I've always said that.

 

There's a couple of major business problems with this theory:

 

1 - Its not the manager's money.

2 - The manager doesn't have the time to dedicate to scouting.

3 - Managers get invested in their own selections ... the new guy wants his own players in ... resulting in a clear out & total loss of value.

3 - You have to be able say NO if the player valuation is not right ... consider that our current admin. team may be having discipline in this area which has rarely been a feature of our recent spending.

 

 

 

Doesn't that take away responsibility for results from the manager though?

 

A sacked manager will say "never wanted him" whereas a winner could have the recruiter claiming credit.

 

 

[Dave]

I think it's pretty sad anyone is using this entire farce to turn on anyone without any details coming out, be it Ashley, Wise or anyone else.

 

Don't get me wrong, if Keegan had walked out or been sacked, I was all ready to give Ashley both barrels (because ultimately he's in charge), but as of now we simply don't know who's to blame.

[Kitman]

i've read him and he is slightly less worse than the majority. still,like the rest of us,he hasn't really got a clue what was going on but he gets paid to write about it.

 

I'm guessing he has slightly more sources than you.  Still you're entitled to your opinion 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

I think I can see why Ashley has went for the structure he has put in.

 

For me Ashley wants to enjoy NUFC like a fan would or does as well as running the club as a business and if the fan thing is even remotely close, appointing KK seems logical because KK + NUFC = fun. However he obviously doesn't want to run the club himself, so appoints people to look for players and to negotiate deals for him, so he can enjoy the football and have some fun.

 

Nowt wrong with that but it has to be the manager who chooses those people not anyone else and I've always said that.

 

There's a couple of major business problems with this theory:

 

1 - Its not the manager's money.

2 - The manager doesn't have the time to dedicate to scouting.

3 - Managers get invested in their own selections ... the new guy wants his own players in ... resulting in a clear out & total loss of value.

3 - You have to be able say NO if the player valuation is not right ... consider that our current admin. team may be having discipline in this area which has rarely been a feature of our recent spending.

 

 

 

Bingo - we have a winner. Probably not what people want to read though so best ignore.

 

Missed one problem.

 

If the manager picks his team of Wise etc then there is a temptation to get a yes man - think Mick Wadsworth.

 

I'm a big believer in healthy conflict, as long as it is a fair and open forum where nothing personal gets in the way of a good decision being reached. Everyone needs questioned, and this often brings the best results out of people.

[Cronky]

Keegan has to go. Ultimately, Ashley might have to sell up and go as well, because there will be so much hostility towards him. But if anyone thinks that normal service can resume after this fiasco, then they're kidding themselves. What decent player, who has other options, is going to join a club where there's clear tension between owner and manager and any second the manager might storm off.

 

Such a public airing of dirty linen is making the club look like a shambles, and Keegan is to blame. He either had to sort it out privately, or quit. He probably thinks it's clever to manipulate the owner by getting the fans on his side like this, and a lot of people seem to agree. But what he's actually doing is making the place look like a ship without a rudder.

[Guest northwestmag1892]

i've read him and he is slightly less worse than the majority. still,like the rest of us,he hasn't really got a clue what was going on but he gets paid to write about it.

 

I'm guessing he has slightly more sources than you.  Still you're entitled to your opinion 

 

He will have more sources, for sure. However Winter, like them all, has a massive ego as is demonstrated by all of these London based hacks week in week out on what was Jimmy Hill's Sports Supplement...

[Dave]

Keegan has to go. Ultimately, Ashley might have to sell up and go as well, because there will be so much hostility towards him. But if anyone thinks that normal service can resume after this fiasco, then they're kidding themselves. What decent player, who has other options, is going to join a club where there's clear tension between owner and manager and any second the manager might storm off.

 

Such a public airing of dirty linen is making the club look like a shambles, and Keegan is to blame. He either had to sort it out privately, or quit. He probably thinks it's clever to manipulate the owner by getting the fans on his side like this, and a lot of people seem to agree. But what he's actually doing is making the place look like a ship without a rudder.