RIP DOF TBH?

[Dave]

So Spurs have realised it's a waste of time and fucked off their oh-so fantastic system, getting in a manager who's said outright 'I could not work with someone bringing in players above me'.

 

Anyone still have anything positive to say about the director of football way of doing things? I see three clubs who have used it this season:

 

Newcastle United: manager walked out, fans react, owner ends up feeling he has to sell the club. No continuity. Results are shit.

Tottenham Hotspur: manager sacked, DOF sacked, club has to completely change the club structure to get the manager they want. No continuity. Results are shit.

West Ham United: manager walked out, man with fuck all experience brought in on a pretty big gamble. No continuity. Results are very mixed.

 

Can the director of football system possibly work in this country? Because right now I just see a whole load of shit that comes with it.

[Skirge]

Lets hope it is the death of the idea at least at our club, would love to see the SMB try it though.

[WhatTheFunk]

 

ffs tbh

[Tooj]

Stoke use it as well Dave.

[Parky]

We have spent around £175m on new players over the last 3 years. The purchasing of players is a critical aspect of our Club and, given our current position, it is essential that we go into the January transfer window with absolute confidence in the advice being offered to the Board. Following a meeting of the Directors and a full review of our football management structure, I can also inform you that Damien Comolli has left the Club with immediate effect. Damien will not be directly replaced.

 

In my opinion, and with the benefit that comes with running our Club with and without a Sporting Director in the past seven years, the successful management of a football club is not about structures or job titles. As in most businessess, it's about people: their personal qualities, their knowledge, their experience, their relationships, communication skills, interaction with colleagues, leadership and, of course, their ability.

 

In Harry, we are also accepting with his appointment that now is the right time for us to move back to a more traditional style of football management at our Club. one which we believe will be capable of initiating our climb back up the Premier League table......  [Ne5/]

[thomas]

Someone will try it again and they might get it right.  We sure as fuck didn't.  Spurs looked to at the beginning with 5th and 5th under Jol with one but it went up shit creek when Arnesen and Jol were replaced by lesser counterparts.

 

 

Parkys bolded bit sum up what I was going to put in the rest of this post.

[fredbob]

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers?

 

I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

[Parky]

Someone will try it again and they might get it right.  We sure as fuck didn't.  Spurs looked to at the beginning with 5th and 5th under Jol with one but it went up shit creek when Arnesen and Jol were replaced by lesser counterparts.

 

 

Parkys bolded bit sum up what I was going to put in the rest of this post.

 

My feeling is that it is very difficult in the PL without clear accountability, the pressure on resources (money and personnel)  is so high and unforgiving.  In Spain or whatever you might muddle through (most games for the top sides are strolls in the park) and you have time to hone and iron things out...In the PL every tactical or operational blunder seems to be punished very quickly.

[Guest elbee909]

Managers get it wrong all the time.  No-one cries for the 'manager of a football club' structure to be axed as a result.

[Parky]

Managers get it wrong all the time.  No-one cries for the 'manager of a football club' structure to be axed as a result.

 

Not sure what you're saying.

 

The core of the debate is about group decision making against one man laying out and pursuing his own singular vision (see Wenger, KK, Red nose).

 

The DOF system works at clubs in Europe also cause the general culture is more tuned to group decision making.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers?

 

I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

 

It is just a coincidence. The DOF system wouldn't suddenly turn Joe Kinnear into a tactical genius which is arguably his biggest weakness and thus a big area preventing him from being a really good manager would it whereas it would devalue a manager like Kevin Keegan or Harry Redknapp whose biggest strengths are in spotting talent or wheeling and dealing in the transfer market. I don't think the lack of quality English or British managers is down to there being not so many DOF style setups in our game nor do I believe such systems make our foreign counterparts any better. Both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are on record saying the English traditional system is the best and has made them far better managers.

 

As to why it doesn't work in this country, that's a good question.

[Parky]

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers?

 

I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

 

It is just a coincidence. The DOF system wouldn't suddenly turn Joe Kinnear into a tactical genius which is arguably his biggest weakness and thus a big area preventing him from being a really good manager would it whereas it would devalue a manager like Kevin Keegan or Harry Redknapp whose biggest strengths are in spotting talent or wheeling and dealing in the transfer market. I don't think the lack of quality English or British managers is down to there being not so many DOF style setups in our game nor do I believe such systems make our foreign counterparts any better. Both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are on record saying the English traditional system is the best and has made them far better managers.

 

As to why it doesn't work in this country, that's a good question.

 

Which I've already answered. 

[Guest elbee909]

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers?

 

I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

 

It is just a coincidence. The DOF system wouldn't suddenly turn Joe Kinnear into a tactical genius which is arguably his biggest weakness and thus a big area preventing him from being a really good manager would it whereas it would devalue a manager like Kevin Keegan or Harry Redknapp whose biggest strengths are in spotting talent or wheeling and dealing in the transfer market. I don't think the lack of quality English or British managers is down to there being not so many DOF style setups in our game nor do I believe such systems make our foreign counterparts any better. Both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are on record saying the English traditional system is the best and has made them far better managers.

 

As to why it doesn't work in this country, that's a good question.

 

Which I've already answered. 

 

I just don't think vague sweeping generalisations are the answer 

[Guest The Toon Army from farawa]

To me if you want a DoF then it will only work if the manager/head coach work together.

 

The manager selects the players he wants and the Dof gets them. If he can't get them he discusses, with the manager alternatives.

 

The main point is that they work together and not the DoF buying and selling players without the managewrs approval.

 

Both with us and Spuds this didn't happen and that's why it didn't work.

[fredbob]

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers?

 

I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

 

It is just a coincidence. The DOF system wouldn't suddenly turn Joe Kinnear into a tactical genius which is arguably his biggest weakness and thus a big area preventing him from being a really good manager would it whereas it would devalue a manager like Kevin Keegan or Harry Redknapp whose biggest strengths are in spotting talent or wheeling and dealing in the transfer market. I don't think the lack of quality English or British managers is down to there being not so many DOF style setups in our game nor do I believe such systems make our foreign counterparts any better. Both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are on record saying the English traditional system is the best and has made them far better managers.

 

As to why it doesn't work in this country, that's a good question.

 

This is true but i suppose i'm delving more into the psyche of an english manager. Is the reason the DOF system not working in England becasue the managers are technically incompentent and too arrogant about there own skill as a manager. English managers are 10 years behind the contintal coutnerpart in my opinion. When the oney dries up, the DOF system will be strife throuought the english game in my opinion.

 

For what its worth Wenger himself said he wanted a DOF, a certain Glen Roeder was touted for the job.

[tmonkey]

The system worked for Spurs until they sold their key players on top of shipping out half the squad.

 

If anything, I think Spurs' failure is proof that you dont sell your best players on top of making wholesale changes to the squad and expect things to pick up as they left off. The good old "if it's not broke, dont fix it" rule.

[fredbob]

Someone will try it again and they might get it right.  We sure as f*** didn't.  Spurs looked to at the beginning with 5th and 5th under Jol with one but it went up s*** creek when Arnesen and Jol were replaced by lesser counterparts.

 

 

Parkys bolded bit sum up what I was going to put in the rest of this post.

 

My feeling is that it is very difficult in the PL without clear accountability, the pressure on resources (money and personnel)  is so high and unforgiving.  In Spain or whatever you might muddle through (most games for the top sides are strolls in the park) and you have time to hone and iron things out...In the PL every tactical or operational blunder seems to be punished very quickly.

 

What do you mean when you say "most games for the top sides are strolls in the park"?

 

Many foreign players have said how only the top 4 clubs in england can play football whereas the same isnt true in other countries and every game is more difficult.

[80]

I only expect it not to fail if a pre-fab system is imported from the continent. Arnesen-Jol was an example of this.

[Dave]

I only expect it not to fail if a pre-fab system is imported from the continent. Arnesen-Jol was an example of this.

 

And the complete antithesis of Keegan-Wise.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

It begs the question why doesnt it work in this country? And is it just a coincidence that as a coutnry we happen to have so many poor english managers?

 

I personally dont think they are mutually exclusive at all.

 

It is just a coincidence. The DOF system wouldn't suddenly turn Joe Kinnear into a tactical genius which is arguably his biggest weakness and thus a big area preventing him from being a really good manager would it whereas it would devalue a manager like Kevin Keegan or Harry Redknapp whose biggest strengths are in spotting talent or wheeling and dealing in the transfer market. I don't think the lack of quality English or British managers is down to there being not so many DOF style setups in our game nor do I believe such systems make our foreign counterparts any better. Both Arsene Wenger and Rafa Benitez are on record saying the English traditional system is the best and has made them far better managers.

 

As to why it doesn't work in this country, that's a good question.

 

This is true but i suppose i'm delving more into the psyche of an english manager. Is the reason the DOF system not working in England becasue the managers are technically incompentent and too arrogant about there own skill as a manager. English managers are 10 years behind the contintal coutnerpart in my opinion. When the oney dries up, the DOF system will be strife throuought the english game in my opinion.

 

For what its worth Wenger himself said he wanted a DOF, a certain Glen Roeder was touted for the job.

 

The European game is actually behind the times and not the English game which gave the game this 'continental setup' ironically. Only we've moved on whereas the vast majority of the wider game haven't when it comes to the setup of clubs and how they are ran. From the formation of the game here in England right up to the late 50s even for many clubs, a DOF style set-up was common place in our game.

 

Clubs were ran by a committee board made up of the trainer, the medical team and the secretary/administrator who on behalf of the chairman or owner (and of course the fans) ran the club, bought and sold players and trained and selected the players with the chairman effectively the person who signed the cheques and entertained the guests. The trainer was in effect the head coach, the secretary or administrator effectively the director of football, the medical team effectively the dietitian etc. That's how every club was ran up until clubs decided to hand more power to the trainer whose job went from training and selecting players to doing that but also buying and selling and generally having much more of a say on all matters related to the first team.

 

And the general consensus behind this move that meant trainers become managers at the time was that the trainers were more qualified than a secretary or administrator in spotting talent, identifying which players needed to be retained and which players needed moved on and of course and significantly, their worth to the clubs.

 

Brought about because of the changes in player wages. With players suddenly allowed to command their own price and a whole new market opening up which we now know as the transfer market chairman and owners stopped trusting their secretaries and administrators. So the power was handed to the manager in such matters.

 

Chairmen and committee boards used to get all the stick when things went wrong at clubs, with trainers absolved of most blame. Indeed when our first ever manager who at the time was the country's first ever player manager (Andy Cunningham) took us down, it wasn't him who fans vented their anger at but the board. Town hall meetings were held by fans to gather support to oust the then board and the Chronicle believe it or not were scathing in their attack of the board. Sound familiar?

 

This system of trainer or head coach under a secretary/administrator or DOF is slowly coming back into our game in the main due to the growing foreign influence at board room level more than anything else and of course the odd English clueless total none footballing man owning the odd club...

 

As for the English manager being arrogant or too incompetent to work with such setups, that's a load of tosh to be frank. There is a reason why the English Premier League has fewer managerial casualties and fewer squad/player turnovers meaning more continuity and consistency and wastes less money in transfers and fees than its foreign counterparts and that reason is because the vast majority of managers are allowed to buy and sell players and run their clubs with total control.

 

Spurs have just said they have spent £175m in 3 years which is an incredible figure along the same lines of what Chelsea have spent and for what? What have they achieved? I'm sure if Martin Jol was allowed to spend that money on the players he wanted and the roles he wanted addressed they wouldn't be looking at their 3rd manager in a year.

 

Ironically a DOF style setup is meant to provide stability and give continuity to a club yet at every club where such a setup exists those clubs lack both, none more so than our own.

 

Does it work in Europe? Of course it works in Europe but then it worked in England for many many years too. Does the traditional manager role work? Absolutely, it brought unprecedented success for our clubs in Europe since it was adopted and continues to keep our game ahead of others to the point where all your best managers and not so best managers look at what Alex Ferguson, Benitez or Wenger have (total control) with envy. It also keeps our managers here too. I'm sure in time if foreign leagues adopted the manager concept we have had in place for years, their leagues and clubs and game would evolve and bring more success too.

 

They should give it a try sometime.

[Parky]

I only expect it not to fail if a pre-fab system is imported from the continent. Arnesen-Jol was an example of this.

 

Very good point.

[Parky]

Someone will try it again and they might get it right.  We sure as f*** didn't.  Spurs looked to at the beginning with 5th and 5th under Jol with one but it went up s*** creek when Arnesen and Jol were replaced by lesser counterparts.

 

 

Parkys bolded bit sum up what I was going to put in the rest of this post.

 

My feeling is that it is very difficult in the PL without clear accountability, the pressure on resources (money and personnel)  is so high and unforgiving.  In Spain or whatever you might muddle through (most games for the top sides are strolls in the park) and you have time to hone and iron things out...In the PL every tactical or operational blunder seems to be punished very quickly.

 

What do you mean when you say "most games for the top sides are strolls in the park"?

 

Many foreign players have said how only the top 4 clubs in england can play football whereas the same isnt true in other countries and every game is more difficult.

 

 

For me there is far less pressure and intensity currently in other Euro leagues compared to the PL. In the last 4/5 years the strength in depth aided by the importing of most of the best  players from around the globe IMO has made the PL very unforgiving to any system that isn't working well.

[James]

There cetainly remains one DoF system in England that seems to be working (to an extent).

 

Arnesen at Chelsea. With a clearly defined focus on youth, he has been able to draw in a lot of youth talent without stepping on toes when it comes to first team affairs.

 

Shame it seems to be at a club where the pressures are to only select established players.

 

I'd be all in favour of the FA capping squad sizes at 20 and telling clubs that any additional players must be under-25s with less than 50 first team appearances.

[madras]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

[Mowen]

There cetainly remains one DoF system in England that seems to be working (to an extent).

 

Arnesen at Chelsea. With a clearly defined focus on youth, he has been able to draw in a lot of youth talent without stepping on toes when it comes to first team affairs.

 

Shame it seems to be at a club where the pressures are to only select established players.

 

I'd be all in favour of the FA capping squad sizes at 20 and telling clubs that any additional players must be under-25s with less than 50 first team appearances.

 

What a ridiculous idea, wouldn't this mean that teams weren't keen to ever get their youngsters past 50 appearances? You wouldn't see them getting as many substitute outings surely.