RIP DOF TBH?

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

They've signed some quality players since Ramos has been there and there's been some envious eyes from our supporters in the process, Woodgate, Modric, Bentley, Corluka, Hutton, Pavlychenko, Dos Santos and Gomes are all of a decent standard and most people would have liked them here, Ramos just didn't look like inspiring them or getting the best out of what is a quality squad of players.

 

The DOF only really worked at Spurs when Arnsen & Jol were working together because they both trusted each other. The benefits of that partnership helped them get a couple of 5th place's. When Arnsen first arrived at Spurs it was not working out because him & Jacky Santini could not work together.

 

Agreed, and this speaks volumes really. It's pretty much what i'm saying. Santini was an established manager, he'd done his own thing with Lyon and then the French national team. He'd been a manager for twenty years or so before joining the set-up at Tottenham. Makes you wonder why they appoint such people? Granted, he was negative as f*** and struggled with the language, but still.

 

Enter Jol; new, cultured. Only other history of being a manager was with Dutch amateur teams and lower-division sides. But generally regarded as a very good coach and motivator. There you go, the system clicks. Most successful period in the clubs history, with a manager with essentially no history.

 

Yes... he left after disagreements with the 'DOF', who was by that point Comolli. It worked with Jol and Arnesen. I know my arguments is based around the idea that you've got to appoint the right manager, but i appreciate it works both ways, you need the right DOF too.

 

It can work and it has worked. If you appoint the right people.

 

I thought he was sacked because Spurs were f***** terrible at the start of last season. In fact, I'm sure this is the case as they had Ramos lined up.

[The College Dropout]

They've already got Huddlestone and Zakora that can sit deep in midfield and most thought Modric would do the job when he came in in a similar way to the job Carrick done when he was there, they need someone else down the left as I don't think Lennon is that good on the opposite side but I'd have bought a new left back and played Bale on the wing where I think he's better off, Corluka's a quality centre back too and I think he was brought in because of the problems with fitness Ledley King has.

 

Not many clubs fill every single position that needs filling in one transfer window but with the players they have got Spurs should be much higher than they are at the moment, that is down to Ramos and he's lost his job because of it.

 

They are both s*** at defending. Huddlestone is getting worse by the year & Zakora has never impressed. First window watch Arry go & sign a 6ft+ african ball winner. Pint pot Modric could not control a Premier League game from deep, he would be about as good as Veron was.

 

 

Diarra might do.

 

Interesting to see what happens to Defoe.

[fredbob]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

How quickly this is forgotten.

 

Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'?

 

I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option....

 

 

 

Milne wasn't really a DOF, he was more of a scout. Sir Bobby was in full control of buying and selling and had no-one but the chairman to report to.

 

If people want to be pedantic, then we won 4 league titles under a DOF (Frank Watt) and numerous FA Cups. Lets not try and rewrite history here.

 

What now? Im not sure that was relevant to my post. All Im saying is that the stick that people are beating the currents system with and deriding it as a complete failure is the same stick that we didnt use to beat the old system when they did the EXACT same thing. i.e undermine the manager...

 

It just seems that people are assuming that the DoF will inevitably interefre and undermine the manager when in actual fact theres no guarantuee that a chairmen wont do the exact same thing. Something we've witnessed before.

 

 

[Yorkie]

They've signed some quality players since Ramos has been there and there's been some envious eyes from our supporters in the process, Woodgate, Modric, Bentley, Corluka, Hutton, Pavlychenko, Dos Santos and Gomes are all of a decent standard and most people would have liked them here, Ramos just didn't look like inspiring them or getting the best out of what is a quality squad of players.

 

The DOF only really worked at Spurs when Arnsen & Jol were working together because they both trusted each other. The benefits of that partnership helped them get a couple of 5th place's. When Arnsen first arrived at Spurs it was not working out because him & Jacky Santini could not work together.

 

Agreed, and this speaks volumes really. It's pretty much what i'm saying. Santini was an established manager, he'd done his own thing with Lyon and then the French national team. He'd been a manager for twenty years or so before joining the set-up at Tottenham. Makes you wonder why they appoint such people? Granted, he was negative as f*** and struggled with the language, but still.

 

Enter Jol; new, cultured. Only other history of being a manager was with Dutch amateur teams and lower-division sides. But generally regarded as a very good coach and motivator. There you go, the system clicks. Most successful period in the clubs history, with a manager with essentially no history.

 

Yes... he left after disagreements with the 'DOF', who was by that point Comolli. It worked with Jol and Arnesen. I know my arguments is based around the idea that you've got to appoint the right manager, but i appreciate it works both ways, you need the right DOF too.

 

It can work and it has worked. If you appoint the right people.

 

I thought he was sacked because Spurs were f***** terrible at the start of last season. In fact, I'm sure this is the case as they had Ramos lined up.

 

OK, fine. Same reason as Ramos leaving then. Thanks to your pedantry my general point was qualified further.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

How quickly this is forgotten.

 

Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'?

 

I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option....

 

 

 

Milne wasn't really a DOF, he was more of a scout. Sir Bobby was in full control of buying and selling and had no-one but the chairman to report to.

 

If people want to be pedantic, then we won 4 league titles under a DOF (Frank Watt) and numerous FA Cups. Lets not try and rewrite history here.

 

Who sold Gary Speed?

 

 

Irrelevant to the actual topic at hand. Sir Bobby was very much the manager who reported to no-one but the chairman or board of directors. Every position alongside Sir Bobby whether it be Milne as the so-called DOF or Wadsworth the number 2 was defined by Sir Bobby with the people to fill those positions chosen by him and him only. It was a traditional set-up and in no way shape or form even remotely similar to the set-up that exists at the club today which Sir Bobby has said himself several times now when commenting on the issues of a DOF type setup.

[Wullie]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

[Yorkie]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

So it's more the personnel than the system, then.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

How quickly this is forgotten.

 

Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'?

 

I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option....

 

 

 

Milne wasn't really a DOF, he was more of a scout. Sir Bobby was in full control of buying and selling and had no-one but the chairman to report to.

 

If people want to be pedantic, then we won 4 league titles under a DOF (Frank Watt) and numerous FA Cups. Lets not try and rewrite history here.

 

What now? Im not sure that was relevant to my post. All Im saying is that the stick that people are beating the currents system with and deriding it as a complete failure is the same stick that we didnt use to beat the old system when they did the EXACT same thing. i.e undermine the manager...

 

It just seems that people are assuming that the DoF will inevitably interefre and undermine the manager when in actual fact theres no guarantuee that a chairmen wont do the exact same thing. Something we've witnessed before.

 

What are you talking about? The old system didn't undermine the manager, the chairman did which is entirely different as he operated outside of the system Sir Bobby had put in place (himself I might add) and fans gave FS a ton of stick over that, far more than the stick Wise et al received, far more. Had Ashley himself undermined KK and not the set-up HE created no-one would be criticising the DOF setup. Indeed had they themselves not undermined KK this wouldn't even be an issue. You're barking up the wrong tree as people aren't assuming a DOF will inevitably interfere with the manager, not in regards to our own case anyway because it is a fact that Dennis Wise et al actually did undermine the manager hence the criticism.

[Baggio]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

Spurs needed a striker though, Mido was as good as gone and that left them with Keane, Defoe and Berbatov, you can't go into a season with only 3 first team strikers on your books.

 

They also signed Bale who was their first choice left winger until he got injured.

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

Spurs needed a striker though, Mido was as good as gone and that left them with Keane, Defoe and Berbatov, you can't go into a season with only 3 first team strikers on your books.

 

They also signed Bale who was their first choice left winger until he got injured.

People generally laugh at the Bent signing because of the cost. And really clubs who aren't getting CL revenues shouldn't spend that much on a 3rd/4th choice striker.

[fredbob]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

How quickly this is forgotten.

 

Theres 2 things that people seem to refuse to answer - what actually went on behind the scenes at this club? And whats the difference with the 'DOF signing players over the managers head with no apprent reason' (not my view of things) or a chairmen 'signing a player over the managers head with no apprent reason'?

 

I'm very confident that we've experinced both sitautions yet one system is derided for this behaviour and the other is lauded as our saviour and the only option....

 

 

 

Milne wasn't really a DOF, he was more of a scout. Sir Bobby was in full control of buying and selling and had no-one but the chairman to report to.

 

If people want to be pedantic, then we won 4 league titles under a DOF (Frank Watt) and numerous FA Cups. Lets not try and rewrite history here.

 

What now? Im not sure that was relevant to my post. All Im saying is that the stick that people are beating the currents system with and deriding it as a complete failure is the same stick that we didnt use to beat the old system when they did the EXACT same thing. i.e undermine the manager...

 

It just seems that people are assuming that the DoF will inevitably interefre and undermine the manager when in actual fact theres no guarantuee that a chairmen wont do the exact same thing. Something we've witnessed before.

 

What are you talking about? The old system didn't undermine the manager, the chairman did which is entirely different as he operated outside of the system Sir Bobby had put in place (himself I might add) and fans gave FS a ton of stick over that, far more than the stick Wise et al received, far more. Had Ashley himself undermined KK and not the set-up HE created no-one would be criticising the DOF setup. Indeed had they themselves not undermined KK this wouldn't even be an issue. You're barking up the wrong tree as people aren't assuming a DOF will inevitably interfere with the manager, not in regards to our own case anyway because it is a fact that Dennis Wise et al actually did undermine the manager hence the criticism.

 

Ok - your probably right, Im not even sure what we're both arguing about now. I think its something to do with our respective definitions of system.

 

Never mind.

[Wullie]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

Spurs needed a striker though, Mido was as good as gone and that left them with Keane, Defoe and Berbatov, you can't go into a season with only 3 first team strikers on your books.

 

They also signed Bale who was their first choice left winger until he got injured.

 

When you've got three top class strikers like them, not one of them prone to injury, spunking £16m on another one who's not as good as any of them is idiocy.

[Robster]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

So it's more the personnel than the system, then.

 

Not if the DOF has authority over the team Manager and doesnt listen to what is being suggested is best for the team by the Manager. On that basis its both the personnel and the system.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Sir Bobby said the true role of any DOF should be to act as an independent reviewer and assess the needs of the playing squad and then draw up a plan of action along with the manager to strengthen the playing squad wherever needed, with the manager having the final say of course.

 

At Newcastle and now Spurs that obviously never happened for whatever reason and therefore both systems have completely failed. Spurs have since chosen to render their system obsolete, removing it entirely and the people too. Newcastle rendered the manager's position obsolete by sticking with the setup with KK himself removing the role entirely by leaving which the club haven't filled and won't do so until new people come in and take over. Kinnear is the caretaker only and not the manager really.

 

[Mowen]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

It started because they're a selling club, who let their best players go. They've never got anywhere near the heights they hit when they still had Carrick. I know they still got 5th the next season, but they weren't in the same class they were the year before and kept going downhill the following season.

[Parky]

Spurs' malaise didn't start this summer, it started last year when Comolli started taking the piss and buying players they didn't need (Darren Bent) instead of those they did (solidity in midfield, a real left winger) then he did the same this summer - for a bloke with his supposed football knowledge, he seems to just buy whoever is that month's particular flash in the pan.

 

So it's more the personnel than the system, then.

 

It's also about the football culture in the PL where most managers (bar 4/5)are immediatedly under pressure if they lose 4/5 games.

[Parky]

Sir Bobby said the true role of any DOF should be to act as an independent reviewer and assess the needs of the playing squad and then draw up a plan of action along with the manager to strengthen the playing squad wherever needed, with the manager having the final say of course.

 

At Newcastle and now Spurs that obviously never happened for whatever reason and therefore both systems have completely failed. Spurs have since chosen to render their system obsolete, removing it entirely and the people too. Newcastle rendered the manager's position obsolete by sticking with the setup with KK himself removing the role entirely by leaving which the club haven't filled and won't do so until new people come in and take over. Kinnear is the caretaker only and not the manager really.

 

 

 

The DOF more often than not is an exrta cog - second guessing the manager and often siding with the board when things go wrong. The immediacy with which this miscommunication translates to performances and strategic decisions is exacerbated by the intense pressure PL clubs are under. Only under very special conditions or long term relationships can it hope to work and do what it promises which is to take some of the pressure off the manager.

[Bad Mongo]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

But before he'd had any impact on anything.

[madras]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

But before he'd had any impact on anything.

did milne have any effect on anything.

 

thats my whole point. each DOF has a differing remit from club to club. it may not be the role that is wrong but the personnel or the remit.

[Robster]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

But before he'd had any impact on anything.

did milne have any effect on anything.

 

thats my whole point. each DOF has a differing remit from club to club. it may not be the role that is wrong but the personnel or the remit.

 

Surely right there lies the problem. If no one can put a specific handle on what a DOF does and it can differ whichever club employs this person, then I think that lends itself to confusion from the outset.

A person gets a job as DOF at club A and then if he gets a job as DOF at club B but is told his role is different, I cant see how that just isnt going to cause problems because we all get into habits in their job and get used to being able to do certain things - its always difficult adapting to different criteria in a new job

 

 

 

[Parky]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

But before he'd had any impact on anything.

did milne have any effect on anything.

 

thats my whole point. each DOF has a differing remit from club to club. it may not be the role that is wrong but the personnel or the remit.

 

Surely right there lies the problem. If no one can put a specific handle on what a DOF does and it can differ whichever club employs this person, then I think that lends itself to confusion from the outset.

A person gets a job as DOF at club A and then if he gets a job as DOF at club B but is told his role is different, I cant see how that just isnt going to cause problems because we all get into habits in their job and get used to being able to do certain things - its always difficult adapting to different criteria in a new job

 

 

 

 

Benitez himself says he prefers the English system.

[ChezGiven]

Managers get it wrong all the time.  No-one cries for the 'manager of a football club' structure to be axed as a result.

 

Not sure what you're saying.

 

The core of the debate is about group decision making against one man laying out and pursuing his own singular vision (see Wenger, KK, Red nose).

 

The DOF system works at clubs in Europe also cause the general culture is more tuned to group decision making.

 

I agree but very few people in the UK will have a clue what you mean by that. I was thinking about this today and that about sums it up.

[ChezGiven]

NUFC's best spell of late came with a DOF in place

 

But before he'd had any impact on anything.

did milne have any effect on anything.

 

thats my whole point. each DOF has a differing remit from club to club. it may not be the role that is wrong but the personnel or the remit.

 

Surely right there lies the problem. If no one can put a specific handle on what a DOF does and it can differ whichever club employs this person, then I think that lends itself to confusion from the outset.

A person gets a job as DOF at club A and then if he gets a job as DOF at club B but is told his role is different, I cant see how that just isnt going to cause problems because we all get into habits in their job and get used to being able to do certain things - its always difficult adapting to different criteria in a new job

 

 

In low-performance jobs, possibly.

[Martin Lol]

Spurs' failure to get the best out of the DoF system was ultimately down the individuals, not the system.

 

There was too much of 'who is available' and not enough 'who do we need', the lack of a defensive MF being the obvious shout, but another striker and another CD who have the confidence of the coach were others.  Comolli bought Rocha, Ramos didnt rate Rocha, Redknapp (apparently) does rate him.  It's obvious that the wheels will fall off if the DoF buys a player and the coach won't play him. 

 

Levy isn't exempt from criticism either.  Quibbling over £2m for Arshavin when Keane was going/gone was lunacy though he can't be criticised much regarding Berbatov.  Up to transfer deadline day, Manu's offer was £20m.  It went up to £30.75m but Comolli had let slip the options they had to replace Berbatov.  So, after trying to sign Kevin Doyle from Reading at 10.30pm to replace Berbatov(!), Spurs had no option but to take Campbell on loan.  Comolli was a dead man walking from the end of the window.

 

As Baggio said, both Keane and Berbatov had said they wanted away, Berbatov even saying that he wouldn't try in some matches.  They both had to go, simple as that.  Spurs' big mistake was not replacing either of them. 

 

Redknapp now has total control, which is probably best whilst Spurs are in the mess they're in, Bond in, Sherwood probably, Les Ferdinand possibly, he does seem to be getting on with it.  Also being suggested that he'll have a pot of £20m plus the Berbatov and Keane money with Diarra and Defoe the obvious targets.

[TRon]

Whatever the merits or pitfalls of the DoF system, the fact that it has failed with both Spurs and Newcastle means the debate is over in this country. Spurs have ditched it, once our club gets a new buyer, I think ours will go the same way.

 

End of.