Let's talk about passports and that. What does 'foreign' REALLY mean?

[Guest]

Same applies for Great Britain & N.Ireland.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

No matter how you slice it, O'Neill is simply not British.

 

Northern Ireland is not Britain, as a mere glance at any UK passport will reveal: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland."

 

If it wasn't part of Britain, he wouldn't get a British passport - and that is what he will have.

Also, because Scotland(which actually has MORE independent powers than N.I.- Tax-raising etc )  is classed as being at least as devolved as NI, are you then saying that SAF is 'not British'?

He(and Alex Salmond) might argue that he WASN'T, but by your Passport definition, he IS British because Scotland is NOT mentioned as being a separate country..

 

I still maintain that O'Neill is technically British, even though he himself might deny that...

As Wacko says, if he gets an Irish Passport , then he becomes Irish and therefore, technically foreign.

 

Even the passport office get confused!

 

British citizens

Anyone who is a British citizen is entitled to apply for a British passport.

 

On January 1 1983, anyone who was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies on December 31 1982, and had the right of abode* in the UK, became a British citizen.

 

* NB There may be individuals who have the right to live in the UK but will not have the right of abode in the UK as defined by the Immigration Act 1971, and will not therefore become British citizens – see below

 

That includes people who

 

were born in the United Kingdom;

were born in a British colony and had the right of abode in the UK (Those born in a British colony and did not have the right of abode in the UK will not become British citizens)

have been naturalised in the United Kingdom;

had registered as a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies; or

could prove legitimate descent from a father* who one of the above conditions applied to. Before the introduction of the British Nationality Act 1981, a person could not claim nationality from his or her mother.

 

I also thought that Great Britain referred t England, Scotland, Wales - ie the big (great) Island. The United Kingdom is Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

I don't recall ever hearing how you refer to someone from the UK, I guess they would be British (i.e. from Great and 'Little' Britain) but not a Great Briton

[OzzieMandias]

A citizen of the United Kingdom can be British, or (Northern) Irish, or whatever you call people from the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man. There's no one term for everyone.

[OzzieMandias]

Same applies for Great Britain & N.Ireland.

 

Yep, they are one country called the United Kingdom, not all of whose citizens are British.

[Yorkie]

At the thread title.

[Guest]

[James]

[OzzieMandias]

It's more talk about who's "foreign", really.

[wacko]

A mate of mine is from Norn Iron, and was technically British, but being a Catholic, he got himself an Irish passport as soon as he could when it became a lot easier a few years back.

 

No, he wasn't technically British. He was technically a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Sorry, you're quite right. But now he's Irish (always was in his head).

 

Drifting ever further off topic, but can anyone from N. Ireland get an Irish passport, or is it a matter of ancestry/religion?

I'm afraid I haven't got a clue how Ciaran was entitled to an Irish passport. I don't imagine being Catholic was enough.

[merlin]

Last word on this - if you are travelling into many foreign countries(including Australia & Malaysia) you have to complete an Arrivals Form for the Immigration authorities ; on this form, it asks you to enter the country of your nationality 'AS IT STATES ON YOUR PASSPORT'.... this means that you have to put in 'BRITISH CITIZEN'

if you have a UK Passport, so O'Neill and Fergie would have to put that down on the form..therefore, they must be British UNLESS somehow NI Citizens now have something different in their passports which I doubt.

[OzzieMandias]

I hardly think the "last word" on whether someone from Northern Ireland is "British" or not rests with the Malaysian immigration authorities.

 

As friends of mine from Northern Ireland used to say: Wise up!

[thomas]

In the discussion of footballing mentality I would think the nations N. Ireland, Ireland, Scotland and Wales would fall under the umbrella of "domestic" while Spain, Italy, France, Netherlands, Portugal et al, would be "foreign".  Granted there's differences on the various "domestic" nations, but as a whole they're remarkably similar when compared to the "foreign" tag. 

 

But then I'm treating the argument as an approach to football or footballing mentality and not birthplace so ...

[80]

A mate of mine is from Norn Iron, and was technically British, but being a Catholic, he got himself an Irish passport as soon as he could when it became a lot easier a few years back.

 

No, he wasn't technically British. He was technically a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

But Rep of ireland northern ireland and Great Britain are all in the British Isles.

 

Yep. But that's geography, not politics/citizenship. Like being in Europe isn't the same as being in the European Union.

 

God, can't believe I'm getting involved in this...

 

If we ('Brits') are all simply citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, presumably the people of Great Britain aren't any more 'British' than the Northern Irish - if we're talking in the political/citizenship sense. We're all Ukish or something. Any reference to the mainlanders being 'British' would be made on the basis of geography, therefore.

[OzzieMandias]

A mate of mine is from Norn Iron, and was technically British, but being a Catholic, he got himself an Irish passport as soon as he could when it became a lot easier a few years back.

 

No, he wasn't technically British. He was technically a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

But Rep of ireland northern ireland and Great Britain are all in the British Isles.

 

Yep. But that's geography, not politics/citizenship. Like being in Europe isn't the same as being in the European Union.

 

God, can't believe I'm getting involved in this...

 

If we ('Brits') are all simply citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, presumably the people of Great Britain aren't any more 'British' than the Northern Irish - if we're talking in the political/citizenship sense. We're all Ukish or something. Any reference to the mainlanders being 'British' would be made on the basis of geography, therefore.

 

No, the people of Britain are British. Britain is part of the United Kingdom. So is Northern Ireland. There's a difference between nationality and citizenship.

[80]

A mate of mine is from Norn Iron, and was technically British, but being a Catholic, he got himself an Irish passport as soon as he could when it became a lot easier a few years back.

 

No, he wasn't technically British. He was technically a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

 

But Rep of ireland northern ireland and Great Britain are all in the British Isles.

 

Yep. But that's geography, not politics/citizenship. Like being in Europe isn't the same as being in the European Union.

 

God, can't believe I'm getting involved in this...

 

If we ('Brits') are all simply citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, presumably the people of Great Britain aren't any more 'British' than the Northern Irish - if we're talking in the political/citizenship sense. We're all Ukish or something. Any reference to the mainlanders being 'British' would be made on the basis of geography, therefore.

 

No, the people of Britain are British. Britain is part of the United Kingdom. So is Northern Ireland. There's a difference between nationality and citizenship.

 

But you said the 'citizenship' sense.

 

That said, there might well be a difference between nationality and citizenship, though some would dispute that idea. We must then get on to the business of how one's nationality is determined, if it's not simply a product of political status. You appear to be suggesting one's inhabitance of an arbitrarily defined geographical entity confers one's nationality. Is that really the case? If so, which geographical entity is the important one? Northumberland? Britain? The British Isles? Europe? The Northern Hemisphere?

 

In certain senses of nationality, some would very definitely say they are not British regardless of the fact they have inhabited the geographical entity referred to as 'Great Britain'. They might form that view from something along the lines of perceived culture, language or history, for example. Following on from that logic, some would say they very definitely are British regardless of what geographical entity they have inhabited.

 

So, to go back to Martin O'Neill - how many ways can we slice him as a Brit? Well, geographically he's from the British Isles. He's also a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the people of whom are referred to by the UK state as being 'British citizens' - in this context, I'm not 'British' either, I'm a 'British citizen' - there being a difference between the two. Finally, he can be sliced as a Brit if he is personally identified as such. As a Roman Catholic from Ireland, we might guess he doesn't do this himself, though I don't remember hearing him comment any particular way on the matter.

 

Edit: Reading back, it looks like I've jumped in positioned for a conversation different to the one that was actually taking place. All the same, most of what I say stands.