Jump to content

Let's talk about passports and that. What does 'foreign' REALLY mean?


Dave
 Share

Recommended Posts

Arsenal - Arsene Wenger

Aston Villa - Martin O'Neill

Blackburn Rovers - Paul Ince

Bolton Wanderers - Gary Megson

Chelsea - Phil Scolari

Everton - David Moyes

Fulham - Roy Hodgson

Hull City - Phil Brown

Liverpool - Rafael Benitez

Manchester City - Mark Hughes

Manchester United - Alex Ferguson

Middlesbrough - Gareth Southgate

Newcastle United - Joe Kinnear

Portsmouth - Tony Adams?

Stoke City - Tony Pulis

Sunderland - Roy Keane

Tottenham Hotspur - Harry Redknapp

West Bromwich Albion - Tony Mowbray

West Ham United - Gianfranco Zola

Wigan Athletic - Steve Bruce

 

So of the 20 currently in charge, only four Premier League managers are foreigners in the true sense of the word. After Keegan went I was certain we'd move for an overseas manager to try fit our system, especially when the likes of Deschamps and Zico were supposedly interested.

 

But I'm wondering now if it's quite that clear cut. Of the four current foreigners, one has been there ages (Wenger), two have proven themselves elsewhere (Scolari, Benitez) and only one is a genuine gamble - Zola.

 

My question is, are the days of the foreign manager in English football fading? If so - and assuming the new owners will abandon our continental system - who does that leave us considering for the job?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest sicko2ndbest

Which makes Shearers appointment all the more logical

 

Phil Brown, Southgate, Keane all with no previous managerial experience

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest sicko2ndbest

Which makes Shearers appointment all the more logical

 

Was waiting for that. :)

 

Seriously though, who else would there be if we ignored the foreign contingent altogether? ???

 

Unless it was a van gaal, hiddink or a advocaat it would be a massive gamble if we went foreign

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the other side when you look at the truth at there... the foreign manager rule EPL. I think not fading dave. it's like natural selection. foreign manager gets more... pressured to be success rather than local ones. Maybe because the owner think like this "Why i use the service of foreign one... which is i pay more money for him... if i don't see he got top quality that i can set him target for the top...? locals are more less gamble. and more settled quicker with the team.

Link to post
Share on other sites

But Chelsea and Arsenal are one-offs in their own way - Wenger revolutionised Arsenal when he came and has effectively worked miracles, whereas Chelsea until very recently have been untouchable in terms of spending power.

 

I don't really know what I'm getting at with this, just saying that I'm not sure it's as popular a move any more just to plump for a fashionable foreigner.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting point Dave, I hadn't realised there were so few. One thing though, out of those four managers, three are in control of the three best clubs in the country. Don't know if that means anything.

I'd suggest that it's because British managers don't generally do so well in Europe, or at least it's perceived that way. Tactically naive. Even Ferguson struggled for a long time in Europe with a side that dominated the domestic league. They only started making real headway when Queiroz persuaded Fergie not to be so gung-ho in the CL.

 

There's probably a chicken-and-egg element to it, though. British managers aren't considered for the top jobs, because they have no great track record in Europe, which is hard to get unless you have a cracking side. Like the players, British managers would probably benefit from working abroad to broaden their horizons.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest sicko2ndbest

Which makes Shearers appointment all the more logical

 

Phil Brown, Southgate, Keane all with no previous managerial experience

 

See also Sammy Lee, Steve McClaren & Chris Hutchings.

 

Shearer is to the aforementioned, as gold is to tin

Link to post
Share on other sites

Which makes Shearers appointment all the more logical

 

Phil Brown, Southgate, Keane all with no previous managerial experience

 

See also Sammy Lee, Steve McClaren & Chris Hutchings.

 

Shearer is to the aforementioned, as gold is to tin

 

Ok then, Waddle, Hateley, Rush, Barnes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't really know what I'm getting at with this, just saying that I'm not sure it's as popular a move any more just to plump for a fashionable foreigner.

 

That's definitely true, I still think we're quite conservative in that if things go wrong we go for the safe option. The days of appointing a relative unknown in the style of Christian Gross or whoever are definitely over. Look at Spurs now, I don't think you can say that Redknapp is objectively a 'better manager' then Ramos, but he's a 'solid' appointment.

 

And the recent flak for the DoF system will add to this effect, if the media trend continues we might see more clubs going for a traditional manager who does it all. What that will mean for acadmies, scouting and our chances in Europe I don't know.

 

All of the above applies only to clubs outside the top 4 I suppose, as the top 4 will continue to be in a universe of their own.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Depends on the club and circumstances. I don't think the circumstances at Newcastle now are ideal for a foreign manager.

 

For where Spurs were last season, Ramos was the perfect appointment. They were the ones on the brink of the top 4, and no manager in this country has really had experience of doing that, whereas in Spain Ramos had done something similar with Sevilla. Now though rock-bottom, the safe option was Redknapp, who's had experience of getting clubs out of a hole.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The rush to obtain foreign managers was largely pushed by Arsene Wenger's success at Arsenal, and then, to a lesser degree, Jose Mourinho's stint at Chelsea.

Wenger has been at Arsenal now for over 10 years, and to me, is not really a 'Foreign' manager at all now - he is even on record as bemoaning the fact that not enough English youngsters are coming through...

 

Also, because he has been there so long, he is almost a 'part of the furniture' in the Prem..

Mourinho had worked with SBR prior to coming to England, and comes from a notoriously pro-English country in Portugal, so settled well and had a good understanding of the Prem .

 

Of the others, Benitez has done well(although the Scousers whinge about lack of titles..) - Ramos was a flash-in-the-pan, probably not helped by his poor command of English, although not being fluent in Dutch or Portuguese didn't affect SBR's success in those countries...

The most successful foreign manager before Wenger really hit the heights was Houllier at Liverpool .

 

If you look back over the years, no Foreign manager has equalled Bob Paisley in quality of trophies won and none has managed to beat Sir Alex Ferguson's title wins in the Prem.

Also, none have taken on a small English club like Clough did with Derby & Forest, and win the European Cup.

 

I disagree that a foreign manager is a pre-requisite for success - its just that many of the last generation of English/British managers were not especially good...NOW, however, we have some very good ones coming through ; Hughes, Keane(yes, I know...Mackems, Irish etc),Southgate, Bruce(to a lesser degree) and, although he has a very difficult job because of finance restrictions, Mowbray.

Of the older ones, you have to say that Redknapp has done a decent job at smaller clubs, Moyes is in between these groups in age, but has done well at Everton given that he also is not rolling in cash...

O'Neill, despite the bias of some on here, has also done well at 3 different clubs.

 

All in all, its hard to justify saying that a Foreign manager will guarantee success any more than a British or Irish one will ; its the calibre of man that counts AND the back-up system he works with.

 

Incidentally, the argument that clubs that do well domestically used to struggle in Europe is not always true - NUFC know that better than anyone after winning the Fairs Cup by beating teams like Feyenoord, Sporting Lisbon, Real Zaragoza and Ujpest Dosza(who had previously hammered Leeds, the top English side of the era...part of the reason for Newcastle's success was the terrific aerial ability of Wyn Davies and the scoring feats of Robson coupled with a tough, organised defence in which 3 of the Back 4 were Internationals of high repute, but also that there was more physical contact allowed in those days..

 

Newcastle qualified for that tournament by finishing 10th, and getting in under the 1 club, 1 city rule.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a lot of clubs would like foreign managers I just get the feeling most of them want to stay abroad to manage, the money in the English game if stupid and getting worse season by season. Not to menntiont hey see how short a time managers are given to get it right before being sacked.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think a lot of clubs would like foreign managers I just get the feeling most of them want to stay abroad to manage, the money in the English game if stupid and getting worse season by season. Not to menntiont hey see how short a time managers are given to get it right before being sacked.

A lot longer than is usual in Spain...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...