Llambias Q&A with Chronicle: OP updated with Thursday's articles

[NE5]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of shit. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty fucking lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't fucking understand, can't fucking believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the fuck !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

I have also repeated on numerous occasions that I was one of the few people saying they should exercise restraint when others were urging the club to splash the cash during the reign of Souness, more cash, and more cash, in addition to what he already had, they are some of the same people who are now saying the club shouldn't have spent the cash.

 

 

 

 

[Mick]

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

 

 

So you have a go at Ashley for doing what was going to happen anyway.  mackems.gif

[WhatTheFunk]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of s***. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty f***ing lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't f***ing understand, can't f***ing believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the f*** !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

 

 

I think you've got the whole concept of ambition all wrong NE5.

 

As you say, you expected the old board to level out for a few years, using SA's wheeling and dealing in the market, in order to re-gain a stable financial footing before spending again. Correct? That's ambition in itself, as it shows that they understood the dire financial situation we were in, and weren't about to drown the club into more debt that we couldn't afford.

 

Now. How is that different to Ashley wanting to do the same now, as we find ourselves in a dire financial state?

 

Imo it's just unfortunate for us and for Ashley that he took over the club at this particular time, and has had to reign in the spending before things got out of control.

[NE5]

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

Just out of interest, if he does reply by pm then let us know in here although you don't have to post his answer.

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section". 

 

 

[The Prophet]

This year the Premier League has been tight as a duck's chuff, especially down the bottom. I think depending on the club you can fit the reason for their position into a certain category. Obviously you've got the three promoted teams who are trying to bridge the massive gulf in quality. You've got your teams who have or are in the process of selling off their assets in the first team and are regressing as a consequence, take Portsmouth or Blackburn as an example. You've got the teams consolidating after avoiding the drop last year like your Sunderlands and Boltons. And you've got your teams who just aren't doing enough to get to the next level and as a consequence are playing catch up with those above. This includes Middlesborough.

 

Now I know these are broad categories, we aren't ran in the same way but both clubs are similar in the way they just seem to be floating, not progressing, not regressing and as a consequence they've been caught up in the shit, obviously the quality we already had at the club seems to put us in a more favourable position. Now I know Ashley financially plugging gaps right left and centre but I know what NE5 is trying to say.

 

If you want to get to the top and you want to get there quickly, you have to get your hand in your pocket. Take a look at Chelsea and probably sooner or later Man City, they're racking up huge debts, turning over massive losses but as a consequence they'll win trophies and qualify for Europe. Qualifying for Europe brings the club more fans and sponsors world wide. The more popular the club becomes the more revenue generate and slowly but sooner or later the debt is payed off.

 

You also have to consider the consequences of getting it wrong, the example I missed in Spurs. They have rich owners who spent big and nearly got into the Champions League but after continuing to add to the squad they made no progress. They shuck things up last season while near enough breaking even and this put them in a worse position still with the threat of relegation growing by the game. I suppose this is what we tried to do after the glory years under Shepherd and it's one of the reasons are finances are in such a mess now. We budgeted big and got it wrong.

 

Now taking these examples you've got to ask is this club in the position and does Ashley have the wealth to take the gamble of budgeting for Europe? We're already in pretty poor financial shape so is it really worth poking more holes in the ship without considering the consequences of getting it wrong? Ashley is talking of modelling ourselves on Villa, but you've got to remember Ellis ran a pretty tight ship before Lerner built on that foundation. Perhaps it would be sensible to get ourselves on steady financial ground before taking another gamble just in case it does go wrong.

 

Personally I'm willing to give Ashley the benefit of the doubt. He hasn't done a great job so far but currently he's keeping the club afloat. If he does intend to increase investment as we steady the ship then I'm OK with that. However if he wants to carry on spending next to nothing year after year he needs to sell up now or this club will go down sooner or later. To progress you have to spend money in some kind of capacity, will Ashley do this? I don't know, I’m not a mind reader, but if he doesn't start soonish the rats will start leaving the sinking ship and staying in this league will become harder still.

 

[Liam Liam Liam O]

Apologies if you've already told us NE5, I know how much you keep saying you hate repeating yourself, but have you joined NUSC?

[madras]

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

Just out of interest, if he does reply by pm then let us know in here although you don't have to post his answer.

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section".  

 

 

bet you don't

[NE5]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of s***. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty f***ing lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't f***ing understand, can't f***ing believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the f*** !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

 

 

I think you've got the whole concept of ambition all wrong NE5.

 

As you say, you expected the old board to level out for a few years, using SA's wheeling and dealing in the market, in order to re-gain a stable financial footing before spending again. Correct? That's ambition in itself, as it shows that they understood the dire financial situation we were in, and weren't about to drown the club into more debt that we couldn't afford.

 

Now. How is that different to Ashley wanting to do the same now, as we find ourselves in a dire financial state?

 

Imo it's just unfortunate for us and for Ashley that he took over the club at this particular time, and has had to reign in the spending before things got out of control.

 

I don't think I have in the slightest. I expect a club like NUFC to act like a big club at all times, and I don't think Ashley has the ambition to succeed. As spence has just said, this club is in a position light years superior to the one the Halls and shepherd found it, whatever the younger lads think, its true. Certain other people , who have a personality agenda and spout bollocks accordingly, should really be ignored. It isn't as if they can say the league positions, crowds, stadium expansion or anything is something I've made up or anything 

[Mick]

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section".  

 

 

 

You're going to preach about integrity and standards, this should be fun.

[NE5]

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

Just out of interest, if he does reply by pm then let us know in here although you don't have to post his answer.

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section".  

 

 

bet you don't

 

I just did 

[NE5]

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section".  

 

 

 

You're going to preach about integrity and standards, this should be fun.

 

not half so funny as you saying the Halls and Shepherd were "just the same" as their predecessors  mackems.gif

[WhatTheFunk]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of s***. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty f***ing lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't f***ing understand, can't f***ing believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the f*** !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

 

 

I think you've got the whole concept of ambition all wrong NE5.

 

As you say, you expected the old board to level out for a few years, using SA's wheeling and dealing in the market, in order to re-gain a stable financial footing before spending again. Correct? That's ambition in itself, as it shows that they understood the dire financial situation we were in, and weren't about to drown the club into more debt that we couldn't afford.

 

Now. How is that different to Ashley wanting to do the same now, as we find ourselves in a dire financial state?

 

Imo it's just unfortunate for us and for Ashley that he took over the club at this particular time, and has had to reign in the spending before things got out of control.

 

I don't think I have in the slightest. I expect a club like NUFC to act like a big club at all times, and I don't think Ashley has the ambition to succeed. As spence has just said, this club is in a position light years superior to the one the Halls and shepherd found it, whatever the younger lads think, its true. Certain other people , who have a personality agenda and spout bollocks accordingly, should really be ignored. It isn't as if they can say the league positions, crowds, stadium expansion or anything is something I've made up or anything 

 

NUFC can act like a big club when it's consistently finishing in the top 4, consistently qualifying for the CL, and at least add one or two trophies to its trophy cabinet in say a decade. Although we did achieve high league finishes, they were never consistent enough. And you cannot compare CL money with UEFA cup money as there is a world of a difference. As far as results and league finishes go, NUFC was inconsistent, and in comparison to Man U, Arsenal, and Liverpool, were seen to be punching above their weight. How many times did we finish outside the top 10 under the old board?

[NE5]

Apologies if you've already told us NE5, I know how much you keep saying you hate repeating yourself, but have you joined NUSC?

 

did I say that I had ?

 

I live out of the area, so can't attend the meetings. I have however, been asked for some input, and gave it.

 

 

[Dave]

The old board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - fine.

The new board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - not fine.

 

Why?

[madras]

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

Just out of interest, if he does reply by pm then let us know in here although you don't have to post his answer.

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section".  

 

 

bet you don't

 

I just did 

so you do expect them to keep racking up more and more debt year on year until either success or bankruptcy.

 

 

why didn't you say earlier. it would have saved a lot of bother. cheers.

[NE5]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of s***. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty f***ing lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't f***ing understand, can't f***ing believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the f*** !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

 

 

I think you've got the whole concept of ambition all wrong NE5.

 

As you say, you expected the old board to level out for a few years, using SA's wheeling and dealing in the market, in order to re-gain a stable financial footing before spending again. Correct? That's ambition in itself, as it shows that they understood the dire financial situation we were in, and weren't about to drown the club into more debt that we couldn't afford.

 

Now. How is that different to Ashley wanting to do the same now, as we find ourselves in a dire financial state?

 

Imo it's just unfortunate for us and for Ashley that he took over the club at this particular time, and has had to reign in the spending before things got out of control.

 

I don't think I have in the slightest. I expect a club like NUFC to act like a big club at all times, and I don't think Ashley has the ambition to succeed. As spence has just said, this club is in a position light years superior to the one the Halls and shepherd found it, whatever the younger lads think, its true. Certain other people , who have a personality agenda and spout bollocks accordingly, should really be ignored. It isn't as if they can say the league positions, crowds, stadium expansion or anything is something I've made up or anything 

 

NUFC can act like a big club when it's consistently finishing in the top 4, consistently qualifying for the CL, and at least add one or two trophies to its trophy cabinet in say a decade. Although we did achieve high league finishes, they were never consistent enough. And you cannot compare CL money with UEFA cup money as there is a world of a difference. As far as results and league finishes go, NUFC was inconsistent, and in comparison to Man U, Arsenal, and Liverpool, were seen to be punching above their weight. How many times did we finish outside the top 10 under the old board?

 

 

you will never do this unless you act like a big club wanting to get in there. Ashley won't do that.

 

 

[Mick]

 

not half so funny as you saying the Halls and Shepherd were "just the same" as their predecessors  mackems.gif

 

No doubt you have proof to back that claim up?  No, I thought not.

[WhatTheFunk]

The old board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - fine.

The new board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - not fine.

 

Why?

 

This is exactly my question to NE5, and he will not answer it except to say Ashley is a clueless knobjockey etcetera etcetera

[NE5]

The old board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - fine.

The new board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - not fine.

 

Why?

 

They won't show the ambition to go forward again. Didn't I say ages ago too - long before Keegan triggered all this and opened some eyes  ?

 

You're not doing a u-turn are you  ?

 

2 years into his "plan", and it still isn't obvious ?

 

 

[WhatTheFunk]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of s***. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty f***ing lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't f***ing understand, can't f***ing believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the f*** !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

I've already posted that I saw Allardyce's appointment at the time as a good one and with the other motive in him having shown himself to be able to build a fairly good club without spending loads of money, in order to level out for a few years. I've also said that after taht period I have no doubt that they would attempt to push forward with ambition again. I don't think Ashley will, in fact his complete lack or urgency and ignorance of our dire position as regards to a potential relegation says everything you ought to know about his ambition and intentions for the club.

 

 

 

I think you've got the whole concept of ambition all wrong NE5.

 

As you say, you expected the old board to level out for a few years, using SA's wheeling and dealing in the market, in order to re-gain a stable financial footing before spending again. Correct? That's ambition in itself, as it shows that they understood the dire financial situation we were in, and weren't about to drown the club into more debt that we couldn't afford.

 

Now. How is that different to Ashley wanting to do the same now, as we find ourselves in a dire financial state?

 

Imo it's just unfortunate for us and for Ashley that he took over the club at this particular time, and has had to reign in the spending before things got out of control.

 

I don't think I have in the slightest. I expect a club like NUFC to act like a big club at all times, and I don't think Ashley has the ambition to succeed. As spence has just said, this club is in a position light years superior to the one the Halls and shepherd found it, whatever the younger lads think, its true. Certain other people , who have a personality agenda and spout bollocks accordingly, should really be ignored. It isn't as if they can say the league positions, crowds, stadium expansion or anything is something I've made up or anything 

 

NUFC can act like a big club when it's consistently finishing in the top 4, consistently qualifying for the CL, and at least add one or two trophies to its trophy cabinet in say a decade. Although we did achieve high league finishes, they were never consistent enough. And you cannot compare CL money with UEFA cup money as there is a world of a difference. As far as results and league finishes go, NUFC was inconsistent, and in comparison to Man U, Arsenal, and Liverpool, were seen to be punching above their weight. How many times did we finish outside the top 10 under the old board?

 

 

you will never do this unless you act like a big club wanting to get in there. Ashley won't do that.

 

 

 

Oh good lord jesus h. christ!!!

 

You're not here to debate anything!!! What a waste of fucking time.

[madras]

 

How does the whole Leeds thing affect what you've just said? They were performing well on the pitch, qualifying for Europe, doing well in the league, but in order to do that they took huge gambles behind the scenes and despite their onfield success those gambles ended up failing and now look at them. Ridsdale risked the future survival of the club in an effort to achieve success in what was the present and they're now paying the price for that. In my view there are definite parallels between that and what's happened to us. Hopefully our situation will not end up being as extreme as theirs and Fred and the Halls had managed to do it for longer, but we are now paying the price for the good times and the club's approach did need to change. That would apply regardless of whether it was Ashley or Fred and the Halls running the club.

 

Can I ask you a genuine question? Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change? You can answer me in a PM if you want.

 

Just out of interest, if he does reply by pm then let us know in here although you don't have to post his answer.

 

the man with the biggest personality agenda on the board preaches on about integrity and standards. I didn't have the slightest intention of replying by pm, I'll do it on an open board, rather than you harp on about it in your "secret section".  

 

 

bet you don't

 

I just did 

and i don't believe that answer you gave is an answer to this question that you claim to have answered................

Do you really think that we could have continued how we were going, building up debt, maintaining a huge wage bill and making consistent losses, or did things need to change?

[Dave]

The old board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - fine.

The new board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - not fine.

 

Why?

 

This is exactly my question to NE5, and he will not answer it except to say Ashley is a clueless knobjockey etcetera etcetera

 

Looks like you're right. Oh well.

[maze]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

It boils down to the same thing I've said from day 1, you know, what people don't understand and have been disputing all along, which is a board with desire for success, what it takes and backs their managers is better anyday than one who's only aim is saftely and afraid to the degree they won't back their managers.

 

Any owner who takes this Ashley direction will NEVER match the Halls and Shepherd.

 

 

 

Personally, I'm not looking for someone ready to match the Halls and Shepherd at all. I don't like Ashley. I think he's piece of s***. But I thank Llambias for his time answering questions to the Chronicle. However, they (Ashley & co) have to pretty f***ing lame if they think that running away from a problem (not communicating) is better than working around a solution (communicating).

 

However, there are some things I like. That is Wise bringing in youngsters. Ever since I became a NUFC supporter, the lack of youngsters have really amazed me. So it's a good thing we bring in young players. Hopefully they will develop nicely. I also agree that debt and wage bill is far too high, and those numbers are not reflecting our league position or lack of euro. football... or cups for that matter.

 

Other than that, I can't f***ing understand, can't f***ing believe, it is possible to run a football club the way newcastle United has been for years and years. I mean... what the f*** !?!

 

thats quite a sensible post, but you let yourself down like others do with the last sentence. I mean, how can a club be badly run when it qualifies for europe more than any club bar 4 over a period of 15 years ? How many of the 87 clubs that didn't do as well as us do you think were "run better" ?

 

 

 

I could probably write a book large enough to make any other book like a post-it note. I realise we all have different opinions, and you know, I think that's a good thing! There's always drama around Newcastle, why isn't there the same drama around sunderland or middlesborough? If you're Shepard how hard is it to understand that spending a lot money that you don't have over time is going to get some serious consequences? Where are the qualified/educated people to come in and stop that madness? If you're billionaire Ashley how the fuck can you excuse the lack of communication, or the lack of funds spent on transfers? ...One got to be pretty fucking stupid to blame it all on "oh, I didn't know my investment was in such a bad condition!". My response would be: "oh, mr. billionaire, where the fuck is your educated/qualified people helping you out... helping you to understand what's what?" Mr Ashley/Llambas you say you want to copy Villa, Arsenal blabla.. then pull together and do something.

 

Well, I could go on forever, there's so many questions that needs answers, so many basic things that needs to be sorted out... and I simply can't understand how it can be so fucking hard to do something consistently right over time. Why the drama, why the pain, why the hype? Why not do what needs to be done and get over it.

[WhatTheFunk]

The old board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - fine.

The new board taking stock and trying to get back on a sound financial footing - not fine.

 

Why?

 

They won't show the ambition to go forward again. Didn't I say ages ago too - long before Keegan triggered all this and opened some eyes  ?

 

You're not doing a u-turn are you  ?

 

2 years into his "plan", and it still isn't obvious ?

 

 

 

this your new catchphrase now then?

 

every time I have this hope that, despite you sticking to your guns in terms of what you believe, that you are able to have some sort of constructive discussion with people who disagree with you. every time you have gone and proved that it isn't possible. fucking pathetic.

[NE5]

 

not half so funny as you saying the Halls and Shepherd were "just the same" as their predecessors  mackems.gif

 

No doubt you have proof to back that claim up?  No, I thought not.

 

You know what you have said. You'll disappear even if I did find some of the things you've said, just like when you gave me the toonarama link yourself that proved you wrong about Gordon Lee  mackems.gif

 

the quotes in my sig are proof enough of your personality agenda and cluelessness.