Hillsborough

[magorific]

Did the independent report look into the state of mind of the Liverpool fans?  Drunkenness etc?

 

(serious question)

 

Yes. It talks about how the authorities tried - and failed - to smear fans by taking blood samples from the dead (including a 10-year-old) to test for alcohol levels.

[magorific]

I've read a few threads on this on various message boards today, and I am both amazed and depressed how so many people, despite having just had a truly independent inquiry given full access to, and having studied 400,000 pages of evidence and state the utter contrary, still persist in going on about ticketless fans, p*ssed fans forcing entry, etc - do you not realise these are EXACTLY the slurs which the families have put up with for 23 years and which have been so comprehensively demolished today?

 

Why on earth are you letting your dislike of one football club or city poison your rationality like this? Get it into your heads - the fans have NOTHING to be guily about regarding what happened that day. There were NOT bands of p*ssed up fans forcing entry. There were NOT great numbers of ticketless fans outside.

 

Seriously, what will it take for people to stop spouting this bullshit?

 

I suspect the great majority of those who do are too young to have been a football match attender in the 1980s. or they'd realise that ultimately Hillsborough is not just about Liverpool fans. Anyone who attended matches in that period will have similar stories of dangerous conditions, of terrifying overcrowding, of police hostility, brutality and negligence.

 

Anyone who visited the Sheffield grounds as a fan in that time will be entirely aware of the deserved reputation South Yorkshire Police had at the time in the way they treated football supporters. They were in a great many cases total f***ing scumbags, who would frequently look for trouble, not try to stop it.

 

Those in denial today really need to understand this - it could quite easily have been your club, and the people of Newcastle who would have suffered what happened in 1989. Then imagine 23 years of being called liars by important sectors of the media, and the police.

 

Imagine having the police lie and doctor evidence to protect themselves at your cost. Imagine having the people who are supposed to protect you turn on you so overwhelmingly to protect their own backs. Imagine living with that blighting your life for 23 years. Have a think about people sneering about your city because of it. Think about total f***ing scumbags like Kelvin MacKenzie continuing to lie about you right to the end, right until he's forced to apologise. How do you imagine that feels?

 

The worst thing about today is finding out just how comprehensively, wilfully, and shamelessly the government, media and police of this country treated those families for a quarter of a century, but I have to say, i find the wilfully stupid denial that so many people in the football community - the very community which was under attack - have even today in refusing to believe what has been spelled out so comprehensively by this report, and by the reaction of the Prime Minister in parliament today.

 

Honestly, get a f***ing grip.

 

This post should be cut and pasted onto every Hillsborough thread on every forum in the country. Spot on.

[Dave]

Safe standing will never come back in, in Britain.

 

Tend to agree.

[Ishmael]

Did the independent report look into the state of mind of the Liverpool fans?  Drunkenness etc?

 

(serious question)

 

Yes. It talks about how the authorities tried - and failed - to smear fans by taking blood samples from the dead (including a 10-year-old) to test for alcohol levels.

 

What were the findings of said blood samples from the dead and any other tests/investigations they did? 

[thedudeabides]

I've read a few threads on this on various message boards today, and I am both amazed and depressed how so many people, despite having just had a truly independent inquiry given full access to, and having studied 400,000 pages of evidence and state the utter contrary, still persist in going on about ticketless fans, p*ssed fans forcing entry, etc - do you not realise these are EXACTLY the slurs which the families have put up with for 23 years and which have been so comprehensively demolished today?

 

Why on earth are you letting your dislike of one football club or city poison your rationality like this? Get it into your heads - the fans have NOTHING to be guily about regarding what happened that day. There were NOT bands of p*ssed up fans forcing entry. There were NOT great numbers of ticketless fans outside.

 

Seriously, what will it take for people to stop spouting this bullshit?

 

I suspect the great majority of those who do are too young to have been a football match attender in the 1980s. or they'd realise that ultimately Hillsborough is not just about Liverpool fans. Anyone who attended matches in that period will have similar stories of dangerous conditions, of terrifying overcrowding, of police hostility, brutality and negligence.

 

Anyone who visited the Sheffield grounds as a fan in that time will be entirely aware of the deserved reputation South Yorkshire Police had at the time in the way they treated football supporters. They were in a great many cases total f***ing scumbags, who would frequently look for trouble, not try to stop it.

 

Those in denial today really need to understand this - it could quite easily have been your club, and the people of Newcastle who would have suffered what happened in 1989. Then imagine 23 years of being called liars by important sectors of the media, and the police.

 

Imagine having the police lie and doctor evidence to protect themselves at your cost. Imagine having the people who are supposed to protect you turn on you so overwhelmingly to protect their own backs. Imagine living with that blighting your life for 23 years. Have a think about people sneering about your city because of it. Think about total f***ing scumbags like Kelvin MacKenzie continuing to lie about you right to the end, right until he's forced to apologise. How do you imagine that feels?

 

The worst thing about today is finding out just how comprehensively, wilfully, and shamelessly the government, media and police of this country treated those families for a quarter of a century, but I have to say, i find the wilfully stupid denial that so many people in the football community - the very community which was under attack - have even today in refusing to believe what has been spelled out so comprehensively by this report, and by the reaction of the Prime Minister in parliament today.

 

Honestly, get a f***ing grip.

 

Great post.

 

As someone who visited that ground in the 80's and experienced crushing, and as someone who saw the way South Yorkshire Police treat all football fans, the outcome is of no great surprise.

I'm sure there were a small number of drunk and ticketless fans there, but that would have been the same story with any big club in that era, but it has been proven beyond doubt that this was not the cause. What more do people want?

 

I also think that the FA's part in this should be called int I question. Firstly, they awarded the tie to a ground with known problems and with no valid safety certificate. Once they had made that choice, they then made the ludicrous decision of putting the Liverpool fans in that end, when they ( due to their far bigger support), should have allocated the Kop End.

[Heake]

Did the independent report look into the state of mind of the Liverpool fans?  Drunkenness etc?

 

(serious question)

 

Yes. It talks about how the authorities tried - and failed - to smear fans by taking blood samples from the dead (including a 10-year-old) to test for alcohol levels.

 

What were the findings of said blood samples from the dead and any other tests/investigations they did? 

 

The general sobriety of the crowd was irrelevant.

 

Having a beer with your mates etc. before a match is the law as far as i`m concerned. Crowd "mentality" does not rely on large groups of pissed people in order to present problems of order.

 

 

[Cronky]

It feels like we're stuck in a syndrome whereby the more the police are 'to blame', then the less 'blame' is attached to the fans, as though blame could be divvied up like a pie. Even if every single fan that day was drunk and didn't have a ticket, the police would still be guilty of incompetence and attempting to cover up their mistakes.

 

At the same time, we have to face the fact that drunken, violent behaviour amongst football fans was a much greater problem in those days than it is now, and that was the environment in which the police were acting. That was why the mistake was made of shutting people up in pens. One positive thing that emerged after Hillsborough was that it had a generally sobering effect on the behaviour and attitude of many fans, and crowd control became easier.

[Heake]

Let it also be known that Thatcher had been briefed on the likelyhood that the Police had been complicit in a cover up & was  culpable for a great deal of what went on that day.

 

But chose to keep it under wraps.

 

For that alone, The fucking Witch should dragged out of her piss stained bed & charged with conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

 

 

[David Icke - Son of God]

Did the independent report look into the state of mind of the Liverpool fans?  Drunkenness etc?

 

(serious question)

 

Yes. It talks about how the authorities tried - and failed - to smear fans by taking blood samples from the dead (including a 10-year-old) to test for alcohol levels.

 

What were the findings of said blood samples from the dead and any other tests/investigations they did? 

 

Normal for a sporting event of that nature. There were no signs of excessive drunkenness.

 

The dead and the injured who had their blood taken also had their backgrounds checked to see if they had any criminal records to further smear the supporters.

[thedudeabides]

Let it also be known that Thatcher had been briefed on the likelyhood that the Police had been complicit in a cover up & was  culpable for a great deal of what went on that day.

 

But chose to keep it under wraps.

 

For that alone, The f***ing Witch should dragged out of her p*ss stained bed & charged with conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

 

 

 

The report found "no evidence of an government trying to conceal the truth".

 

[Heake]

It has been reported that Thatcher was breifed by Bernhard Ingham about the likelyhood of a cover up.

 

I will try & find a link.

 

Taken from a telegraph article yesterday:

 

"Even Margaret Thatcher's press chief told her at the time, in notes obtained by the panel, that the police's "defensive - and at times close to deceitful - behaviour" sounded "depressingly familiar". "

 

[Hudson]

Let it also be known that Thatcher had been briefed on the likelyhood that the Police had been complicit in a cover up & was  culpable for a great deal of what went on that day.

 

But chose to keep it under wraps.

 

For that alone, The f***ing Witch should dragged out of her p*ss stained bed & charged with conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.

 

 

 

The report found "no evidence of an government trying to conceal the truth".

 

 

 

Yeah and the report before that blamed the supporters.

 

If they have found these 164 changes to witness statements during the inquest, then they sure as hell new they where there when this happened 23 years ago.

 

 

 

[Incognito]

I stood on the Leppings Lane terrace when I saw Coventry win there in the FA Cup QF in 1987, firstly the coppers were a disgrace, niggling at fans to get a reaction, and also when Coventry scored early on, it was pandemonium and my mate disappeared underneath one of them stanchion posts you used to see, he reappeared 20 rows further down. Alcohol for sure had saved him as he was blissfully unaware of how dangerous his situation was.

[Guest Brazilianbob]

I was in the leppings lane stand in 1974 and I well remember our own fans who arrived rather close to kick off pushing through the tunnel under the stand to force those of us on the top of the terrace down to the front so they could get the best view from the terrace.  We found ourselves pushed right down to the fence and ended up leaving the leppings lane stand because of the crush.  As far as I know this was because our own fans were desperate to get onto the terrace and the tunnel was a bottleneck which at times was static and solid so the fans just pushed and pushed to get through with no thought to how it would affect those of us already on the terracing.  I have never apportioned any blame on those fans who tragically died at Hillsborough and can't understand how anyone could even contemplate that, but I do wonder whether those fans who pushed through that tunnel on that dreadful day ever wonder whether they contributed to thr tragedy

[BlueStar]

Ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw has said Margaret Thatcher's government created a "culture of impunity" in the police that led to the Hillsborough cover-up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19584313

[Dokko]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

[Jack Flash]

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grieve junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

The complete change in tone from yesterday morning has indeed been rather amusing.

[David Icke - Son of God]

Ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw has said Margaret Thatcher's government created a "culture of impunity" in the police that led to the Hillsborough cover-up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19584313

 

The Demon Headmaster has a point.

[Village Idiot]

Is MacKenzie's apology a Giggs?

 

Kelvin MacKenzie, the editor of The Sun when the paper ran a front page story blaming fans for the Hillsborough tragedy, today offered his ''profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool''.

Mr MacKenzie, who wrote the headline The Truth on the controversial report, said in a statement: ''Today I offer my profuse apologies to the people of Liverpool for that headline.

''I too was totally misled. Twenty three ago I was handed a piece of copy from a reputable news agency in Sheffield in which a senior police officer and a senior local MP were making serious allegations against fans in the stadium.

''I had absolutely no reason to believe that these authority figures would lie and deceive over such a disaster.

''As the Prime Minister has made clear these allegations were wholly untrue and were part of a concerted plot by police officers to discredit the supporters thereby shifting the blame for the tragedy from themselves.

''It has taken more than two decades, 400,000 documents and a two-year inquiry to discover to my horror that it would have been far more accurate had I written the headline The Lies rather than The Truth.

''I published in good faith and I am sorry that it was so wrong.''

Trevor Hicks, who chairs the Hillsborough Family Support Group, rejected Mr MacKenzie's apology as "too little, too late", calling him "lowlife, clever lowlife, but lowlife".

[johnnypd]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

[colinmk]

Exactly what I was about to say Johnny.

[OzzieMandias]

I was going to say something similar. If the level of drinking was normal for a game at that time, then "excessive drinking" can't have been to blame for anything.

[Dokko]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

[OzzieMandias]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

 

Where does it say that?

[Dokko]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this shit? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a shit job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

 

Where does it say that?

 

Heard it several times on Sky news yesterday. Had it on all day. 'Fans were not drunk' 'there were no drunk fans in the ground'