r0cafella Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think for Suarez' first, it's just a brilliant bit of movement and some great vision from Cavani. Most defenders miss that tbh. There were times throughout the game though where we lost all shape at the back. Gerrard sitting far too deep didn't help either. If you watch Henderson, he's covering the area in front of Gerrard when Gerrard should be moving with play. I watched it again last night because I felt I missed a lot with watching the bairn as well. It's astonishing the lack of shape. I'm absolutely devastated to be honest. 2 years preparation, what we saw just wasn't good enough. I think the opposite lol, Gerrard didn't come and show for the ball nearly often enough leaving Henderson to do it. Gerrard doesn't have the legs to push forward hence the whole reason for playing Henderson as a box to box player. Henderson doesn't have the range of passing or creativity to play the deepest lying midfielder unless you want to utilise him as more of an anchor. If that is the goal then playing Gerrard alongside him doesn't make much sense as the space between the back 6 and the front four will be too large. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I think for Suarez' first, it's just a brilliant bit of movement and some great vision from Cavani. Most defenders miss that tbh. There were times throughout the game though where we lost all shape at the back. Gerrard sitting far too deep didn't help either. If you watch Henderson, he's covering the area in front of Gerrard when Gerrard should be moving with play. I watched it again last night because I felt I missed a lot with watching the bairn as well. It's astonishing the lack of shape. I'm absolutely devastated to be honest. 2 years preparation, what we saw just wasn't good enough. Johnson backs off Cavani big time despite the fact he has Jagielka inside him. It was a good run by Suarez don't get me wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 It was a weird shape, as you had Henderson playing in front of Gerrard so they just seemed like they were getting in each other's way. I understood Gerrards role I just thought he sat far too deep. Reminded me of Alan Smith tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 It was a weird shape, as you had Henderson playing in front of Gerrard so they just seemed like they were getting in each other's way. I understood Gerrards role I just thought he sat far too deep. Reminded me of Alan Smith tbh. I felt Gerrard just went missing plain and simple. Bottled it for me, it's fine playing few xabi alonso and Pirlo do it week in week out but they show for the ball and look to make things happen Gerrard didn't do that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Henderson always seems so close to his midfield partner. It's like he can't get through a game without holding hands as if he is a terrified kid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Barkley didn't do anything though, through no fault of his own really like, but you cannot claim Welbeck didn't step up but Barkley was a standout, man. Thought he set up Rooneys great chance v Italy, was Baines again who did pretty well going forwards. Just like how easily Barkley finds space & gets things moving. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes agree about Johnson. I thought he looked nervy when they were in possession but decent enough offensively. Bit lucky for his assist but we needed someone to try and go past a man. I remember seeing Sven try Beckham in a similar role. You need legs in your midfield at international level, and especially in that kind of climate. Perhaps the plan was for Gerrard to sit deep and watch the ball to Suarez but Suarez was so mobile that it was pointless. You're assuming that one of the worlds best off the ball is going to stay still and sit behind a defensive midfielder. Naive tactics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes agree about Johnson. I thought he looked nervy when they were in possession but decent enough offensively. Bit lucky for his assist but we needed someone to try and go past a man. I remember seeing Sven try Beckham in a similar role. You need legs in your midfield at international level, and especially in that kind of climate. Perhaps the plan was for Gerrard to sit deep and watch the ball to Suarez but Suarez was so mobile that it was pointless. You're assuming that one of the worlds best off the ball is going to stay still and sit behind a defensive midfielder. Naive tactics. Yup that's why teams playing a registered tend to have 2 players in front of the deepest midfielder if he's creative. Watch France tonight who play 433 but with Pogba and Matuidi covering a lot of the ground in front of Cabaye This is also apart of the reason why Liverpool fell apart at the end of the season they ran out of legs Henderson was knackered and Allan and lucas aren't good enough players all around to play the box to box role Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Trying not to draw too many conclusion from a couple of narrow defeats against one on the best defences in the world and one of the most dangerous forwards. Depressing obviously, but I don't think it's time to trot out all the same old England disappointment headlines. Can you name the 2 Italian full-backs? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes agree about Johnson. I thought he looked nervy when they were in possession but decent enough offensively. Bit lucky for his assist but we needed someone to try and go past a man. I remember seeing Sven try Beckham in a similar role. You need legs in your midfield at international level, and especially in that kind of climate. Perhaps the plan was for Gerrard to sit deep and watch the ball to Suarez but Suarez was so mobile that it was pointless. You're assuming that one of the worlds best off the ball is going to stay still and sit behind a defensive midfielder. Naive tactics. Yup that's why teams playing a registered tend to have 2 players in front of the deepest midfielder if he's creative. Watch France tonight who play 433 but with Pogba and Matuidi covering a lot of the ground in front of Cabaye This is also apart of the reason why Liverpool fell apart at the end of the season they ran out of legs Henderson was knackered and Allan and lucas aren't good enough players all around to play the box to box role Yeah, it just doesn't work with a midfield 2 like that. Id only look to play someone that deep if they were Makelele quality, other than that I'd prefer Wilshere in there who can play deep but has enough awareness of the role to know when to move up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Henderson always seems so close to his midfield partner. It's like he can't get through a game without holding hands as if he is a terrified kid. He's only in there to "be busy" which is basically "make up the numbers". 20 years ago he'd be classed as a nothing player but now he's an automatic starter for his country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Henderson always seems so close to his midfield partner. It's like he can't get through a game without holding hands as if he is a terrified kid. He's only in there to "be busy" which is basically "make up the numbers". 20 years ago he'd be classed as a nothing player but now he's an automatic starter for his country. He's there to make up for the fact Gerrard can't run, he's essential IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes agree about Johnson. I thought he looked nervy when they were in possession but decent enough offensively. Bit lucky for his assist but we needed someone to try and go past a man. I remember seeing Sven try Beckham in a similar role. You need legs in your midfield at international level, and especially in that kind of climate. Perhaps the plan was for Gerrard to sit deep and watch the ball to Suarez but Suarez was so mobile that it was pointless. You're assuming that one of the worlds best off the ball is going to stay still and sit behind a defensive midfielder. Naive tactics. Yup that's why teams playing a registered tend to have 2 players in front of the deepest midfielder if he's creative. Watch France tonight who play 433 but with Pogba and Matuidi covering a lot of the ground in front of Cabaye This is also apart of the reason why Liverpool fell apart at the end of the season they ran out of legs Henderson was knackered and Allan and lucas aren't good enough players all around to play the box to box role Yeah, it just doesn't work with a midfield 2 like that. Id only look to play someone that deep if they were Makelele quality, other than that I'd prefer Wilshere in there who can play deep but has enough awareness of the role to know when to move up. I don't think Wilshere is good enough to play in a midfield two at international level personally. In fact I don't think any of our central midfielders are. We either go 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot forming a shield or we go 4-3-3 with given our midfielders an anchor I don't think we have the players to play either system particularly well mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I don't see why Sturridge couldn't play wide in a 4-3-3, and Rooney would be good as a the central pivot as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Henderson always seems so close to his midfield partner. It's like he can't get through a game without holding hands as if he is a terrified kid. He's only in there to "be busy" which is basically "make up the numbers". 20 years ago he'd be classed as a nothing player but now he's an automatic starter for his country. He's there to make up for the fact Gerrard can't run, he's essential IMO. Such a crap reason to start someone consistently at the World Cup He doesn't offer anything. He doesn't help the defence, we don't control the midfield and he can't attack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Henderson always seems so close to his midfield partner. It's like he can't get through a game without holding hands as if he is a terrified kid. He's only in there to "be busy" which is basically "make up the numbers". 20 years ago he'd be classed as a nothing player but now he's an automatic starter for his country. He's there to make up for the fact Gerrard can't run, he's essential IMO. Gerrard shouldn't be playing, which removes the need for Henderson. Quite easy really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes agree about Johnson. I thought he looked nervy when they were in possession but decent enough offensively. Bit lucky for his assist but we needed someone to try and go past a man. I remember seeing Sven try Beckham in a similar role. You need legs in your midfield at international level, and especially in that kind of climate. Perhaps the plan was for Gerrard to sit deep and watch the ball to Suarez but Suarez was so mobile that it was pointless. You're assuming that one of the worlds best off the ball is going to stay still and sit behind a defensive midfielder. Naive tactics. Yup that's why teams playing a registered tend to have 2 players in front of the deepest midfielder if he's creative. Watch France tonight who play 433 but with Pogba and Matuidi covering a lot of the ground in front of Cabaye This is also apart of the reason why Liverpool fell apart at the end of the season they ran out of legs Henderson was knackered and Allan and lucas aren't good enough players all around to play the box to box role Yeah, it just doesn't work with a midfield 2 like that. Id only look to play someone that deep if they were Makelele quality, other than that I'd prefer Wilshere in there who can play deep but has enough awareness of the role to know when to move up. I don't think Wilshere is good enough to play in a midfield two at international level personally. In fact I don't think any of our central midfielders are. We either go 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot forming a shield or we go 4-3-3 with given our midfielders an anchor I don't think we have the players to play either system particularly well mind. Yeah I'd look at 4-3-3 because you have the flexibility with it to pull your wide men back deep. No idea about who to play the deeper role but ahead of him I'd have Wilshere and Barkley. Priority for the Euros for me would be to have Barkley and Sturridge develop a very good understanding of each other's play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
r0cafella Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Yes agree about Johnson. I thought he looked nervy when they were in possession but decent enough offensively. Bit lucky for his assist but we needed someone to try and go past a man. I remember seeing Sven try Beckham in a similar role. You need legs in your midfield at international level, and especially in that kind of climate. Perhaps the plan was for Gerrard to sit deep and watch the ball to Suarez but Suarez was so mobile that it was pointless. You're assuming that one of the worlds best off the ball is going to stay still and sit behind a defensive midfielder. Naive tactics. Yup that's why teams playing a registered tend to have 2 players in front of the deepest midfielder if he's creative. Watch France tonight who play 433 but with Pogba and Matuidi covering a lot of the ground in front of Cabaye This is also apart of the reason why Liverpool fell apart at the end of the season they ran out of legs Henderson was knackered and Allan and lucas aren't good enough players all around to play the box to box role Yeah, it just doesn't work with a midfield 2 like that. Id only look to play someone that deep if they were Makelele quality, other than that I'd prefer Wilshere in there who can play deep but has enough awareness of the role to know when to move up. I don't think Wilshere is good enough to play in a midfield two at international level personally. In fact I don't think any of our central midfielders are. We either go 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot forming a shield or we go 4-3-3 with given our midfielders an anchor I don't think we have the players to play either system particularly well mind. Yeah I'd look at 4-3-3 because you have the flexibility with it to pull your wide men back deep. No idea about who to play the deeper role but ahead of him I'd have Wilshere and Barkley. Priority for the Euros for me would be to have Barkley and Sturridge develop a very good understanding of each other's play. Yup I think that's the biggest problem a complete lack of players who can play the deeper midfield role. It's more apart of the endemic problem throughout English football though, we don't excel at having players playing specialised roles Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Henderson always seems so close to his midfield partner. It's like he can't get through a game without holding hands as if he is a terrified kid. He's only in there to "be busy" which is basically "make up the numbers". 20 years ago he'd be classed as a nothing player but now he's an automatic starter for his country. He's there to make up for the fact Gerrard can't run, he's essential IMO. Gerrard shouldn't be playing, which removes the need for Henderson. Quite easy really. As the youths may enunciate: boom, head shot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 You have 3 games to get out of the group stage, we've played 66.66% (recurring) of them. I think a judgement can be made tbh. Thanks Nees Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 You have 3 games to get out of the group stage, we've played 66.66% (recurring) of them. I think a judgement can be made tbh. Thanks Nees No problem Joey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Those digits would have got away with it too if it wasn't for that pesky Nee. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Been saying for months Gerrard-Henderson would leave the side vulnerableas a defensive unit, see Liverpool minus Lucas. As overrated as I think it is it might have been worth taking Jones to add a bit of insurance in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Gareth.... Ba..... Barry? Anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Been saying for months Gerrard-Henderson would leave the side vulnerableas a defensive unit, see Liverpool minus Lucas. As overrated as I think it is it might have been worth taking Jones to add a bit of insurance in the middle. They did take Jones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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