Tactics: The Return of the Large & Large combo

[CaliMag]

After the Reading game I was talking to a mate who was very critical of our attack including the goals scored in open play.

 

His point being that we are never going to get promoted or be a good team without getting behind the defense. He argued that most modern teams that are good (so yeah, we are talking about the top four or five teams of each top leagues in Europe - a bit away from the CCC) have fast paced attacks where the scorer of the ball has gotten behind the defense at pace after working the ball up (no hoofing it or deep crosses to marked targets).

 

I felt that our hands are tied with the squad we have and that we are reverting to the intended ideal of Ruud Gullit of the large and large combination. When Gullit took over he surveyed his assets and decided that with Shearer being the best target man around (before they fell out) he decided to also buy Duncan Ferguson who was probably the second best target man in the league. For all of the talk of Sexy football we actually had a team under Gullit that was ideally suited to the long lob and having Duncan knock it down with Shearer coming int to take it in front of the defence for a shot.

 

It didn't work.

 

Mostly I would argue because of the fact that Duncan was continually crocked, but also with Alan stationary and Gullit's training for the Large & Large combo he was learning bad habits. As SBR said Alan was always playing with his back to defenders getting marked out of the game.

 

When SBR came in he was able to actually use the Large & Large combo effectively only once (again because of Duncan being on the sick list almost continuously until we shipped him back to Everton) and that was the 3-0 win over Man U (Feb 2000).

 

The difference in that game was we had a midfield player that could also win everything in the air (Speed) and we actually won that game by physically overpowering Man United (no small feat considering Jaap Stam was marking Duncan). The first goal was - goal kick to Speed ---> headed ball to Shearer ---> headed ball to Duncan ---> reverse volley from 20 yards.

 

Duncan had one skill that he was sublime at, and that was the knockdown. He won everything in the air and could knock down teh ball to an onrushing attacker. Could Carroll master this skill ocnsidering how good his aerial ability is so far? Could we build a team entirely around the physical presence of Shola and Carroll with Vuckic (also a big lad) and Ranger (ditto) deputising?

 

I am not sure if it will work personally. Reading's defenders were too easily pushed aside. But I am also not sure we have a choice and think we are forced down this path unless we start buying players.

 

 

[Neil]

....but this is the Championship, not the Premiership.

[Heron]

Shearer and Ferdinand < Carroll and Shola

[CaliMag]

I should probably just delete this thread already.

 

[Kaizero]

I should probably just delete this thread already.

 

 

In Soviet Russia, this thread deletes you.

[Ronaldo]

What worries me is that both will basically be relying on fantastic service to score goals, we certainly do not have an abundance of creativity going forward.

 

That partnership will not get us promoted, Carroll is a 1 in 4 man in the Championship and Shola may hit 20 but it's unlikely.

 

Xisco needs a chance, i'd happily give him 90 minutes on wednesday and tell him to stay on the shoulder of the last man, he's quick, and has a good first touch - Probably just what we'll need against the more physical defences who wont lose much sleep over the propsect of facing Shola and Carroll

[cubaricho]

Xisco needs a chance, i'd happily give him 90 minutes on wednesday and tell him to stay on the shoulder of the last man, he's quick, and has a good first touch - Probably just what we'll need against the more physical defences who wont lose much sleep over the propsect of facing Shola and Carroll

 

This.  I really do think that Xisco is a class above what we have and just hasn't been given a fair crack.  Once he does I really do think he'll come good.

[Heron]

People are very quick to criticise Xisco when he hasn't had anything that resembles a chance for us yet..

[cubaricho]

I'd also love to possibly get Lovenkrands back.  Him and Xisco up front would do some wonders I think, especially if we had a Guthrie/Barton CM partnership with Jonas and another ball-playing midfielder.  Lots of movement and passing ability. 

 

Also, if we had a better back-up at LB, I'd possibly even try a midfield that looked something like Jonas - Barton - Guthrie - Enrique with Xisco and Carroll/Ameobi/Ranger/New, Quicker striker up-front.

[oldtype]

People who've watched reserve matches frequently have said that Xisco is pretty much dogshit...

[cubaricho]

People who've watched reserve matches frequently have said that Xisco is pretty much dogshit...

 

Like any other striker, he thrives on service.  When someone like Barton is feeding you the ball rather than some 18 year old kid you're bound to score a few more goals.  Being a striker has to be one of the most thankless jobs when the majority of your job depends totally on the team around you.  You can't put the ball in the net if you don't get it. (eg: Owen)

[oldtype]

People who've watched reserve matches frequently have said that Xisco is pretty much dogshit...

 

Like any other striker, he thrives on service.  When someone like Barton is feeding you the ball rather than some 18 year old kid you're bound to score a few more goals.  Being a striker has to be one of the most thankless jobs when the majority of your job depends totally on the team around you.  You can't put the ball in the net if you don't get it. (eg: Owen)

 

He actually scored plenty, I think the comments were more directed towards his general play.

[Fatwax]

People who've watched reserve matches frequently have said that Xisco is pretty much dogshit...

 

Like any other striker, he thrives on service.  When someone like Barton is feeding you the ball rather than some 18 year old kid you're bound to score a few more goals.  Being a striker has to be one of the most thankless jobs when the majority of your job depends totally on the team around you.  You can't put the ball in the net if you don't get it. (eg: Owen)

 

He actually scored plenty, I think the comments were more directed towards his general play.

 

He didn't score plenty.. I remember one match he scored 2, but as Binnsy will say his general play looked weak and directionless and although Cubaricho is saying that he's only getting service off reserve/youth players he's also only playing against reserve/youth players. As I've said constantly, he definitely has ability.. it's whether he's willing to adapt it to the English game.

 

He's not a goalscoring forward either.. he's much more of a targetman that plays with his back to goal with hold-up play and bringing other players into the attack. This club lacks a true goalscorer.

[CaliMag]

He's not a goalscoring forward either.. he's much more of a targetman that plays with his back to goal with hold-up play and bringing other players into the attack. This club lacks a true goalscorer.

 

That being the case... he would not then fit as a partner to either Carrol or Shola.

[Colocho]

I've got no problem with having two target men up front together. I don't see why we should to be honest ... in this league anyway.

 

As long as we have the likes of Raylor, Enrique, Gutierrez and now Simpson putting crosses in from the wing, as well as some creativity from our central midfielders they can do well together.

[merlin]

After the Reading game I was talking to a mate who was very critical of our attack including the goals scored in open play.

 

His point being that we are never going to get promoted or be a good team without getting behind the defense. He argued that most modern teams that are good (so yeah, we are talking about the top four or five teams of each top leagues in Europe - a bit away from the CCC) have fast paced attacks where the scorer of the ball has gotten behind the defense at pace after working the ball up (no hoofing it or deep crosses to marked targets).

 

I felt that our hands are tied with the squad we have and that we are reverting to the intended ideal of Ruud Gullit of the large and large combination. When Gullit took over he surveyed his assets and decided that with Shearer being the best target man around (before they fell out) he decided to also buy Duncan Ferguson who was probably the second best target man in the league. For all of the talk of Sexy football we actually had a team under Gullit that was ideally suited to the long lob and having Duncan knock it down with Shearer coming int to take it in front of the defence for a shot.

 

It didn't work.

 

Mostly I would argue because of the fact that Duncan was continually crocked, but also with Alan stationary and Gullit's training for the Large & Large combo he was learning bad habits. As SBR said Alan was always playing with his back to defenders getting marked out of the game.

 

When SBR came in he was able to actually use the Large & Large combo effectively only once (again because of Duncan being on the sick list almost continuously until we shipped him back to Everton) and that was the 3-0 win over Man U (Feb 2000).

 

The difference in that game was we had a midfield player that could also win everything in the air (Speed) and we actually won that game by physically overpowering Man United (no small feat considering Jaap Stam was marking Duncan). The first goal was - goal kick to Speed ---> headed ball to Shearer ---> headed ball to Duncan ---> reverse volley from 20 yards.

 

Duncan had one skill that he was sublime at, and that was the knockdown. He won everything in the air and could knock down teh ball to an onrushing attacker. Could Carroll master this skill ocnsidering how good his aerial ability is so far? Could we build a team entirely around the physical presence of Shola and Carroll with Vuckic (also a big lad) and Ranger (ditto) deputising?

 

I am not sure if it will work personally. Reading's defenders were too easily pushed aside. But I am also not sure we have a choice and think we are forced down this path unless we start buying players.

 

 

 

A very interesting post, Calimag and you make some good points.

 

Firstly, your friend is correct - in the modern game, pace(combined with good close control)is vital in ALL parts of the team but especially in attack. You need fast forwards but also, good midfielders who have the pace and endurance to burst into and around the penalty area as well as linking with their defence; Terry McDermott was superb at doing this when he played for us and then Liverpool back in the 70s - in fact, he was probably ahead of his time as a player(which is why Liverpool employed his skills so well) although the Dutch sides of the period(Ajax, Feyenoord and their national sides in WC 74 & 78) also had players able to do this(Neeskens was a great example).

 

The time-honoured way of getting past a defence was by using wingers to pull the ball back from the by-line(still the most effective and dangerous play in the game if done correctly), but managers have found ways of negating the impact of specialist wingers by employing more players in midfield to stifle supply to them. In the late 60s/early 70s after England won the WC WITHOUT specialist wingers, their use began to fade so there were less and less players keen to develop specialist wing skills even though Shankly's Liverpool side of the period had TWO in Callaghan and Thompson. Because managers were less keen to play this type of player, they became more & more difficult to find . Eddie Gray of Leeds was possibly the last famous instance of a classic winger's display at a major final when he destroyed Ron Harris in the first Leeds-Chelsea FA Final of 1970...

 

If you come further towards the situation that now prevails, Rob Lee was probably the nearest thing we had to a winger in KK's sides of 1993-97,until Gillespie came along, but he was used more as a 'withdrawn' winger/midfielder from the time we got promoted ; Lee possessed a great shot AND a good engine to support the attack and defence, whereas Gillespie was more of a 'typical' winger who beat defenders on the flanks with pace and got crosses in.

 

Regarding Gullit's use of two big strikers in Shearer and Ferguson, some of this was down to Al himself who felt that Fergie would take some of the weight off him, which he did to some extent but we never really saw the best of Ferguson and neither did Everton. Had we signed him directly from Rangers BEFORE he got involved in off-field controversy and injury, he would have been devastating with Shearer ; I once saw him terrorize the German defence whilst playing for Scotland as a 21 year old.Not only was he good in the air, but had good control for a big man as you rightly point out by using the game V Man U in Feb 2000

as an example. His goal, the first of our 3, was brilliant, controlling a right W cross on the edge of the box with his right foot and flicking it over Stam to volley in with his left....but it was probably his best performance in a B & W shirt overall.

The two DID tend to get in each other's way, but Shearer was injured when Fergie first arrived as far as I remember(and Fergie was too, quite often..).

 

On to today;s side - I reckon they are using Carroll & Ameobi together because they have little choice - Owen and Martins have gone, so there is really no-one else who fits the nippy-striker role. As your friend says, I do not believe the two have enough complementary skills to make it a success at the top level but they will do a short-term job until other managers work out their weaknesses and mark them with players who will nullify them. Of the two, I rate Carroll the best prospect despite Ameobi's hat-trick(the only one of his career, incidentally)because Carroll works harder, has a better first touch(although that needs a load of work!) and is more threatening in the air.....unless we sign a proven striker who is more mobile, Ranger will probably get his chance alongside Carroll as he seems more mobile than Ameobi.Carroll is still very raw but has time to improve, which is probably why W.Ham were interested in him.

However, we WILL never be a top side until -

 

1. Our movement/passing improves AT SPEED

 

2.We start REALLY getting behind defences to create chances - high balls lumped into the box from a spot half-way between the half-way and bye-lines are meat & drink for defenders ; this is why Jonas frustrates me so much because he quite often beats a defender on the flanks in a good position to cross early, then tries to beat the defender again, giving the opposition defence time to mark our strikers/midfielder(IF any have got into the box....!!)

 

To do this, we need the addition of a pacy skillful flank player(not easy to find, esp at this level), and more emphasis on movement/individual skill improvement - some of the current side will NEVER be able to do these things, so there is a stack of hard work ahead before we can get anywhere near being a decent side to make any impact in the Prem when and IF promotion happens.

 

 

 

 

[CaliMag]

Well Merlin to be honest I am just looking at promotion - The Premiership seems a long way off. If we can train Jonas and or Enrique to play on the wings and cross early enough with Carroll knocking it down for an onrushing striker (hopefully someone who can hit the ball hard) maybe we could fool enough of the managers long wnough to get us into a leading position in the table to get promoted.

 

Carroll does win eevrything in the air. He's big and has a leap, we should expliot that. Since this is the CCC and there is no time for elaborate tactics or training we should just get him to specialise IMO. I agree that he seems a better prospect that Shola. But then maybe Shola is peaking right now (right age for that) and will actually work for us at this level (but somehow didn't for Stoke). Shola got his first hat trick - good for him. Shearer's first hattrick was at the age of 18... against Arsenal... in his first game as a starter. Shola will never be great, but I hope he is adequate.

 

I am not familiar enough with the CCC to know if we could overpower most defenses with a Large & Large like we did against Reading, but I am willing to give it a try... seeing as we don't have a choice.

 

For the record I do not think Xisco will come good for us nor do I think we will actually be playing real football (You know... that fancy passing thing you mentioned) this season since it will be based on playing the players we have fit and I would suspect that by November we'll have 4-5 players playing out of position. So I say count on the knock down, play two big lads up front, get Smith and Barton to beat the sh!te of the opposition and lets just play dirty, nasty, ugly tacking long ball and hope for the best.

[Ronaldo]

Whenever I watched Xisco in La Liga (probably 6 or 7 times tbh) he always looked a genuine goal scoring threat and I was quite pleased to find out we'd signed him. Likewise against Hull (yes, I know) on his debut it looked like only a matter of time before he'd score and sure enough he did.

 

These games COULD be the exception, but we'll never know until he gets any sort of run in the side. What's not up for debate is that he adds much needed mobility to the attack. Not quite blistering pace but strong and constant running.

[CaliMag]

The only game I got to see live last year was the Blackburn game (commute is a bitch... etc.) and I paid special attention to Xisco because I knew the least about him. He ran and impressed me with his effort, but he seemed aimless and needed direction... which he wasn't getting from Owen who did his usual disgruntled thing or Duff who worked hard that game but tried to do it on his own. Well now we are in the CCC and we don't have time to practice tactics, formation or work on a "plan." We just have to work with what's there and I think Xisco is lacking - which I understand is completely (and unfairly) biased by that Blackburn game (and his limited ther appearances), but I am guessing Houghton, Shearer and Kinnear have all agreed with me to some extent from what they saw in training. 

 

Mobility without direction was Martins' biggest weakness and we couldn't fix him... so how are we going to fix Xisco?

[TRon]

Playing with two big men isn't all that different to playing with any other strike pair - they both still need to have a good understanding. Ferguson and Shearer worked far better together than Ferdinand and Shearer in my view even though the goals scored suggests otherwise. Ferguson was a very good player on the floor and had a great football brain. Carroll is nowhere near his class although he has some raw elements of his game and his linking with Ameobi is hit and miss at the moment. This is the Championship though, so they will both cause problems for defenders, the key might be the supporting roles the attacking midfielders can play. There needs to be players arriving in the penalty area in support of the strikers to read the flick ons and hold up play. Nolan, Jonas and whoever replaces Duff have a big responsibility here.

 

 

[Guest Stephen927]

I'm sure Xisco gets more than enough chances to impress in training. I wouldn't disrupt the team that won 3-0 to accomodate him, possibly a sub appearance here and there if the game looks comfortably in our favour.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Andy Carroll is the target man, has a decent first touch and wins most things in the air. He's a bit prone to dropping too deep though when winning balls, and we don't have a midfielder that naturally wants to get forward (even though we've got Nolan and Barton) to pick up the knockdowns and link ups. I don't think he'll score many goals in open play, but will probably steal a few on corners/free kicks.

[Dinho lad]

The first goal was - goal kick to Speed ---> headed ball to Shearer ---> headed ball to Duncan ---> reverse volley from 20 yards.

 

It was Rob Lee.

 

 

[merlin]

Well Merlin to be honest I am just looking at promotion - The Premiership seems a long way off. If we can train Jonas and or Enrique to play on the wings and cross early enough with Carroll knocking it down for an onrushing striker (hopefully someone who can hit the ball hard) maybe we could fool enough of the managers long wnough to get us into a leading position in the table to get promoted.

 

Carroll does win eevrything in the air. He's big and has a leap, we should expliot that. Since this is the CCC and there is no time for elaborate tactics or training we should just get him to specialise IMO. I agree that he seems a better prospect that Shola. But then maybe Shola is peaking right now (right age for that) and will actually work for us at this level (but somehow didn't for Stoke). Shola got his first hat trick - good for him. Shearer's first hattrick was at the age of 18... against Arsenal... in his first game as a starter. Shola will never be great, but I hope he is adequate.

 

I am not familiar enough with the CCC to know if we could overpower most defenses with a Large & Large like we did against Reading, but I am willing to give it a try... seeing as we don't have a choice.

 

For the record I do not think Xisco will come good for us nor do I think we will actually be playing real football (You know... that fancy passing thing you mentioned) this season since it will be based on playing the players we have fit and I would suspect that by November we'll have 4-5 players playing out of position. So I say count on the knock down, play two big lads up front, get Smith and Barton to beat the sh!te of the opposition and lets just play dirty, nasty, ugly tacking long ball and hope for the best.

 

I know you were primarily thinking of how to obtain promotion, but when we got promoted in 1993, KK made comparatively few changes to the side and we still managed to finish third in our first season  in the

Prem  - this was because the basic play and ability in the side were good enough to make an impact with the introduction of a few players . David Kelly left(much to many people's surprise and disappointment)but was replaced by Peter Beardsley, whose extra skill was instrumental in creating a record 41 goals for Andy Cole...there were very few other major signings until later in the season.

You cannot imagine the basis of THIS team doing anything like that even if they scraped promotion this year, without major signings in some numbers....

 

The point I am making is that a team CAN play fast, effective football in the CCC - we did in 92-93, going 11 games on a winning streak from the off ; the football got better as we went along(I seem to remember the Luton game at SJP as being the start of really flowing fast passing) until we started to hammer people(Barnsley 6-1, Brentford 5-1, Tranmere 0-3 away and, of course, Leicester(unforgettably)7-1 at SJP as we were confirmed as Champs in May 93.

It was obvious that we wouldn't struggle in the Prem although we did better than most imagined before it started), whereas this team would come straight back down unless drastic improvements were made.

 

The reason we played so well for most of the season was that KK was/is a great fan of 5-a-side in training(many fans will confirm that as we used to get more fans watching training at Maiden Castle(Durham) than many Lge 2 sides ever get !!). This sort of training naturally improves movement/passing. KK also signed players like Cole, Venison, Bracewell and Beresford who he knew would adapt to the Prem without any trouble.

 

As to the Large & Large question, it is worth remembering that Kelly and Peacock(then Cole) who were our first choice front 2, were NOT particularly big guys or especially good in the air - it is more a question of all round ability in the side than any particular system. However, I tend to agree that Xisco will NOT be the answer although we need to see a bit more of him at this level - probably as a sub.

[jep]

this is why Jonas frustrates me so much because he quite often beats a defender on the flanks in a good position to cross early, then tries to beat the defender again, giving the opposition defence time to mark our strikers/midfielder(IF any have got into the box....!!)

 

 

He's not a regular type of winger that gets to the byline and puts in crosses, but rather the pullback type that plays it short and gets goalscoring opportunities for players on the edge of (and around) the box, it seems. I can't remember him putting in a good cross, but whenever he's got the ball at his feet it seems like it's really hard to get it off him for the opposing defenders - he really can be a joy to watch at times. The reason he gets alot of flak, I think, is because he runs himself into a corner - and this happens because there's noone following up, or he can't find and pick the pass because his teammates are not in the positions he expects them to be.

 

I really don't think he's used to the english style of play yet, and I'm betting quite alot of that is down to the non-existent tactics we've had since Kinnear came on, and obviously the lack of drive and pace in our central midfield, noone making runs forward etc.