World on alert Germans marching again!

[NG32]

Yep, you can only play for one team.

[Parky]

Isn't it just that more often than not the bigger more aggresive lads get picked up by clubs due to the nature of the PL. I've heard it many talented kids are rejected for being 'too small'.

[Wullie]

I've heard it too. About a dozen posts ago in fact.

[TaylorJ_01]

God, this whole 'What is wrong with English football' by 'x' is going to get tiring. Unfortunately nothing will happen. The physicality of the English game isn't going to change any time soon.

[juniatmoko]

 

Filthy German b******.

 

WTF.. he eat that? O.o

[mrmojorisin75]

God, this whole 'What is wrong with English football' by 'x' is going to get tiring. Unfortunately nothing will happen. The physicality of the English game isn't going to change any time soon.

very true

[Keefaz]

Maybe a better approach would be to ask: how can we get the best out of the English system? We're never going to be like Brazil or Holland. Play to our strengths: pace, strength, aerial ability, etc.

[mrmojorisin75]

Maybe a better approach would be to ask: how can we get the best out of the English system? We're never going to be like Brazil or Holland. Play to our strengths: pace, strength, aerial ability, etc.

Posted in another thread that's the way to go, personally i don't think it'll ever win us a WC as the South Americans would eat it up but it might be enough to fluke a Euro's a la Manu & Chelski getting good results in the CL by playing a high tempo physical game.  Eventually class will tell but we're more likely to succeed playing our way than pretending to be Italy and failing.

[Wullie]

This physicality can't be that much of a hindrance if the majority of players in the top league are foreign. Don't think it's too much to ask that we produce footballers rather than just cloggers that we then add foreign flair to. The north east is supposed to be football mad - in my lifetime we've not produced five players capable of playing consistently well in central midfield in the top flight (where technique is most important). That's got fuck all to do with physicality, it's disgraceful really.

[Doctor Zaius]

Isn't it just that more often than not the bigger more aggresive lads get picked up by clubs due to the nature of the PL. I've heard it many talented kids are rejected for being 'too small'.

 

But half the time, these lads are only bigger and more aggressive because they're more developed than the other kids their age. These lads that get picked up as kids are bigger, stronger and rely on their physical presence somewhat, which is only natural because if your bigger than everyone else your going to play to that. At the age they get picked up, touch, technique and other technical skills dont matter that much.

 

The problem then arises a few years down the line, the other kids catch up with them and they're no longer giants compared to everyone else and haven't got a massive physical presence anymore. Add that to the fact that technical skills become more important and these kids just arn't to the standard thats good enough and definitely no longer miles better than people their own age.

[Doctor Zaius]

Maybe a better approach would be to ask: how can we get the best out of the English system? We're never going to be like Brazil or Holland . Play to our strengths: pace, strength, aerial ability, etc.

 

I see no reason why we cant be like Holland. It's all about their system and how they are taught imo. Fairenough Brazil because our society is totally different, but Holland or France there's no reason we cant replicate what they do.

[Keefaz]

I wonder if it's possible to work backwards from a player and see how he developed? You take a Sheringham who was in many ways an atypical English player: slow, but read the game miles better than anyone else, brilliant touch and range of passing. How did he get to be like that when so few English players are?

[Parky]

This physicality can't be that much of a hindrance if the majority of players in the top league are foreign. Don't think it's too much to ask that we produce footballers rather than just cloggers that we then add foreign flair to. The north east is supposed to be football mad - in my lifetime we've not produced five players capable of playing consistently well in central midfield in the top flight (where technique is most important). That's got fuck all to do with physicality, it's disgraceful really.

Maybe a better approach would be to ask: how can we get the best out of the English system? We're never going to be like Brazil or Holland . Play to our strengths: pace, strength, aerial ability, etc.

 

I see no reason why we cant be like Holland. It's all about their system and how they are taught imo. Fairenough Brazil because our society is totally different, but Holland or France there's no reason we cant replicate what they do.

 

In Holland the 2/3 top clubs have really fantastic academies and IMO France with their national academy is a decade ahead of us. The Man Utd and West Ham academies I guess have been the most prolific in England.

 

 

Jérémie Aliadière

Nicolas Anelka

Habib Bamogo

Sébastien Bassong

Habib Bellaïd

Hatem Ben Arfa

Jimmy Briand      

Garra Dembélé

Cheik Doukouré

Abou Diaby      

Issiar Dia June     

William Gallas      

Thierry Henry

Jacques Faty

Ricardo Faty

Jirès Kembo Ekoko

Jonathan Martins

Blaise Matuidi          

Mourad Meghni

Gabriel Obertan

 

 

France U21

Grégory Sertic August 5, 1989 (1989-08-05) (age 20) France ES Viry-Châtillon 2003–2005 France Bordeaux France Bordeaux France France U21

Jérôme Rothen March 31, 1978 (1978-03-31) (age 32) France Versailles FC 1991–1994 France Caen Turkey Ankaragücü France France

Louis Saha August 8, 1978 (1978-08-08) (age 31) 1991–1994 France Metz England Everton France France

Moussa Sow January 19, 1986 (1986-01-19) (age 24) 1999–2001 France Mantes France Rennes

Quentin Westberg August 6, 1985 (1985-08-06) (age 24) 2000–2003 France Troyes France Troyes United States USA U20

 

 

[Guest Phil K]

Maybe a better approach would be to ask: how can we get the best out of the English system? We're never going to be like Brazil or Holland . Play to our strengths: pace, strength, aerial ability, etc.

 

I see no reason why we cant be like Holland. It's all about their system and how they are taught imo.

No, there ISN'T any reason why we can't do the same as Holland.

But there are too many "old hands" with no ability whatsoever in charge of academies up and down the country purely because they are ex-footballers, or friends of the manager.

In Holland it's people who have a history of doing it properly, and know what they're on about.

Whereas here - look at the peabrained footballers of now, obsessed with Bling and their mobile phones. In a few years some of them will expect to get jobs with academies here. The kids would do better having to teach themselves.

Ex footballers rarely make good ANYTHING in England.

The Dutch and Germans know that and suplement their ex-footballers with people with more knowledge than how to get on their Facebook account.

[Exiled in Texas]

Here is an interesting article that talks about how the youth and academy system is done in Holland and then compares and constrasts to the US and England. Warning: This article is very long... like HTT long.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?scp=4&sq=dutch%20soccer&st=cse

 

 

 

Excellent article - it shows how a club funded academy can look long term (one big sale funds several years of production) and control the player development if they truely believe in the process and peak the players at older ages, compared to the US Pay-to-Play process where the parents and in control and demand short term results with each seasons results.

[Village Idiot]

Here is an interesting article that talks about how the youth and academy system is done in Holland and then compares and constrasts to the US and England. Warning: This article is very long... like HTT long.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?scp=4&sq=dutch%20soccer&st=cse

 

 

 

Excellent article - it shows how a club funded academy can look long term (one big sale funds several years of production) and control the player development if they truely believe in the process and peak the players at older ages, compared to the US Pay-to-Play process where the parents and in control and demand short term results with each seasons results.

 

We have a very similar, although less radical, setup. Which is to be expected given the Dutch influence in our club. It helps we are the absolute biggest fish in Catalonia so every boy dreams of playing for us and we don't have the competition of an Ajax, PSV etc... in the same area.

 

Surely your lot could eventually do something similar in the northeast. You pretty much have that area for yourselves, although not being a local I might be wrong.

[Exiled in Texas]

I wonder what the Ajax academy costs to run on an annual basis - It can't be cheap, and if they are relying on selling a Wesley Sneijder every few years to break even that's quite a gamble.

 

We can only dream about this long term view of player development - meanwhile, the U10s are playing the mackems today and we'd better beat them 

[Village Idiot]

FWIW Barça's academy costs us €15m a year to run. It isn't that much for a club our size tbh.

[Gash]

It's easier tot just go to Barca's academy, nick their best players then sell them on for a big amount, probably back to them though...

[Exiled in Texas]

That's peanuts to Barca based on what it produces, but imagine a club spending that for 10 years while the grow in the process starting with the current crop of U8s. 

 

Not hard to see why a club decides to buy a player for 15M rather than gamble on producing one.

[Village Idiot]

Well, there's some returns. Players that don't make the grade are sold to other clubs, even the ones that leave because they don't have pro contracts (Arsenal  ) still command tribunal fees that cut down the yearly costs.

[OzzieMandias]

Here is an interesting article that talks about how the youth and academy system is done in Holland and then compares and constrasts to the US and England. Warning: This article is very long... like HTT long.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html?scp=4&sq=dutch%20soccer&st=cse

 

 

 

Excellent article - it shows how a club funded academy can look long term (one big sale funds several years of production) and control the player development if they truely believe in the process and peak the players at older ages, compared to the US Pay-to-Play process where the parents and in control and demand short term results with each seasons results.

 

We have a very similar, although less radical, setup. Which is to be expected given the Dutch influence in our club. It helps we are the absolute biggest fish in Catalonia so every boy dreams of playing for us and we don't have the competition of an Ajax, PSV etc... in the same area.

 

Surely your lot could eventually do something similar in the northeast. You pretty much have that area for yourselves, although not being a local I might be wrong.

 

Well, us and Sunderland.

 

In the 1980s and early '90s our catchment area threw up some great footballers -- notably Beardsley, Waddle, Gascoigne, Shearer, Steve Bruce, Bryan Robson, but also many others scattered throughout the leagues. Most were developed not through NUFC, but by Wallsend Boys Club in the east of the city. It's an area which I think we'd all like to see the club taking more seriously.

[indi]

Apologies if this has been posted before, but I'm not reading 60 pages.

 

 

By Aimee Lewis

 

The paparazzi pictures of the likes of Wayne Rooney and Frank Lampard relaxing on a beach in some luxury resort will no doubt pepper our newspapers and magazines in the forthcoming weeks.

 

Most, if not all, of the England squad will eventually return home to once again prepare for another season of toil in the familiar surroundings of the Premier League.

 

Rooney will head to Manchester United's Carrington training ground, a mere 30-odd miles from his hometown of Liverpool while John Terry will don Chelsea's colours, the club whose youth team he joined from West Ham in 1995.

 

And therein lies the national team's problem, according to Chris Waddle.

 

The former England and Tottenham winger, one of France's favourite adopted sons after his successful spell with Marseille between 1989 and 1992, believes the helter-skelter pace of the Premier League does not equip players sufficiently for international football and thinks the country's most talented stars should ditch their home comforts and head for Europe.

 

"Technically, it would improve them," Waddle told BBC Radio 5 live. "It's an eye-opener. You think it's a game of football, like it is back home, but it's not.

 

"When Marseille got the ball, we played patient football, it was about possession, it was like a waltz. English football is based on the Charleston. The Premier League has always been a basketball league - you attack then they attack - but other leagues don't play like that.

 

"International football is about keeping the ball. My three years in Marseille taught me so much about football, which I would never have learnt in England."

 

Not one member of England manager Fabio Capello's World Cup squad in South Africa this summer had experience of playing club football anywhere other than in their own country.

 

But then there has never been a mass exodus of English players eager to tread on foreign pitches. A number have succeeded: Gary Lineker (Barcelona, Grampus Eight), David Platt (Bari, Juventus, Sampdoria), Steve McManaman (Real Madrid), Kevin Keegan (Hamburg) and David Beckham (Real Madrid, LA Galaxy, AC Milan), to name a few.

 

But an Englishman playing abroad is rare these days. Few have dared to follow in Waddle's footsteps.

 

Currently, former Blackburn striker Matt Derbyshire is at Olympiakos in Greece while Darius Vassell, who started his career with Aston Villa, has just spent a season playing for Ankaragucu in Turkey.

 

The sole Englishman operating in one of Europe's major leagues, other than the Premier League, is ex-Liverpool winger Jermaine Pennant.

 

Pennant is just about to start his second season in La Liga. The 27-year-old might not have set the Spanish league alight during what was an injury-plagued first season - he made 25 appearances for Real Zaragoza - but believes the experience has already improved him.

 

"Not many players get a chance of playing in La Liga," Pennant told BBC Sport. "This was a once-in-a-lifetime chance.

 

"I'd say the Premier League is a bit quicker and more physical but the Spanish league is definitely more technical - and that makes it more of an enjoyment to play in.

 

"You've obviously got your Barcelonas and Real Madrids but lower down the league in Spain is better than the Premier League. It's a great league, every team is very gifted.

 

"I got to play against Real and Barca. It was the first time I'd played against Barcelona for the full 90 minutes. The experience was great and I can't wait to go again.

 

"When we played them I think I touched the ball five times in one hour. When I came off the pitch, I thought I needed to go to hospital. I couldn't breathe. I thought I needed new pair of lungs!"

 

The winger, notorious for his poor timekeeping (in February there were reports he was sent home from training after arriving late for the third time in two weeks), is even looking forward to pre-season training, which starts next week.

 

"I'm fully fit and I'll be ready for pre-season. It's not as hard as I thought it would be. It's a lot of football and less running," added Pennant, the first Englishman to play for Zaragoza.

 

"For sure it's easier than in England. In England there's a lot of running, a lot of bleep tests. In Spain they don't do it. I think if people read this they're going to come to La Liga now!"

 

Dutch legend Johan Cruyff once questioned why so few English, indeed British, players have succeeded abroad, saying: "There's something going on here, something strange."

 

Waddle - nicknamed 'Magic Chris' by the Marseille fans - cited an unwillingness to embrace a new culture and the inability to learn a new language as reasons for this.

 

 

"When I signed for Marseille, someone asked me if I was going to learn French. 'I wouldn't' they said, 'I'd make them speak English'. And that sums us up. We don't want to learn anything. We don't want to copy.

 

"Gary Lineker learnt to do it. Bobby Robson learnt more by going abroad. Steve McClaren will come back to England and he'll know so much more."

 

Pennant is still slowly overcoming the language barrier, although he admits, even after nearly a year, he is finding learning Spanish "very difficult".

 

"I understand more than I speak it," he admitted. "When they give me instructions I understand. The communication on the training pitch and on the football pitch is not a problem, it's just the day-to-day life. Having a conversation with someone is a bit difficult."

 

Pennant, who had a troubled time in his early twenties (he was jailed for drink-driving in 2004 during which time it was revealed he had trouble reading and writing), has persevered longer than most.

 

Former Liverpool and Aston Villa striker Stan Collymore lasted only three games for Oviedo before deciding he could not adapt to a new way of life and a new way of playing.

 

Like Burnley defender Tyrone Mears, who spent a season with Marseille back in 2008, Pennant believes he has settled quicker than expected because of the camaraderie among his team-mates.

 

The Zaragoza squad along with manager Jose Aurelio Gay and his backroom staff socialise together twice a month, usually for a meal, and talk about matters other than football, allowing Pennant to get to know his team-mates "a bit better".

 

"It does help a lot," Pennant commented. "At other clubs I've been at the only time the team really goes out like that is at Christmas or for a charity dinner."

 

However, encouraging players to take leave for pastures new is no panacea for England. After all, just one member of the gifted young Germany squad, which inflicted that humiliating 4-1 defeat on a pedestrian-looking England, plays outside of the Bundesliga.

 

Numerous inquests into England's World Cup exit seem to suggest that the country's woes are more deep rooted, but Waddle and Pennant's experiences suggest moving abroad might aid the national team's recovery.

Story from BBC SPORT:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8727084.stm

 

Published: 2010/06/30 17:24:22 GMT

 

© BBC MMX

 

Apart from the bit about Germany I think that's pretty much spot on. It's not too many foreigners in the English league, it's too few Englishmen in the foreign leagues.

[Wullie]

Every member of the Italy squad that won the last World Cup played in Italy. I think English players would benefit from going abroad but it's certainly not the main problem, it's deeper than that. If they've grown up in the English system, they're probably fairly rubbish technically anyway. It might not be that players won't go abroad but that foreign clubs don't want them.

[Village Idiot]

I don't think we have ever had so many members of the Spanish squad playing (or having spent a significant part of their careers) abroad. I think people like Torres, Arbeloa, Piqué and Cesc have improved immensely from the experience