Guest Dontooner Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I'd like to see how we would play with some better quality in defence. I'm not ready to jump on Pardews back yet. Williamson becomes worse by the game, even his headers are directed straight toward the opposition. Simpson whilst steady enough in defence, just isn't good enough in the opposition half. Santon is also very raw. We looked a much better side with Taylor and Colo playing centre half. Hopefully in the summer we will invest in some quality in our back four. Poor from Pardew tonight. We were having a legitimate go at Arsenal in the first half so really, if he had used the same tactics that had served us pretty well in the first half then it would have arguably led to us getting a result imo (nicking a win that is). Those second half tactics were completely atrocious and uncalled for. By adopting the long ball tactic, we basically decided to gift Arsenal with a lot of (too much) possession which, of course, led to a barrage of attacks from them. Such tactics also led to the entire midfield not being fully utilised and that was clearly to our detriment - it meant that Ben Arfa and indeed, our midfield became less influential as the minutes went by. To be brutally honest, we didn't deserve to win and that's down to Pardew's negative showing in the second half - it was almost as if our entire plan for the second half was to hold onto a 1-1 draw and not "go for it". So disappointing. Oh and it's also quite worrying that this isn't the first time that the long ball has formed the basis of a gameplan. I'm really hating the sight of Krul hoofing it forward every single time the ball's played back to him - for me, Krul doesn't do that out of choice, it's quite apparent that it's all Pardew's instructions and I've got to say, I'm becoming increasingly worried about Alan's recent over-reliance on the long ball. Pass and play, Alan, pass and play! We've seen that he is willing to adopt some form of carpet football so the fact that he's not using it often enough is so frustrating. Losing Steven Taylor has really been a massive blow for us - he was one of the players who liked to play the ball out of defence instead of hoofing it forward and by losing that key cog of the pass and play tactic, Pardew's tactics have become more direct which has been to our detriment at times. I still have faith in Pardew btw but it has to be said that these last couple of months have been really frustrating and that's really down to the manager. Pardew should really be brave and go for it in the remaining 10 games. Time to earn your money, Alan! Agree with the assessment except for the last paragraph. Whilst Steven Taylor is important, even without him we do have players who can play passing football. In our team, only Williamson and Simpson are the sort that would resort to long balls. I would argue that all other 8 outfield players are the type who would be more comfortable passing the ball around. So the fact we're not is not down to the players but the manager's instructions. We do indeed have players who like/prefer to pass the ball around but I really think Saylor's absence has really affected the way we play these days. Saylor would, more often than not, play it out of defence and pass it to Tiote/Cabaye instead of hoofing it forward - the simple things really. Williamson, on the other hand, doesn't seem to very confident with the ball and so he usually resorts to the long ball or gives the ball back to Krul. It's usually the simple things which make something work. What needs to/could be done is for one of our midfielders to come deep and receive the ball from Williamson which lessens the need for him to hoof it forward. I do agree with your last sentence though, it is apparent that the long ball is an instruction from the manager, a tactic which Pardew should really eradicate from his thinking ASAP. I simply disagree, although Steven is a big miss but even the midfielders are hoofing, i think that tell the true story. Stated somewhere Pardew works 4 days on the defence and leave the attacking play to the coaches, imo we have no style or standard going forward..pretty much leaving it to the players to improvise. If this is the truth, which it is quite apparrent with our poor constant performances, we need another coach. Sammy Lee anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I'd like to see how we would play with some better quality in defence. I'm not ready to jump on Pardews back yet. Williamson becomes worse by the game, even his headers are directed straight toward the opposition. Simpson whilst steady enough in defence, just isn't good enough in the opposition half. Santon is also very raw. We looked a much better side with Taylor and Colo playing centre half. Hopefully in the summer we will invest in some quality in our back four. Poor from Pardew tonight. We were having a legitimate go at Arsenal in the first half so really, if he had used the same tactics that had served us pretty well in the first half then it would have arguably led to us getting a result imo (nicking a win that is). Those second half tactics were completely atrocious and uncalled for. By adopting the long ball tactic, we basically decided to gift Arsenal with a lot of (too much) possession which, of course, led to a barrage of attacks from them. Such tactics also led to the entire midfield not being fully utilised and that was clearly to our detriment - it meant that Ben Arfa and indeed, our midfield became less influential as the minutes went by. To be brutally honest, we didn't deserve to win and that's down to Pardew's negative showing in the second half - it was almost as if our entire plan for the second half was to hold onto a 1-1 draw and not "go for it". So disappointing. Oh and it's also quite worrying that this isn't the first time that the long ball has formed the basis of a gameplan. I'm really hating the sight of Krul hoofing it forward every single time the ball's played back to him - for me, Krul doesn't do that out of choice, it's quite apparent that it's all Pardew's instructions and I've got to say, I'm becoming increasingly worried about Alan's recent over-reliance on the long ball. Pass and play, Alan, pass and play! We've seen that he is willing to adopt some form of carpet football so the fact that he's not using it often enough is so frustrating. Losing Steven Taylor has really been a massive blow for us - he was one of the players who liked to play the ball out of defence instead of hoofing it forward and by losing that key cog of the pass and play tactic, Pardew's tactics have become more direct which has been to our detriment at times. I still have faith in Pardew btw but it has to be said that these last couple of months have been really frustrating and that's really down to the manager. Pardew should really be brave and go for it in the remaining 10 games. Time to earn your money, Alan! Agree with the assessment except for the last paragraph. Whilst Steven Taylor is important, even without him we do have players who can play passing football. In our team, only Williamson and Simpson are the sort that would resort to long balls. I would argue that all other 8 outfield players are the type who would be more comfortable passing the ball around. So the fact we're not is not down to the players but the manager's instructions. We do indeed have players who like/prefer to pass the ball around but I really think Saylor's absence has really affected the way we play these days. Saylor would, more often than not, play it out of defence and pass it to Tiote/Cabaye instead of hoofing it forward - the simple things really. Williamson, on the other hand, doesn't seem to very confident with the ball and so he usually resorts to the long ball or gives the ball back to Krul. It's usually the simple things which make something work. What needs to/could be done is for one of our midfielders to come deep and receive the ball from Williamson which lessens the need for him to hoof it forward. I do agree with your last sentence though, it is apparent that the long ball is an instruction from the manager, a tactic which Pardew should really eradicate from his thinking ASAP. I simply disagree, although Steven is a big miss but even the midfielders are hoofing, i think that tell the true story. Stated somewhere Pardew works 4 days on the defence and leave the attacking play to the coaches, imo we have no style or standard going forward..pretty much leaving it to the players to improvise. If this is the truth, which it is quite apparrent with our poor constant performances, we need another coach. Sammy Lee anyone? interesting listening to martin keown last night on radio 5 (decent pundit but he does go on too much when the match is in progress) saying that's basically what wenger does. when out of possession get into a team shape and work and express yourself when in possession with very little tactics done what to do when in possession. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Well then they're both horrible, terrible men. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 And my bezzie chris should never have been sacked. Excuse me while I go on a 20 year whinge about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Aye...dont care where we finish..this season tbh, just as long as its not below the Mackems but looking through the fixture list ..its going to be a close call. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Do we really only have 19 from 17 played? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Do we really only have 19 from 17 played? Yeap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Deary me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Geordie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I knew our recent form wasn't good, but 19 points from 17 isn't great! Need to beat Norwich on Sunday, otherwise questions will start being asked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 I started asking them long ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexthegreat Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 At the start of the season I thought a defence of Simpson, Perch, RTaylor, STaylor, Coloccini, Williamson, Ferguson, and no one except later Santon was at least as bad as what got us promoted and possibly the worst I had ever seen us have in the Premiership. I think Pardew would like to play more attacking football but I can see why he wants to focus on protecting the back 4 and agree with the approach. We have seen them completely collapse on several occasions, to have the best defence in the league after 10 games with that lot was a remarkable achievement. We haven't got good enough wide players to compensate for constantly leaking two or three goals a game, and while we could get more from Cabaye in the final third, Tiote will never offer much in this area. We were fortunate (and Pardew deserves credit) that at the start of the season that Ryan Taylor (at leftback, unbelievably) and Jonas were in the the form of their lives. Obertan just isn't good enough, we took a gamble on the cheap option with a poor injury record in Marveaux and it didn't work. The result, inevitably, is the ball ends up in the air a lot. With that midfield and Williamson and Simpson at the back it would be the same regardless of who the manager is. Its a shame because in Ba and Cisse we could potentially have a very good strikeforce, but they need the ball on the deck. The solution everyone wants is to just play BenArfa on the wing and go for it. I'd obviously like to see more from him and couldn't understand what Pardew was doing with him but his defensive play really is feeble and does cause us problems. He represents the complete opposite of the attitude that had us in the top 4. In simple terms the squad isn't good enough for us to do any better. We were a very direct team last year, Pardew wanted us to be more entertaining this year. He didn't get enough backing to make the full transition and now we are stuck half way between the two, with a manager who is correctly inclined to err towards defence. If we do manage to finish 6th or 7th it will be because of Pardew's ability to extract passable and sometimes decent performances from RTaylor, Best, Guthrie, Williamson, Simpson, Shola, and even James Perch on a regular basis. I reckon Souness could get that lot relegated and thats why Pardew's a decent manager regardless of what formation he plays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Do we really only have 19 from 17 played? Yh we are lucky as hell that we had such a good start and Liverpool have only been able to obtain 5 points since Jan 1st Why cant we just play how we did up until christmas? i cant be that hard surely Pards? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Liverpool have only been able to obtain 5 points since Jan 1st woah! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The thing is yesterday's defeat while it was hard to take wasn't that bad compared to a lot of games we've played this season. My problem is with the remaining fixtures. We haven't developed any style or method all season, instead chopping and changing in reaction to our last game. Now we are coming into the final lap I'm just not confident that Pardew has instilled enough of the right disciplines to keep the likes of Everton and Sunderland off our tails. He'll probably think we lost because Ryan Taylor was out ffs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Yep. Spot on. Raylor will be brought back into the team on a golden chair. Now obviously he can't drop Ben Arfa after he's been one of our best players for the last two games (it may not say that much, but at least he's been one of the few players making a difference in attacking play), with Pardew backing him with promising quotes on both occasions. In other words Raylor will return to the good old left back, either pushing Santon into oblivion or right back (never gonna drop Simpson I'm afraid). I can't get over how much Pardew rates Ryan Taylor and Simpson. And Obertan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeabides Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 At the start of the season I thought a defence of Simpson, Perch, RTaylor, STaylor, Coloccini, Williamson, Ferguson, and no one except later Santon was at least as bad as what got us promoted and possibly the worst I had ever seen us have in the Premiership. I think Pardew would like to play more attacking football but I can see why he wants to focus on protecting the back 4 and agree with the approach. We have seen them completely collapse on several occasions, to have the best defence in the league after 10 games with that lot was a remarkable achievement. We haven't got good enough wide players to compensate for constantly leaking two or three goals a game, and while we could get more from Cabaye in the final third, Tiote will never offer much in this area. We were fortunate (and Pardew deserves credit) that at the start of the season that Ryan Taylor (at leftback, unbelievably) and Jonas were in the the form of their lives. Obertan just isn't good enough, we took a gamble on the cheap option with a poor injury record in Marveaux and it didn't work. The result, inevitably, is the ball ends up in the air a lot. With that midfield and Williamson and Simpson at the back it would be the same regardless of who the manager is. Its a shame because in Ba and Cisse we could potentially have a very good strikeforce, but they need the ball on the deck. The solution everyone wants is to just play BenArfa on the wing and go for it. I'd obviously like to see more from him and couldn't understand what Pardew was doing with him but his defensive play really is feeble and does cause us problems. He represents the complete opposite of the attitude that had us in the top 4. In simple terms the squad isn't good enough for us to do any better. We were a very direct team last year, Pardew wanted us to be more entertaining this year. He didn't get enough backing to make the full transition and now we are stuck half way between the two, with a manager who is correctly inclined to err towards defence. If we do manage to finish 6th or 7th it will be because of Pardew's ability to extract passable and sometimes decent performances from RTaylor, Best, Guthrie, Williamson, Simpson, Shola, and even James Perch on a regular basis. I reckon Souness could get that lot relegated and thats why Pardew's a decent manager regardless of what formation he plays. Cracking post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 At the start of the season I thought a defence of Simpson, Perch, RTaylor, STaylor, Coloccini, Williamson, Ferguson, and no one except later Santon was at least as bad as what got us promoted and possibly the worst I had ever seen us have in the Premiership. I think Pardew would like to play more attacking football but I can see why he wants to focus on protecting the back 4 and agree with the approach. We have seen them completely collapse on several occasions, to have the best defence in the league after 10 games with that lot was a remarkable achievement. We haven't got good enough wide players to compensate for constantly leaking two or three goals a game, and while we could get more from Cabaye in the final third, Tiote will never offer much in this area. We were fortunate (and Pardew deserves credit) that at the start of the season that Ryan Taylor (at leftback, unbelievably) and Jonas were in the the form of their lives. Obertan just isn't good enough, we took a gamble on the cheap option with a poor injury record in Marveaux and it didn't work. The result, inevitably, is the ball ends up in the air a lot. With that midfield and Williamson and Simpson at the back it would be the same regardless of who the manager is. Its a shame because in Ba and Cisse we could potentially have a very good strikeforce, but they need the ball on the deck. The solution everyone wants is to just play BenArfa on the wing and go for it. I'd obviously like to see more from him and couldn't understand what Pardew was doing with him but his defensive play really is feeble and does cause us problems. He represents the complete opposite of the attitude that had us in the top 4. In simple terms the squad isn't good enough for us to do any better. We were a very direct team last year, Pardew wanted us to be more entertaining this year. He didn't get enough backing to make the full transition and now we are stuck half way between the two, with a manager who is correctly inclined to err towards defence. If we do manage to finish 6th or 7th it will be because of Pardew's ability to extract passable and sometimes decent performances from RTaylor, Best, Guthrie, Williamson, Simpson, Shola, and even James Perch on a regular basis. I reckon Souness could get that lot relegated and thats why Pardew's a decent manager regardless of what formation he plays. Cracking post. except arguably hughes,o'brien,dabizas,griffin was worse but got us into the champs league ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzle Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 All we need is another world class manager to links to the area then eh? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The difference between that team and this one was that this team deliberately invites pressure by giving the ball away with long balls, that team preferred to keep possession so that the other team couldn't get at the defence so easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 At the start of the season I thought a defence of Simpson, Perch, RTaylor, STaylor, Coloccini, Williamson, Ferguson, and no one except later Santon was at least as bad as what got us promoted and possibly the worst I had ever seen us have in the Premiership. I think Pardew would like to play more attacking football but I can see why he wants to focus on protecting the back 4 and agree with the approach. We have seen them completely collapse on several occasions, to have the best defence in the league after 10 games with that lot was a remarkable achievement. We haven't got good enough wide players to compensate for constantly leaking two or three goals a game, and while we could get more from Cabaye in the final third, Tiote will never offer much in this area. We were fortunate (and Pardew deserves credit) that at the start of the season that Ryan Taylor (at leftback, unbelievably) and Jonas were in the the form of their lives. Obertan just isn't good enough, we took a gamble on the cheap option with a poor injury record in Marveaux and it didn't work. The result, inevitably, is the ball ends up in the air a lot. With that midfield and Williamson and Simpson at the back it would be the same regardless of who the manager is. Its a shame because in Ba and Cisse we could potentially have a very good strikeforce, but they need the ball on the deck. The solution everyone wants is to just play BenArfa on the wing and go for it. I'd obviously like to see more from him and couldn't understand what Pardew was doing with him but his defensive play really is feeble and does cause us problems. He represents the complete opposite of the attitude that had us in the top 4. In simple terms the squad isn't good enough for us to do any better. We were a very direct team last year, Pardew wanted us to be more entertaining this year. He didn't get enough backing to make the full transition and now we are stuck half way between the two, with a manager who is correctly inclined to err towards defence. If we do manage to finish 6th or 7th it will be because of Pardew's ability to extract passable and sometimes decent performances from RTaylor, Best, Guthrie, Williamson, Simpson, Shola, and even James Perch on a regular basis. I reckon Souness could get that lot relegated and thats why Pardew's a decent manager regardless of what formation he plays. Cracking post. Dont rate Pardew, too negative in my view, things can quickly change when things aint going well. Still prefer football that could grant results by scoring and not focusing all on defending. When you go through a goal drought, there is no way you can win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Dabizas, Hughes and Griffin were all fairly decent defenders tbh. Better than Simpson, Williamson and Santon anyhow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 Dabizas, Hughes and Griffin were all fairly decent defenders tbh. Better than Simpson, Williamson and Santon anyhow. none as good as colo or saylor though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 The difference between that team and this one was that this team deliberately invites pressure by giving the ball away with long balls, that team preferred to keep possession so that the other team couldn't get at the defence so easily. exactly, that team had a midfield that both attacked and defended and had clever players who knew how to read a good game, cover for each other when they moved. now we have 2 midfielders incapable of doing other than what they are (tiote and jonas), 1 looking fucked and a bit lost (cabaye) and take your pick on the right Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thedudeabides Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 At the start of the season I thought a defence of Simpson, Perch, RTaylor, STaylor, Coloccini, Williamson, Ferguson, and no one except later Santon was at least as bad as what got us promoted and possibly the worst I had ever seen us have in the Premiership. I think Pardew would like to play more attacking football but I can see why he wants to focus on protecting the back 4 and agree with the approach. We have seen them completely collapse on several occasions, to have the best defence in the league after 10 games with that lot was a remarkable achievement. We haven't got good enough wide players to compensate for constantly leaking two or three goals a game, and while we could get more from Cabaye in the final third, Tiote will never offer much in this area. We were fortunate (and Pardew deserves credit) that at the start of the season that Ryan Taylor (at leftback, unbelievably) and Jonas were in the the form of their lives. Obertan just isn't good enough, we took a gamble on the cheap option with a poor injury record in Marveaux and it didn't work. The result, inevitably, is the ball ends up in the air a lot. With that midfield and Williamson and Simpson at the back it would be the same regardless of who the manager is. Its a shame because in Ba and Cisse we could potentially have a very good strikeforce, but they need the ball on the deck. The solution everyone wants is to just play BenArfa on the wing and go for it. I'd obviously like to see more from him and couldn't understand what Pardew was doing with him but his defensive play really is feeble and does cause us problems. He represents the complete opposite of the attitude that had us in the top 4. In simple terms the squad isn't good enough for us to do any better. We were a very direct team last year, Pardew wanted us to be more entertaining this year. He didn't get enough backing to make the full transition and now we are stuck half way between the two, with a manager who is correctly inclined to err towards defence. If we do manage to finish 6th or 7th it will be because of Pardew's ability to extract passable and sometimes decent performances from RTaylor, Best, Guthrie, Williamson, Simpson, Shola, and even James Perch on a regular basis. I reckon Souness could get that lot relegated and thats why Pardew's a decent manager regardless of what formation he plays. Cracking post. except arguably hughes,o'brien,dabizas,griffin was worse but got us into the champs league ? With the exception of Colo, they were all better defenders than our current crop. And the rest of that team pisses all over this one. Apart from that, it's a good comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 13, 2012 Share Posted March 13, 2012 At the start of the season I thought a defence of Simpson, Perch, RTaylor, STaylor, Coloccini, Williamson, Ferguson, and no one except later Santon was at least as bad as what got us promoted and possibly the worst I had ever seen us have in the Premiership. I think Pardew would like to play more attacking football but I can see why he wants to focus on protecting the back 4 and agree with the approach. We have seen them completely collapse on several occasions, to have the best defence in the league after 10 games with that lot was a remarkable achievement. We haven't got good enough wide players to compensate for constantly leaking two or three goals a game, and while we could get more from Cabaye in the final third, Tiote will never offer much in this area. We were fortunate (and Pardew deserves credit) that at the start of the season that Ryan Taylor (at leftback, unbelievably) and Jonas were in the the form of their lives. Obertan just isn't good enough, we took a gamble on the cheap option with a poor injury record in Marveaux and it didn't work. The result, inevitably, is the ball ends up in the air a lot. With that midfield and Williamson and Simpson at the back it would be the same regardless of who the manager is. Its a shame because in Ba and Cisse we could potentially have a very good strikeforce, but they need the ball on the deck. The solution everyone wants is to just play BenArfa on the wing and go for it. I'd obviously like to see more from him and couldn't understand what Pardew was doing with him but his defensive play really is feeble and does cause us problems. He represents the complete opposite of the attitude that had us in the top 4. In simple terms the squad isn't good enough for us to do any better. We were a very direct team last year, Pardew wanted us to be more entertaining this year. He didn't get enough backing to make the full transition and now we are stuck half way between the two, with a manager who is correctly inclined to err towards defence. If we do manage to finish 6th or 7th it will be because of Pardew's ability to extract passable and sometimes decent performances from RTaylor, Best, Guthrie, Williamson, Simpson, Shola, and even James Perch on a regular basis. I reckon Souness could get that lot relegated and thats why Pardew's a decent manager regardless of what formation he plays. Cracking post. except arguably hughes,o'brien,dabizas,griffin was worse but got us into the champs league ? With the exception of Colo, they were all better defenders than our current crop. And the rest of that team pisses all over this one. Apart from that, it's a good comparison. i'd take saylor over dabizas,o'brien and titus. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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