Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Flip]

Has Messi got 14 goals already so far this season?  f***ing ridiculous 

 

I still can't believe the bullshit that gets spouted about Messi:

 

"he needs to move clubs to prove himself"

"he needs to win a World Cup to be considered as one of the best, if not the best"

"he needs to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke" 

 

FFS if people just used their eyes 

 

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point.

 

But do you not also agree that South American fans now have higher expectations for players leaving the continent and thus it will be harder for messi to reach that level of appreciation now. The fact is South American's are the best in the world at football and over the years rightly so they have raised there expectations. Look at Hulk and Vanger Love for good examples of raised expectations. 20 years ago they would have been considered amazing now with the ammount of talent being poached by Europe, Asia and the Middle East South American fans have come to expect more of the players that leave.

 

Get the fuck out of here, Vagner Love, I can't seriously believe you just used him as an example. But as you say expectations have risen yes, that's because we export more than thousands of players every year around the world. I mean there are more players of Brazilian origin than any other nationality in the Champions League. Hulk is a good player, but 4 years ago he was playing in the 2nd division of the Japanese football and while he certainly deserves to be in the national team people haven't gotten their eyes on him just yet in Brazil.

[themanupstairs]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did show it by winning 3 world cups didn't he? Personally I've never agreed with comparisons between players when one of them is still in the early years of his career. Take for example the Shearer vs Rooney debate. I don't think we can debate that properly until Rooney has retired and we can take look at both of their stats. By the time Messi has retired, we'll have a clearer idea of where he ranks among the world's greatest ever. Again I'll say, by the time he's hung up his boots, IMO he will be considered the greatest that ever lived. If his career were to end tomorrow though, he wouldn't be.

 

When did this change from a debate discussing club career to international career must have missed that memo. Read above for my take on why Messi hasn't "delivered" at an international level. Also add the fact that Diego and Pele were both given free roles in their respective international teams where as Messi keeps getting stuck out on the wing.

 

But my question to you is why does Messi apparently need to leave the Barcelona set up to prove himself when Pele never left Santos (till the end of his career). Both teams were/are the best in the world at the respective times and both had a system set up from the youth teams which both players flourish in.

 

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post? I AM talking about him proving it on the international stage though. Messi hasn't been stuck out on the wing with Argentina at all, at least not in the competitive tournaments Argentina have played recently. He's been very much involved in a central attacking position, be it upfront or in a withdrawn role behind 2 forwards.

 

I also did mention that Messi struggling on the international stage might also have something to do with the insane number of games he has to play before turning out for Argentina in the summer. You must have missed that eh? Football players are human afterall, be it Messi or Jonathan Walters, if you've played 60 odd games at the high intensity level of modern European football, you will get to a point of mental and physical exhaustion and hence not be at your best when crunch time comes.

[Flip]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did it with the national team, I for one aint arguing he has to do it with f***ing Stoke because no one wants or would be able to making that turd team into a good one. However, like ive said at some point he has to do it with the national team, he's been non-existant with the Argentinian side and that's not consistency.

 

Which brings me back to my original argument that in their respective national teams Pele and Maradona had it a lot easier than Messi does. Argentina have turned the coaching position in to a complete circus and there has been no stability recently especially with giving the role to Maradona who leaves a lot to be desired regarding tactical decisions.

 

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did show it by winning 3 world cups didn't he? Personally I've never agreed with comparisons between players when one of them is still in the early years of his career. Take for example the Shearer vs Rooney debate. I don't think we can debate that properly until Rooney has retired and we can take look at both of their stats. By the time Messi has retired, we'll have a clearer idea of where he ranks among the world's greatest ever. Again I'll say, by the time he's hung up his boots, IMO he will be considered the greatest that ever lived. If his career were to end tomorrow though, he wouldn't be.

 

When did this change from a debate discussing club career to international career must have missed that memo. Read above for my take on why Messi hasn't "delivered" at an international level. Also add the fact that Diego and Pele were both given free roles in their respective international teams where as Messi keeps getting stuck out on the wing.

 

But my question to you is why does Messi apparently need to leave the Barcelona set up to prove himself when Pele never left Santos (till the end of his career). Both teams were/are the best in the world at the respective times and both had a system set up from the youth teams which both players flourish in.

 

Coaching bla bla bla. 1958, Feola was the Brazilian coach, he used to sleep on the bench.  Also Messi has been palying in a free role for the last couple of years with Argentina.

[Flip]

Has Messi got 14 goals already so far this season?  f***ing ridiculous 

 

I still can't believe the bullshit that gets spouted about Messi:

 

"he needs to move clubs to prove himself"

"he needs to win a World Cup to be considered as one of the best, if not the best"

"he needs to do it on a cold Tuesday night at Stoke" 

 

FFS if people just used their eyes 

 

I use my eyes, and I can't see how Messi will ever be considered better than Maradona let alone Pele if he can't even be that in his own country. In footballistic terms, Pele was much more impressive as a player at this age, you can argue all along but he has to do it on the international scene (with national team) at some point.

 

Where have I said he is or will be better than the two players you've mentioned?

 

For the record, I'm not fond of comparing players over different generations, too many variables, not a fair test or whatever it was they used to say in GCSE Science!

 

I just find the lines about him having to leave Barca or do it all on his own for Argentina (who had a insane coke head as manager last World Cup) to somehow prove himself are lazy and misinformed at best.  He delivers it in the Champions League every single season for Barca and to the person that said Barca would probably be as good without Messi.  I would personally say, no, no they wouldn't.

 

He's streets ahead of any player at the moment IMO and has been for the past 2 or 3 years.

 

Agreed with the bold bit, but you cannot say that anyone expects Messi to do it on his own. But with the players he have around him in the national team he should be able to do it just if he was able to adapt to the different roles.

[Guest sydneycove]

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post

 

Ummmmm vvvvv

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca' date=' especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football. [/quote']

 

My question which I am still waiting to be answered by you is this: Why should Messi on a club level have to leave Barca when Pele never left Santos when they are the EXACT same down to being the best clubs in the world at the time and great systems that had been drilled into the players from the youth set up.

 

Again regarding the international argument I believe:

 

1. Expectations have risen in South America due to the sheer quality of players coming out of the region.

2. Messi keeps getting shafted out on the wing for Argentina unlike Coke Head and Pele who were given free roles.

3. Maradona and Pele had better teams around them at the time due to a number of factors (individual skill, coach stability)

4. Messi suffers internationally from Argentina's instability at the top end of the game (appointing Diego WTF were they thinking)

 

 

[Flip]

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post

 

Ummmmm vvvvv

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca' date=' especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football. [/quote']

 

My question which I am still waiting to be answered by you is this: Why should Messi on a club level have to leave Barca when Pele never left Santos when they are the EXACT same down to being the best clubs in the world at the time and great systems that had been drilled into the players from the youth set up.

 

Again regarding the international argument I believe:

 

1. Expectations have risen in South America due to the sheer quality of players coming out of the region.

2. Messi keeps getting shafted out on the wing for Argentina unlike Coke Head and Pele who were given free roles.

3. Maradona and Pele had better teams around them at the time due to a number of factors (individual skill, coach stability)

4. Messi suffers internationally from Argentina's instability at the top end of the game (appointing Diego WTF were they thinking)

 

 

 

Points 2, 3 and 4 are utter bullshit though tbh. He plays as a false-nr 9, which he plays for Barcelona. He wasn't very good during Copa America, he was also given a free role by Maradona during the WC.

 

Pele in 1970 had a better team around him, Argentina in 86' didn't however than Messi had in 2010. Milito, Tevez, Aguero, Higuain were all topscorers in the best leagues in the world.  Coach stability didn't exist back then, like I mentioned Peles manager in 1958 was a lazy obese manager who slept on the bench due to medication.

 

Messi should be able to do it anyways, referring to the last point. If he was THAT good he'd be able to dominate the likes of Peru, Bolivia, Colombia and so on, which he doesn't.

[johnnypd]

And Pele didn't need to show any of that why?

 

Santos were the best team in the world by a mile when Pele was with them. I don't see why Messi needs to do something Pele didn't to be discussed in the same group as Pele and Maradonna.

 

Pele did show it by winning 3 world cups didn't he? Personally I've never agreed with comparisons between players when one of them is still in the early years of his career. Take for example the Shearer vs Rooney debate. I don't think we can debate that properly until Rooney has retired and we can take look at both of their stats. By the time Messi has retired, we'll have a clearer idea of where he ranks among the world's greatest ever. Again I'll say, by the time he's hung up his boots, IMO he will be considered the greatest that ever lived. If his career were to end tomorrow though, he wouldn't be.

 

When did this change from a debate discussing club career to international career must have missed that memo. Read above for my take on why Messi hasn't "delivered" at an international level. Also add the fact that Diego and Pele were both given free roles in their respective international teams where as Messi keeps getting stuck out on the wing.

 

But my question to you is why does Messi apparently need to leave the Barcelona set up to prove himself when Pele never left Santos (till the end of his career). Both teams were/are the best in the world at the respective times and both had a system set up from the youth teams which both players flourish in.

 

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post? I AM talking about him proving it on the international stage though. Messi hasn't been stuck out on the wing with Argentina at all, at least not in the competitive tournaments Argentina have played recently. He's been very much involved in a central attacking position, be it upfront or in a withdrawn role behind 2 forwards.

 

Indeed, the copa was supposed to be all about recreating the barca attack so that messi could have his favoured false 9 role and that was an almost catastrophic failure in the first two games. if Messi is the best person to ever play football, why does he need all these excuses to be made for him when it comes to not being as successful for Argentina? even if he'd played out wide earlier for Argentina, he did so when Barca had Zlatan, and was still a huge success.

 

to be considered the greatest player ever, he has to perform outside his barca comfort zone. simple as that. international football is not the gold standard for footballing quality anymore, but this fact even makes the difference more stark. he's not playing with players who are as good as he's used to, or in a side as cohesive, so its an opportunity for him as an individual to positively influence his team and lift them to new levels.

[Fenham Mag]

Messi needs a stint at Stoke to prove his greatness.

[Flip]

Messi needs a stint at Stoke to prove his greatness.

 

 

But Tony Pulis has to be the manager, its all about stability.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Debates like this will always rage on, but I think for a lot of people hindsight will be the determining factor, probably because they can't believe what they're seeing, or refuse to because they're holding onto their belief about another all-time great.

 

At this stage I wouldn't say he's definitely the best of all time, but he's comfortably the best I've seen. In an era where I've watched the brilliance and in some cases the full career of brilliance from Zidane, Ronaldo, C.Ronaldo, Cantona, Henry, Ronaldinho, Baggio, Hagi, Romario, Xavi, Maldini and so on, first hand, it's bordering on fiction that I could watch one player for, what? Four seasons? And for them to be, in my eyes, better than the lot of them.

 

For us to be even debating him as the best player of all-time at the age of 24 is ridiculous, but it shows just how f***ing ridiculous he is. It wouldn't surprise me if by the end of his career, a lot of people looked back and thought "actually, aye, he did everything I could have asked for him to prove, he is the best player of all time," but in the meantime I just want to enjoy watching someone for hopefully the next 10 years, who is already the best player I've ever seen, and hopefully tell my kids and grand kids about the time I went to Barcalona and watched him rip apart Almeria in the 20 minutes he had on the pitch, and how I watched him on Telly, ripping apart any team that you care to mention.

[Flip]

I agree with a lot but what had Ronaldo been without his injuries. At Messis age Ronaldo was just as good, he could win matches in the same way as Messi did with three different clubs with inferior squads to what Barcelona has today.

 

I'm not saying Messi isn't the best, but a big part is down to him playing with Iniesta, Xavi, Ronaldinho in the beginning, now Cesc, Villa he's never had to do it on his own. Cesc has 4 goals and 4 assist in 5 La Liga games this season and he's a midfielder. That says alot about the current state of the Barcelona team. Ronaldo had inferior squads except at Real Madrid possibly but that was just individual brilliant players and that after he had been two whole years out of the game.

 

Messi is the more achieved player, but I cannot say I'm 100% sure I think Messi was a better player than Ronaldo was at this age.

[Guest sydneycove]

To be fighting for Messi again though Ronaldo at PSV is hardly a good measure for his talent (he was much much much better than PSV). Afonso Alves also ripped the Dutch league a new one.

[STM]

I think Messi is probably the best ever but i will never be able to prove it.

[Guest firetotheworks]

To be fighting for Messi again though Ronaldo at PSV is hardly a good measure for his talent (he was much much much better than PSV). Afonso Alves also ripped the Dutch league a new one.

 

Playing Devil's Advocate, but so did Cruyff.

 

Henry, Cantona, and C.Ronaldo ripped our league apart, but then so did James Beattie and Michael Ricketts. The opposition and the league shouldn't be more of a barometer than your instincts on a player, imo.

[Novocastrian]

Messi is the greatest player to grace the game since football was 'invented' after the World Cup in 1990.

 

I never saw Pele but for me Maradona is still the greatest. Messi is fabulously talented but he has been playing organised football at Barcelona since he was knee high to a grasshopper. Maradona was more instinctive and inventive, real poetry in motion.

 

Just my own thoughts.

[themanupstairs]

Messi is the greatest player to grace the game since football was 'invented' after the World Cup in 1990.

 

I never saw Pele but for me Maradona is still the greatest. Messi is fabulously talented but he has been playing organised football at Barcelona since he was knee high to a grasshopper. Maradona was more instinctive and inventive, real poetry in motion.

 

Just my own thoughts.

 

Agreed

[Guest sydneycove]

No idea where this staying at 1 club proves nothing idea came from. Same people probably complain about players being mercenaries as well.

[themanupstairs]

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post

 

Ummmmm vvvvv

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca' date=' especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football. [/quote']

 

My question which I am still waiting to be answered by you is this: Why should Messi on a club level have to leave Barca when Pele never left Santos when they are the EXACT same down to being the best clubs in the world at the time and great systems that had been drilled into the players from the youth set up.

 

Again regarding the international argument I believe:

 

1. Expectations have risen in South America due to the sheer quality of players coming out of the region.

2. Messi keeps getting shafted out on the wing for Argentina unlike Coke Head and Pele who were given free roles.

3. Maradona and Pele had better teams around them at the time due to a number of factors (individual skill, coach stability)

4. Messi suffers internationally from Argentina's instability at the top end of the game (appointing Diego WTF were they thinking)

 

You sound like NE5 dude! Chill! I have answered your question when I clarified that I was on about Messi bringing it to the international stage, and not necessarily about leaving Barca to pursue club football elsewhere. Johnnypd made the same points I've been trying to make, in that Messi needs to show that he can have enough influence on games, and win tournaments by himself, the way Maradona most notably had done in 86. He HASN'T been shafted out wide in the national side man, watch the Copa matches and you'll see.

[Novocastrian]

No idea where this staying at 1 club proves nothing idea came from. Same people probably complain about players being mercenaries as well.

 

Who said that?

[Guest sydneycove]

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post

 

Ummmmm vvvvv

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca' date=' especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football. [/quote']

 

My question which I am still waiting to be answered by you is this: Why should Messi on a club level have to leave Barca when Pele never left Santos when they are the EXACT same down to being the best clubs in the world at the time and great systems that had been drilled into the players from the youth set up.

 

Again regarding the international argument I believe:

 

1. Expectations have risen in South America due to the sheer quality of players coming out of the region.

2. Messi keeps getting shafted out on the wing for Argentina unlike Coke Head and Pele who were given free roles.

3. Maradona and Pele had better teams around them at the time due to a number of factors (individual skill, coach stability)

4. Messi suffers internationally from Argentina's instability at the top end of the game (appointing Diego WTF were they thinking)

 

You sound like NE5 dude! Chill! I have answered your question when I clarified that I was on about Messi bringing it to the international stage, and not necessarily about leaving Barca to pursue club football elsewhere. Johnnypd made the same points I've been trying to make, in that Messi needs to show that he can have enough influence on games, and win tournaments by himself, the way Maradona most notably had done in 86. He HASN'T been shafted out wide in the national side man, watch the Copa matches and you'll see.

 

So even under Crazy Diego getting 6 assists at the World Cup isn't showing how he can boss the team. If Argentina had a half competent manager at the helm they would have gone to the WC finals.

 

He had a poor performance at the Copa America as did the whole Argentina team and yet in 2011 he still has managed an assist a game playing for Argentina. Dont forget that if Argentina had of won the penalty shoot out they probably would have won the tournament and again they were under the guidense of another absolute nut job in Batista. I think under Sabella you will finally see Messi come into his own for the Argentina national team. If he fails under Sabella I will be willing to agree he has not replecated his Barca form internationally but this is the first coach he has had since he has become an established star who isn't completely bat shit crazy.

[themanupstairs]

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post

 

Ummmmm vvvvv

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca' date=' especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football. [/quote']

 

My question which I am still waiting to be answered by you is this: Why should Messi on a club level have to leave Barca when Pele never left Santos when they are the EXACT same down to being the best clubs in the world at the time and great systems that had been drilled into the players from the youth set up.

 

Again regarding the international argument I believe:

 

1. Expectations have risen in South America due to the sheer quality of players coming out of the region.

2. Messi keeps getting shafted out on the wing for Argentina unlike Coke Head and Pele who were given free roles.

3. Maradona and Pele had better teams around them at the time due to a number of factors (individual skill, coach stability)

4. Messi suffers internationally from Argentina's instability at the top end of the game (appointing Diego WTF were they thinking)

 

You sound like NE5 dude! Chill! I have answered your question when I clarified that I was on about Messi bringing it to the international stage, and not necessarily about leaving Barca to pursue club football elsewhere. Johnnypd made the same points I've been trying to make, in that Messi needs to show that he can have enough influence on games, and win tournaments by himself, the way Maradona most notably had done in 86. He HASN'T been shafted out wide in the national side man, watch the Copa matches and you'll see.

 

So even under Crazy Diego getting 6 assists at the World Cup isn't showing how he can boss the team. If Argentina had a half competent manager at the helm they would have gone to the WC finals.

 

He had a poor performance at the Copa America as did the whole Argentina team and yet in 2011 he still has managed an assist a game playing for Argentina. Dont forget that if Argentina had of won the penalty shoot out they probably would have won the tournament and again they were under the guidense of another absolute nut job in Batista. I think under Sabella you will finally see Messi come into his own for the Argentina national team. If he fails under Sabella I will be willing to agree he has not replecated his Barca form internationally but this is the first coach he has had since he has become an established star who isn't completely bat s*** crazy.

 

I certainly do hope so! I somehow think you think I have something against Messi, when in reality I love the little guy, and I usually support Argentina at major tournaments, and have done so since '82. I'm just being a difficult bastard, as I reckon he needs to be judged at the end of his career and not when he hasn't even yet peaked.

[Flip]

Where did I say he has to leave Barca in my post

 

Ummmmm vvvvv

 

I'm not saying Messi should sign for Stoke and win the league with them before he's considered the world's greatest ever. All I'm saying is that at Barca' date=' especially since he's been there since youth teams, he's playing in a well drilled, well rehearsed system that he's been used to for years. Put it this way, ask yourself this question, would Barcelona have been the great footballing force they are now without Messi? I would think so personally. It's their system and footballing philosophy that makes them the strongest club side in world football. [/quote']

 

My question which I am still waiting to be answered by you is this: Why should Messi on a club level have to leave Barca when Pele never left Santos when they are the EXACT same down to being the best clubs in the world at the time and great systems that had been drilled into the players from the youth set up.

 

Again regarding the international argument I believe:

 

1. Expectations have risen in South America due to the sheer quality of players coming out of the region.

2. Messi keeps getting shafted out on the wing for Argentina unlike Coke Head and Pele who were given free roles.

3. Maradona and Pele had better teams around them at the time due to a number of factors (individual skill, coach stability)

4. Messi suffers internationally from Argentina's instability at the top end of the game (appointing Diego WTF were they thinking)

 

You sound like NE5 dude! Chill! I have answered your question when I clarified that I was on about Messi bringing it to the international stage, and not necessarily about leaving Barca to pursue club football elsewhere. Johnnypd made the same points I've been trying to make, in that Messi needs to show that he can have enough influence on games, and win tournaments by himself, the way Maradona most notably had done in 86. He HASN'T been shafted out wide in the national side man, watch the Copa matches and you'll see.

 

So even under Crazy Diego getting 6 assists at the World Cup isn't showing how he can boss the team. If Argentina had a half competent manager at the helm they would have gone to the WC finals.

 

He had a poor performance at the Copa America as did the whole Argentina team and yet in 2011 he still has managed an assist a game playing for Argentina. Dont forget that if Argentina had of won the penalty shoot out they probably would have won the tournament and again they were under the guidense of another absolute nut job in Batista. I think under Sabella you will finally see Messi come into his own for the Argentina national team. If he fails under Sabella I will be willing to agree he has not replecated his Barca form internationally but this is the first coach he has had since he has become an established star who isn't completely bat s*** crazy.

 

Since when? Messi had one assist during the whole World Cup and that was to Tevez when he scored against Mexico and he was offside so shouldn't have counted. Not saying he wasn't good but don't invent stats!

[JH]

He's definitely the best player in the world, but I dunno. I'm still not convinced he's the best ever.

[mrmojorisin75]

As i mentioned... Messi is a great player of our time...but the fact is he is in the shadows Fat Ronaldo, Zidane , Pele and some you mention till he proves it. His abilities are not to be doubted but his Mental strength and leadership skills are still in question.

Facts are Facts ...you can idolize a player for all you want...but results are the only measure of success... Thats probably why Pele is ahead by miles....

 

that there should have seen the end of anyone even discussing this shit with you, fucking idiotic

[Guest firetotheworks]

Zidane's mental strength wasn't exactly the best. Make no mistake, he was completely big time and was meant for that stage, but everyone knows his temperament wasn't the best.