Guest firetotheworks Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I don't know how you can say something like that. There's absolutely no tangible reason that they wouldn't be as good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie1892 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Not sure I've posted this before, but about a decade ago I used to work with a guy in his late 70's who in the 50's/60's/70's pretty much used to live for football and had seen most of the greats in that era live in the flesh. Always rated his opinion on football matters as even in old age he seemed pretty sound with his opinion on the current generation of footballers. Anyway, he pointed something out that I think is worth considering in these types of discussions - a point that I've rarely seen mentioned anywhere else - which was that to his eye the biggest change in the sport by far isn't to do with vastly increased fitness levels, ball technology, or tactics (which to him were irrelevant since the likes of Pele et al would be able to adjust or benefit themselves), but rather the biggest change is with goalkeepers. His view was that keepers in the modern game have improved to such an extent that keepers today are completely unrecognizable to the keepers you had during bygone era's. Today's keepers are taken for granted, but on a whole they're significantly better shot stoppers, far better distributors, they're alot more rounded and excel at other aspects of goalkeeping (coming off the line quickly, making themselves big, punching, catching, long throws, etc), and in many cases they'are alot bigger physically (man mountains vs normal sized guys) and better coached (a byproduct of the continuous learning from keepers who've added or popularized a new technique, e.g. Schmeical and his instant counter-attacking overarm long-throw) than keepers half a century ago. On top of this, the depth of quality goalkeeping is infinitely better than what it was - he said Banks was a good keeper but beyond a couple of other good keepers in that era the rest were amateur standard in today's game. Keepers like Buffon, Schmeichel, Khan, that level of goalkeeping simply didn't exist at that time, and nowadays even mediocre or p*ss poor nations have decent keepers who are light years ahead of what equivalent teams in the 50's - 80's had. It's an interesting point to consider imo. Maybe the lighter balls we have today would counter to this to a degree, but you still have to wonder how many of Pele's less famous goals would have been tipped round the post today. When looking at the low quality videos of matches in the Pele era, aside from fitness, the one player who does tend to stick out like a sore thumb is usually the keeper, and not just because of the weird "kit" (often gloveless?) they used to have. They just look odd positionally, the way they dive, the way the kick the ball, even their height (they do seem quite small). I guess the point here would be that this should count massively in Messi's favor in the Messi vs Pele debates. I have no idea how good Gordon Banks was, but based on what I've been told (admittedly by one person, albeit someone who's opinion I value), I would bet Pele never had to face a keeper of Manuel Neuer's pedigree, let alone an entire competition full of keepers close to that standard. great post, i've noticed when you watch the old newsreel footage that keepers very rarely dive. I love my football but can take or leave watching other matches and as a consequence have never really seen Neuer play until this world cup. I must say he is one of, if not the best goalkeeper I have ever seen and that's with me growing up with Schmeichel haunting my NUFC dreams. His shot stopping, distribution, control of his penalty area and anticipation so he can play the sweeper role allowing the germans to press higher up the pitch is second to none and must be a massive confidence booster to the whole team not just the defence. On the original messi question, I think he is the best in the world, the first football I ever watched was the 1990 world cup so I've seen Maradona but I guess 86 was his best tournament the cheating twat. George Best from what I have seen on video footage was a genius but again like the post ive quoted did he really come up against word class defenders who weren't just the typical big hard man at the back that he could do for skill and pace? id love to see him up against a cannavaro or vidic/terry who can read the game as well as kick people into next week Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I don't know how you can say something like that. There's absolutely no tangible reason that they wouldn't be as good. Nor is there that they would be. What im saying is that to me the best goalies generally come from a bygone age. The likes of Banks, Yashin, Shilton, Arconada and even Sepp Maier would walk into any XI today. Edit: Add Zoff, Dasaeyev and Preudhomme to them also. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 If you've seen both then fair enough. I don't see any reason that they're better other than having seen both first hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I haven't seen Yashin but I have the rest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 In fact I probably would select Neuer ahead of Maier if both were around today. Maier was to all intents and purpose, a better version of Kahn. But not as good as Neuer is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stottie Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 to tmonkey's post about the improvement in keepers. When I've seen old film of Bobby Charlton specials, my main impression has always been that a modern keeper would have stopped a lot of them. On a similar tip, if you watch old cricket matches from the 50s definitely and possibly as late as the 70s, a decent hit maybe only six feet wide of any fielder was four runs. The fielder will kind of bend down a bit, but it's all kind of "jolly good stroke". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cookie1892 Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I don't know how you can say something like that. There's absolutely no tangible reason that they wouldn't be as good. Nor is there that they would be. What im saying is that to me the best goalies generally come from a bygone age. The likes of Banks, Yashin, Shilton, Arconada and even Sepp Maier would walk into any XI today. Edit: Add Zoff, Dasaeyev and Preudhomme to them also. I would have to disagree with that, although the argument could be that the game and the overall role of a keeper has changed dramatically, as has the outfield game. Speed, ball technology, fitness and the mental side all play a part in this whether people like it or not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 As College Dropout said its swings and roundabouts, there's things today which make it easier for Messi than it did in Pele's and Maradona's time but at same time certain things that make it more difficult to shine. That's why its pretty much impossible to compare eras as much as we all like to, there will never be an undisputed no 1 because of this. But Messi is arguably in the bracket of those players. Without making the debate seem redundant, that's about as far as you can realistically take it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 As College Dropout said its swings and roundabouts, there's things today which make it easier for Messi than it did in Pele's and Maradona's time but at same time certain things that make it more difficult to shine. That's why its pretty much impossible to compare eras as much as we all like to, there will never be an undisputed no 1 because of this. But Messi is arguably in the bracket of those players. Without making the debate seem redundant, that's about as far as you can realistically take it. These debates will always be about though, because there cannot be a defining answer...it's great fun doing it though..I've had many conversations down the pub over the years comparing sportspeople from different eras. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 Aye Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think the reason that it happens is because in other sports there have been people that have been pretty much undisputed as being the best. Jordan, Rossi, possibly Woods etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think that's because football has been a professional sport with worldwide interest longer than those other sports. Thus there's more candidates which can be considered for the discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 11, 2014 Share Posted July 11, 2014 I think the reason that it happens is because in other sports there have been people that have been pretty much undisputed as being the best. Jordan, Rossi, possibly Woods etc Individual sports is one thing, however Jordan isn't the undisputed best, there are arguments for players like Lebron to be considered the best as well. Not that I think anyone comes close to Jordan, but some people argue that. I just think in individual sports it's easier to proclaim someone the best while in a team sport it's a bit more complex. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 For me its Pele Maradona and then Messi. However he can change all that tomorrow by starring and helping his team to win the WC. Do that and the crown is his as the greatest of them all. He needs to put in a huge performance of the kind Pele put in as a 17 year-old, or the kind Maradona did when he defeated England. It has to be of that level or of that nature. We all know he is undoubtedly one of the best ever, but this is his moment now, his once chance to fucking nail it and big game/name players usually perform or do the business. He hasn't played badly at all this tournament, but he is meant to be the best player ever or one of the best and his performances thus far haven't indicated that. A huge huge game for him tomorrow like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 to tmonkey's post about the improvement in keepers. When I've seen old film of Bobby Charlton specials, my main impression has always been that a modern keeper would have stopped a lot of them. On a similar tip, if you watch old cricket matches from the 50s definitely and possibly as late as the 70s, a decent hit maybe only six feet wide of any fielder was four runs. The fielder will kind of bend down a bit, but it's all kind of "jolly good stroke". You sure you weren't watching an India game from last week? #indianfanhere Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone or more complete than the other, but I've seen a few people say there is no doubt Pele is the most complete footballer of all time. What makes him more complete than Cristiano Ronaldo? Just curious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Read what I posted here. http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,75836.msg5104113.html#msg5104113 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone or more complete than the other, but I've seen a few people say there is no doubt Pele is the most complete footballer of all time. What makes him more complete than Cristiano Ronaldo? Just curious. :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: :anguish: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You're welcome to point out the weaknesses in Ronaldos game to me. I think Pele is better from what I've seen but Ronaldo is every bit as complete IMO. Both feet, heading, skill, speed, strength, free kicks, penalties. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You're welcome to point out the weaknesses in Ronaldos game to me. I think Pele is better from what I've seen but Ronaldo is every bit as complete IMO. Both feet, heading, skill, speed, strength, free kicks, penalties. You're just forgetting brain, vision, creativeness which made Pele the best. Pele could be the #9 as well as the #10 faultlessly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Again, Ronaldo has all of that. Pele was better, but that isn't the point here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Close contol, agility, passing, vision etc etc..... all things Messi for example is vastly superior at. Ronaldo isn't that great at any of them, that's by no means a bad thing btw i think the complete stuff for any player is utter nonsense. Every single player has weaknesses in their game, that includes Messi, Maradona and Pele. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 Again, Ronaldo has all of that. Pele was better, but that isn't the point here. Ronaldo could never play the #10 role and no Ronaldo doesn't have all of that. Ronaldo is an effective machine, one of the best goal scorers I'll ever see, but he's not near the top guys when it comes to technique, intelligent and vision on the pitch. He's got dribbling skills, goal scoring ability and is physically superior to most players nowadays. But he's no Cruyff, Messi, Maradona, or Pele. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 12, 2014 Share Posted July 12, 2014 You're welcome to point out the weaknesses in Ronaldos game to me. I think Pele is better from what I've seen but Ronaldo is every bit as complete IMO. Both feet, heading, skill, speed, strength, free kicks, penalties. Thought it was in comparison to Messi. I didn't see Pele so can't comment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now