Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nesta. Aye me as well never got to see Baresi live and Maldini was not as good a defender as Nesta IMO he was a better footballer but i think Nesta was a better defender. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just out of interest, would anyone put any current defenders in an all-time great list? It's difficult because generally players that are deemed good enough to be amongst the best ever would have the attributes to play in a different position. TBF I think the same is true of amazing, pure finishers. The best I've seen is Maldini, easily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nesta. Aye me as well never got to see Baresi live and Maldini was not as good a defender as Nesta IMO he was a better footballer but i think Nesta was a better defender. Aye, Nesta's ability to somehow always steal the ball is supernatural. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 In general the level of football today is higher than it was forty years ago for a variety of reasons. Since players have improved mainly due to science and medicine, it leads us to believe that it will become harder and harder for players to continue improving, because science and medicine can only help so much. So since we are almost plateauing in terms of scientific achievement, differences between players are now only in terms of skill and technique, relative to before. Given this conclusion, for someone like Messi to be so dominant and so otherworldly today, has to mean that he is so many standard deviations better than the average player. Pele didn't need to be so many standard deviations better because there weren't that many players meaning there weren't that many great players (in counting terms). If you catch my drift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'd be interested to know what people think about the lack of defenders that crop up in best player ever arguments. It always seems to be a criticism of awards like the Ballon D'or too, but I'm not sure I agree with it. All defenders are basically just the guys when growing up that ultimately didn't have the skill, vision or artistry to play other positions. They're the stoppers and destroyers of the more naturally talented players at the end of the day. Of course there are some that have turned it into an art and recieve the adulation that they deserve, but these arguments are always weighted in favour of attackers and midfielders for a reason IMO. Fans mainly watch football largely for goals, skill and attacking play at the end of the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. It is completely contradictory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nest and Zanetti certainly, but I think he means defenders now who are in their prime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is there anyone currently/recently in their prime that would make the list in people's opinions? I agree with all the suggestions but I was more thinking about the current crop plying their trade. The likes of Silva, Hummels etc. As Tooj said... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest palnese Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'd be interested to know what people think about the lack of defenders that crop up in best player ever arguments. It always seems to be a criticism of awards like the Ballon D'or too, but I'm not sure I agree with it. All defenders are basically just the guys when growing up that ultimately didn't have the skill, vision or artistry to play other positions. They're the stoppers and destroyers of the more naturally talented players at the end of the day. Of course there are some that have turned it into an art and recieve the adulation that they deserve, but these arguments are always weighted in favour of attackers and midfielders for a reason IMO. Fans mainly watch football largely for goals, skill and attacking play at the end of the day. That Coloccini fella is quite alright at football imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. It is completely contradictory. In general the level of football today is higher than it was forty years ago for a variety of reasons. Since players have improved mainly due to science and medicine, it leads us to believe that it will become harder and harder for players to continue improving, because science and medicine can only help so much. So since we are almost plateauing in terms of scientific achievement, differences between players are now only in terms of skill and technique, relative to before. Given this conclusion, for someone like Messi to be so dominant and so otherworldly today, has to mean that he is so many standard deviations better than the average player. Pele didn't need to be so many standard deviations better because there weren't that many players meaning there weren't that many great players (in counting terms). If you catch my drift. I catch your drift, but Pele did stuff no one had ever done before in terms of skill. Messi has invented shit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 There's a general feeling that defending is more based on team work and organisation more than individual skill and creativity among other things which attackers are known for. Not say it doesn't take skill because it clearly does but i think it's more about the team than anyone individual in regards to defending. Basically an WC attacker can carry a bad attack but can a WC defender carry a bad defence? I think that's the main reason you see more individual awards handing out to midfielders and attackers than defenders.... I don't necessarily agree with it but i think that's the reason why. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is there anyone currently/recently in their prime that would make the list in people's opinions? I agree with all the suggestions but I was more thinking about the current crop plying their trade. The likes of Silva, Hummels etc. As Tooj said... Vidic, Silva, Ferdinand must in a way be up there. But still not with the absolute best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. It is completely contradictory. To an idiot aye... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. It is completely contradictory. To an idiot aye... Easy man It kinda is, I do get your points but you got to understand though that what you are saying is that teams were more offensive back then hence it was easier to score goals. I know what you mean, but it does contradict what you were arguing against. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Pele is ad always will be the biggest football legend, he basically pioneered greatness on a global level for a footballer, that's how good he was and if not for him would we even have a Messi?! All of your skills and tricksters that kids get coached or learn about/try to copy were mainly Pele derived. He was doing with a football back then that everyone today will never be able to do unless your name is Messi basically. Incredible really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'd be interested to know what people think about the lack of defenders that crop up in best player ever arguments. It always seems to be a criticism of awards like the Ballon D'or too, but I'm not sure I agree with it. All defenders are basically just the guys when growing up that ultimately didn't have the skill, vision or artistry to play other positions. They're the stoppers and destroyers of the more naturally talented players at the end of the day. Of course there are some that have turned it into an art and recieve the adulation that they deserve, but these arguments are always weighted in favour of attackers and midfielders for a reason IMO. Fans mainly watch football largely for goals, skill and attacking play at the end of the day. That Coloccini fella is quite alright at football imo. Well yeah, but that's half my point. Most of us love Colo for the class on the ball he brings to the position. It's the same for a lot of the greatest defenders ever, they are often appreciated because they have attributes that lend themselves also to other positions on the pitch. The great defenders weren't just appreciated for their positioning and tackling, but for things like ability on the ball, distribution and for leadership qualities. I'm not saying great defenders can't be appreciated, but there are few out there that I'd generally said I enjoy watching put in a masterclass especially if you are a neutral to the game. Most of the ones in that category in my lifetime are Italians. It's a begrudging acceptance of their brilliance in their position, whereas it will always be easier for people to appreciate the creators and goalscorers IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I do understand you mean now HTT, but it's still contradicting in a way. It is completely contradictory. To an idiot aye... Easy man It kinda is, I do get your points but you got to understand though that what you are saying is that teams were more offensive back then hence it was easier to score goals. I know what you mean, but it does contradict what you were arguing against. I'm not saying it was easier though, that's the thing, just that conditions were so that more goals were a result. Same for Cole at Newcastle and even Messi at Barca. Btw, it is widely accepted that players back then had more technical ability and that the talent pool if you like was more evenly spread hence just one reason why teams were more even. Players maybe quicker, stronger and more tactically astute today but technically they are not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I'd be interested to know what people think about the lack of defenders that crop up in best player ever arguments. It always seems to be a criticism of awards like the Ballon D'or too, but I'm not sure I agree with it. All defenders are basically just the guys when growing up that ultimately didn't have the skill, vision or artistry to play other positions. They're the stoppers and destroyers of the more naturally talented players at the end of the day. Of course there are some that have turned it into an art and recieve the adulation that they deserve, but these arguments are always weighted in favour of attackers and midfielders for a reason IMO. Fans mainly watch football largely for goals, skill and attacking play at the end of the day. Agree. I think there's a limit to how good a player you can be playing in defence before you should play in a different position. The players that are considered the best ever are because they are/were outstanding at almost everything. I don't believe that you can be that player and play in defence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is there anyone currently/recently in their prime that would make the list in people's opinions? I agree with all the suggestions but I was more thinking about the current crop plying their trade. The likes of Silva, Hummels etc. As Tooj said... Philipp Lahm has probably been the most consistant of full backs in recent years. Not really a great though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is there anyone currently/recently in their prime that would make the list in people's opinions? I agree with all the suggestions but I was more thinking about the current crop plying their trade. The likes of Silva, Hummels etc. As Tooj said... Quite honestly, no. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 To be frank, only freaks like Messi are put in the "best ever" list while still at their prime. You usually need a long career before this kind of judgement can be passed. Ironically, I remember people classing Ronaldinho as one of the greats while he was still in his prime, yet I don't think anybody would put him there nowadays. (I probably would if his prime lasted more, though). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ronaldinho was amazing. Showpony, the man was so entertaining, I would watch him in his prime over Messi all day cause he would do some amazing stuff. But aye, if his prime lasted for more than 2 season then yeah maybe he would've been there. Thing is he still oozes some type of class but is so slow it pisses me off. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ronaldinho was amazing. Showpony, the man was so entertaining, I would watch him in his prime over Messi all day cause he would do some amazing stuff. But aye, if his prime lasted for more than 2 season then yeah maybe he would've been there. Thing is he still oozes some type of class but is so slow it pisses me off. Ronaldinho was the ultimate flair player. I loved when Cruyff said that Ronaldinho wasn't a smart player, and got a right bollocking from the Barcelona media. But he was so right... Ronaldinho was always running into blind alleys but he was so f***ing brilliant that time and again he'd get bailed off by his ridiculous tricks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Lio is the best ever, but there's never be a more entertaining player to watch than Ronaldinho at his best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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