ponsaelius Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Harder to score against. Didn't we concede 1 in 6 playing 4-3-3? Exactly its quite frankly rubbish that 4-4-2 is harder to score against if anything its more open than 4-3-3...... We also pass the ball alot better in 4-3-3 and as the old saying goes " if you dont have the ball you cant score" I fail to see how 4-4-2 is more solid defensively..... the 4-3-3 goes into a more compact 4-5-1 without the ball aswell. It's more flexible, fluid when going forward and compact when defending.... i fail to see a downside. it's more the personnel and their compatability to the system than the system itself. for all i've been saying all season about not playing two upfront, it's been more so down to what i believe would get the best out of the personnel we have rather than believing one system is generally better than another. given other players i may well think 4-4-2 may be better for us. This absolutely. It suits the players, they're more confident in it and as a result we look more composed and fluid. The defence being better is just a byproduct of that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Harder to score against. Didn't we concede 1 in 6 playing 4-3-3? Exactly its quite frankly rubbish that 4-4-2 is harder to score against if anything its more open than 4-3-3...... We also pass the ball alot better in 4-3-3 and as the old saying goes " if you dont have the ball you cant score" I fail to see how 4-4-2 is more solid defensively..... the 4-3-3 goes into a more compact 4-5-1 without the ball aswell. It's more flexible, fluid when going forward and compact when defending.... i fail to see a downside. it's more the personnel and their compatability to the system than the system itself. for all i've been saying all season about not playing two upfront, it's been more so down to what i believe would get the best out of the personnel we have rather than believing one system is generally better than another. given other players i may well think 4-4-2 may be better for us. Yh i agree with that, but my post is generally aimed at the fact that in my belief our players are more suited to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3..... I know for the first half of the season we used 4-4-2 but we didnt have Cisse then, we didnt know Jonas could perform so well in a CM role, Ben Arfa was'nt match fit and of course due to Jonas new role it allowed to Cabaye to have more creative freedom and thus our best run of the season came.... I hope and expect we sign players next season aimed at playing 4-3-3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 4-3-3 worked wonders defensively against Wigan, what was i thinking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 4-3-3 worked wonders defensively against Wigan, what was i thinking. 20 minute sample. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 4-3-3 worked wonders defensively against Wigan, what was i thinking. Yeah and 4-4-2 worked wonderfully against Spurs, Fulham etc etc didnt it? also basing a system's defensive structure on one game? seriously besides most of Wigans goals were due to individual errors and a wonder goal from Di Santo. Nothing to do with systems and also how many teams in this division plays 3-5-2/3-4-3? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 4-3-3 worked wonders defensively against Wigan, what was i thinking. Yeah and 4-4-2 worked wonderfully against Spurs, Fulham etc etc didnt it? also basing a system's defensive structure on one game? seriously besides most of Wigans goals were due to individual errors and a wonder goal from Di Santo. Nothing to do with systems and also how many teams in this division plays 3-5-2/3-4-3? Wasn't that the first time we played 433? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Harder to score against. Didn't we concede 1 in 6 playing 4-3-3? Exactly its quite frankly rubbish that 4-4-2 is harder to score against if anything its more open than 4-3-3...... We also pass the ball alot better in 4-3-3 and as the old saying goes " if you dont have the ball you cant score" I fail to see how 4-4-2 is more solid defensively..... the 4-3-3 goes into a more compact 4-5-1 without the ball aswell. It's more flexible, fluid when going forward and compact when defending.... i fail to see a downside. it's more the personnel and their compatability to the system than the system itself. for all i've been saying all season about not playing two upfront, it's been more so down to what i believe would get the best out of the personnel we have rather than believing one system is generally better than another. given other players i may well think 4-4-2 may be better for us. I'm a proper div, i agree with that, but my post is generally aimed at the fact that in my belief our players are more suited to a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1/4-2-1-3..... I know for the first half of the season we used 4-4-2 but we didnt have Cisse then, we didnt know Jonas could perform so well in a CM role, Ben Arfa was'nt match fit and of course due to Jonas new role it allowed to Cabaye to have more creative freedom and thus our best run of the season came.... I hope and expect we sign players next season aimed at playing 4-3-3. since we signed marveaux i wanted and was expecting 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 with marveaux/ben arfa playing in and around ba. with injuries that wasn't to be but i still think that is the best way fulfill ben arfa's potential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I thought the 1st time we tried 433 was at home against QPR iirc. (Correct me if im wrong like). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I thought the 1st time we tried 433 was at home against QPR iirc. (Correct me if im wrong like). with best very wide left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 4-3-3 worked wonders defensively against Wigan, what was i thinking. Yeah and 4-4-2 worked wonderfully against Spurs, Fulham etc etc didnt it? also basing a system's defensive structure on one game? seriously besides most of Wigans goals were due to individual errors and a wonder goal from Di Santo. Nothing to do with systems and also how many teams in this division plays 3-5-2/3-4-3? Wasn't that the first time we played 433? Pretty sure we played 4-4-2 in the second half? correct me if iam wrong because i was out doing family stuff that day and missed it and based my opinion on MOTD If iam wrong i'll take that part back but still the point stands..... blaming a big score line is silly as most of the team this season we have lost due to individual mistakes..... not due to system faults. Although 4-3-3 is better for us and i stand by that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Wigans goals came from wide areas bar the 4th, specifically because we played 4-3-3 & they exploited it. Quality of opposition & midfield strength obviously comes into it. The best sides arent going to be easily outplayed by us & our defence is more vunerable if that isnt happening with 4-3-3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 For me, none of our players are suited to the 4-4-2. Ben Arfa is not suited to playing wide in it, Jonas isn't productive enough as an orthadox wide man, Ba and Cisse don't seem to gel as a partnership and both are very poor at recieving the long-balls and holding up play. Cabaye looks far more effective when pushed forward from midfield. When Marveaux gets back he's the kind of playe who can drift and play in and around forwards. He's got good crossing technique but he really doesn't strike me as a flying winger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Wigans goals came from wide areas bar the 4th, specifically because we played 4-3-3 & they exploited it. Quality of opposition & midfield strength obviously comes into it. The best sides arent going to be easily outplayed by us & our defence is more vunerable if that isnt happening with 4-3-3. 3rd and fourth goals we were playing 3-5-2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Wigans goals came from wide areas bar the 4th, specifically because we played 4-3-3 & they exploited it. Quality of opposition & midfield strength obviously comes into it. The best sides arent going to be easily outplayed by us & our defence is more vunerable if that isnt happening with 4-3-3. did we play 4-3-3 v wigan. it's one of those games where we tried to be too fluid and instead defended like jelly and i really didn't have a clue what the plan was, which often happens when we go a goal behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 For me, none of our players are suited to the 4-4-2. Ben Arfa is not suited to playing wide in it, Jonas isn't productive enough as an orthadox wide man, Ba and Cisse don't seem to gel as a partnership and both are very poor at recieving the long-balls and holding up play. Cabaye looks far more effective when pushed forward from midfield. When Marveaux gets back he's the kind of playe who can drift and play in and around forwards. He's got good crossing technique but he really doesn't strike me as a flying winger. also to me Marveaux is a much as a winger as Silva is they strike me in style atleast as very similar players... And yh the 3rd and 4th goals we were playing 3-5-2 and the first two were defensive errors ( Williamson and Colo) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Theyre not intended to be suited towards 4-4-2 in an attacking sense when we play the best sides. 4-4-2 is the reason we got results for most of the season playing dodgy attacking football. We're very hard to score against & our strikers are class. Its been that simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Theyre not intended to be suited towards 4-4-2 in an attacking sense when we play the best sides. 4-4-2 is the reason we got results for most of the season playing dodgy attacking football. We're very hard to score against & our strikers are class. Its been that simple. if you want to look at it like that we've played 4-5-1 nearly all season when out of possession. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Theyre not intended to be suited towards 4-4-2 in an attacking sense when we play the best sides. 4-4-2 is the reason we got results for most of the season playing dodgy attacking football. We're very hard to score against & our strikers are class. Its been that simple. First half of the season yes but we are a different team now..... we use to pump it up to Best or Shola and Ba would feed off any knockdowns or flicks..... Now we are built around Ben Arfa, Cisse, Cabaye etc etc and those players dont fit 4-4-2 it is designed for kick and run football ( there was more subtlety to it than that but point remains) technical players like the ones we have in the team now are not suited to the gameplan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Yes but against the best attackers, Pardew is more concerned with covering our defence than choosing a formation that makes us our most efficient going forwards. The balance is in their favour otherwise, due to the standard of our defence even if our attack is better than theirs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Yes but against the best attackers, Pardew is more concerned with covering our defence than choosing a formation that makes us our most efficient going forwards. The balance is in their favour otherwise, due to the standard of our defence even if our attack is better than theirs. either way it's a 4-5-1 defensivly when out of possession. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I aint disagreeing with ya. This started because i was saying we didnt leave 4-3-3 due to Demba Ba throwing a strop, its because Pardew thinks it makes us harder to score against. Next season hopefully we'll stay 4-3-3 with a stronger defence anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 I aint disagreeing with ya. This started because i was saying we didnt leave 4-3-3 due to Demba Ba throwing a strop, its because Pardew thinks it makes us harder to score against. Next season hopefully we'll stay 4-3-3 with a stronger defence anyway. we seem to have a pretty similar defence regardless of the formation, it's when in possession that the differences appear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Just that we play more long ball stuff, so we can keep men behind the ball making us harder to score against Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Just that we play more long ball stuff, so we can keep men behind the ball making us harder to score against alternativly we give the ball away more making us easier to score against. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Nah, id say we've seen it doesnt if you defend well. Not as much as having space exposed by good players anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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