Acquisitions - moving in the right direction.

[Stu]

Well, it all depends on the very reason we bought those players and if we would have bought similar quality had they not been available. Ashley decides he wants to be very tight with the purse strings and we have a scout at the club who seems to be very good at spotting good players. After so many avenues he found going the wrong way, he turns to Carr and frugality to save money and bring in players under that can hopefully perform to see if that would work. If not we'd have been absolutely fucking livid. Like I said, for me at the minute it is another gamble he is taking. The more tennis balls you throw at a fucking coconut the better chance you have of winning one. If it turns out okay then fan fucking tastic. If it improves us enough and he fucks off then great, if it improves us enough and continues in the same vein he can stay as long as he is doing so.

Luck doesn't even exist I suppose, but if you win on a long bet you'd consider yourself lucky. His 100 -1 horse is ahead after the second hedge at the moment. After all the other trucks he's thrown his money at I'm not going to listen to any of his tips just yet.

 

But he keeps hitting on successful transfers with a far greater regularity than we've ever been used to, is he really just having a purple patch of 18months?

[Interpolic]

Big lack of £35m transfer fee talk in this thread, I'm surprised.  Summer just gone was the first summer in a while when we appeared truly lively and pro-active in the transfer market (I presume because of the 'money in the bank') and we still shipped a lot of players out and left gaping holes in our squad, leaving us pretty vulnerable imo.

 

We do appear to be being a bit smarter with the players we bring in though without a doubt, ensuring they fit the bill financially, culturally, etc.  I'm all for that and I think they've done incredibly well getting the likes of Cabaye and Tiote in.  Players like Obertan, Gosling, Santon and Marveaux are bigger risks due to injury/form/fitness/etc though, and it's very easy to go on like things are hunky dory after 7 games.  There are holes in our squad that WILL get badly exposed barring a minor miracle, I'm half hoping that the injuries and suspensions come in mid to late December to force our hand in the transfer market in January, as that's the least painful time it could happen and Ashley seems to like to try his luck in this regard if things are going vaguely well or we're basically surviving.

 

But yes, we appear to be putting more thought into the players we bring in and that's great.  It fucked me off when we used to spunk a fortune on a player like Albert Luque without any thought on the mentality of the player, how he'd fit into the dressing room, and how he'd fit into the team.  More Tiotes, more Cabayes, more keeping your best players, and I'm happy as we're moving in the right direction but I do think we could show more ambition with the level of spending and ensuring that key positions are covered so that we can make a real go of it in all competitions.

[johnnypd]

it's clear the transfer policy has improved massively since Ashley's first disasterous fling with a DofF system. that whole scheme was an abortion from start to finish. not all the ideas were necessarily bad - it was just as much about the implementation, which is no surprise as Ashley came into the role with zero understanding of the sport. it was a grubby, pathetic era.

 

basically they've learned you can't look at a transfer policy in isolation as a thing in itself - it's always about how this policy works with the first team and the manager - and that you can't follow rules too strictly, they have to be guiding principles rather than set-in-stone laws.

 

they're basically obsessed with value, which can limit our transfers to players who for one reason or another are going for less than they should or could go for. so you end up with players who have release clauses, in last years of contract, are in dispute with their clubs, players you can unsettle in the media, players with injury problems, players from smaller teams in smaller leagues etc. On the one hand it is great as you rarely overpay, and it means we put potential signings under far more scrutiny than we did in the Dennis Wise youtube era. on the other hand it is risky, can limit who is available for you to purchase, and is frustrating for the fans who want to see the money available spent.

 

though it is too early to tell, that's mostly worked so far this summer - fingers crossed Marv and Ba get/stay fit, Cabaye doesn't turn into a stroppy frenchman, Santon isn't the new Pistone etc. i think the policy has limited us with Obertan, however. we should've spent big to replace Barton and have gone for an erratic player with potential instead. not saying he's bad or won't fulfil his potential, but we should've gone for more assured quality, or someone with much greater potential, imo. then there's the striker issue, though Ba and Best have made this less of an problem. and of course it's a shame that we had to let 2 or 3 good players go in the past 10 months.

 

Other good things we've done -primarily incentivised contracts - a bit shitty for existing players/managers who have previously done well, but a sound idea if new signings are receptive to the idea. just adds that extra bit of motivation for wet away trips on a winter's night. and going after numerous targets at once - something we first seemed to experience going after Tiote and the Uruguayan fella at the same time, and negotiating for Cissokho, Pieters and Santon simultaneously. that's nothing radical, just common sense, and something we occassionly did in the past as well.

[ponsaelius]

Couple of kinky posts there ^

 

[PRL]

Threads and responses like this are the reason this is the only toon forum I bother with. Cheers lads

[Guest magpie99]

We have done well this year in the transfer market and assuming we continue to do weel in the PL this year with decent cup runs and we finish somewhere about 7th to 8th and we manage to keep our best players out of the hands of the top clubs, I think the following should apply in the summer:

 

1.  Smith contract ends, leaves club on a free, savings 3 million a year in salary

2.  Sell Perch to a championship club, 500K plus a further 500K in salary savings

3.  Sell Ranger to a championship club, 1 mill plus salary savings of 1 million

4.  Release Lovenkrands from contract salary savings 1 mill.

5.  Promote Harper to assistant goalkeeper coach

6.  Keep Shola on in a capacity of Chief brotherly motivator and Sunderland slayer

 

What we need to do to upgrade further:

 

1.  Agree extension to Collocini contract

2.  Extend/upgrade contracts for Sameobi, Krul, Guthrie etc

3.  Sign two forwards, one from europe and one from the championship, possibly Maiga and Maynard

4.  Sign Hollett on the cheap

5.  Sign Peeters from PSV, versatile left back, central defender

6.  Send out promising youngsters for further lower league loan experience

7.  Sell Forster to C eltic and buy young promising back up for Krul

 

My estimation of expenditure would be something like expenditure of around 15 million pounds including salary costs.

 

We would then have a tremendous, capable young squad with cover in all positions and the real prospect of breaking into the top 6 at the very least.

 

Squad:

 

Goalkeepers

Krul, A.N Other, Elliott, Harper, Sodeberg (loan out for season)

 

Defenders

Santon, Simpson, Collocini, Saylor, Raylor, Willamson, Peeters, Kadar, Dummett, Henderson, Tavernier (lastg 3 loaned out to champion ship clubs)

 

Midfield

Obertan, Hollett, Cabaye, Tiote, Guthrie, Gosling, Guttierez, Marveaux, Sameobi, Richardson, Inman (Last 2 loaned out)

 

Forwards

Maiga, Ben Arfa, Ba, Best, Maynard, Shola, Hooper, Airey ( last 2 loaned out to championship club)

 

So, that is my optimistic vision for next season, if all goes according to plan

[Stu]

We do appear to be being a bit smarter with the players we bring in though without a doubt, ensuring they fit the bill financially, culturally, etc.  I'm all for that and I think they've done incredibly well getting the likes of Cabaye and Tiote in.  Players like Obertan, Gosling, Santon and Marveaux are bigger risks due to injury/form/fitness/etc though, and it's very easy to go on like things are hunky dory after 7 games. 

But yes, we appear to be putting more thought into the players we bring in and that's great.  It fucked me off when we used to spunk a fortune on a player like Albert Luque without any thought on the mentality of the player, how he'd fit into the dressing room, and how he'd fit into the team. 

 

cut out the parts which deal with the 'level of ambition' or whether or not we've brought enough enough of the right kind of players - on reflection, I think I was trying to highlight how we're now managing to hit with the majority of our transfers (very few reds, mostly amber/green). Could even look at other Premiership clubs over a similar period and see how successful they have/haven't been  - I don't have the info to hand but my hunch is that several of our competitors are still bringing in talented but unsuitable players along with "name" players who don't bring the improvement in performance that their wages and transfer fee suggest.

[cp40]

We do appear to be being a bit smarter with the players we bring in though without a doubt, ensuring they fit the bill financially, culturally, etc.  I'm all for that and I think they've done incredibly well getting the likes of Cabaye and Tiote in.  Players like Obertan, Gosling, Santon and Marveaux are bigger risks due to injury/form/fitness/etc though, and it's very easy to go on like things are hunky dory after 7 games. 

But yes, we appear to be putting more thought into the players we bring in and that's great.  It fucked me off when we used to spunk a fortune on a player like Albert Luque without any thought on the mentality of the player, how he'd fit into the dressing room, and how he'd fit into the team. 

 

cut out the parts which deal with the 'level of ambition' or whether or not we've brought enough enough of the right kind of players - on reflection, I think I was trying to highlight how we're now managing to hit with the majority of our transfers (very few reds, mostly amber/green). Could even look at other Premiership clubs over a similar period and see how successful they have/haven't been  - I don't have the info to hand but my hunch is that several of our competitors are still bringing in talented but unsuitable players along with "name" players who don't bring the improvement in performance that their wages and transfer fee suggest.

 

 

 

sunderland would be an interesting comparison

 

(obsessed)

[Spider Jerusalem]

Nobody is denying we've bought some shit in the past, but you can mostly see a connection between who was manager at the time and the players they bought in respect to how good they were / well they did.

 

There are a couple of ommissions from your list though:-

 

Jan 2009 - Kevin Nolan - Not the most mobile player but instrumental in getting us up and keeping us up

Jan 2009 - Ryan Taylor - Bought as back up squad player.  Not great, possibly average but has scored a few.

Jan 2009 - Haris Vuckic - One of the brightest youngsters at the club.  Yet to be given a real go in the team.

 

As for your ratings I'd say there are a couple of post promotion signings that you have rated a bit highly on your scale.

 

Jan 2010 - Danny Simpson - First choice RB for the club because he's better than James Perch.

Jan 2011 - Hatem Ben Arfa - A disasterous first season for us due to an awful injury, but let's face it, he's played barely more than two full matches worth of time in the League so far and we don't know whether he's capable of living up to that short time on the pitch or standing up to another crunching tackle that some clogger tries to smash him with.  Potentially our next Peter Beardsley but also equally potentially our next Albert Luque.

Aug 2011 - Gabriel Obertan - First choice RW for the club mostly because he's the only RW at the club.  Hasn't looked great so far when starting matches but after several years of non-playing for Man U definitely needs time to get into the swing of the Premier League.

 

As somebody has mentioned earlier, this is all well and good at the moment seven matches into the season, and with hindsight slating past players for being injury prone, shite, gutless, but looking back a few years from here there is a good chance we could be saying the same for this current group of lads. 

[Stu]

Nobody is denying we've bought some shit in the past, but you can mostly see a connection between who was manager at the time and the players they bought in respect to how good they were / well they did.

 

There are a couple of ommissions from your list though:-

 

Oh and the 'missing' transfers during the period we like to call: "YOU FAT COCKNEY BASTARD, GET OUT OF OUR CLUB"

 

Jan 2009 Peter Lovenkrands Unattached  Free The height of our ambition at the time, chipped in with a few goals

Jan 2009 Haris Vučkić NK Domzale  fee tbc Development Squad - knocking on 1st team squad

Jan 2009 Kevin Nolan Bolton Wanderers  £4m I think we will look back on this as a successful signing overall as he came, we got relegated, then he scored a ridiculous amount of goals in 2 seasons before we were able (by fortune or design) to upgrade on him.

Feb 2009 Ryan Taylor Wigan Athletic  P/ex with N'Zogbia Came in, has done an average job overall as a utility player. Will forever be remembered for winning against the m*ckems.

Feb 2009 Samuel Adjei Jonkopings Sodra IF  fee tbc Developmental prospect - never made it

Aug 2009  Danny Simpson  Manchester United  Loan 

Sep 2009  Peter Lovenkrands  Unattached  Free The height of our ambition at the time, chipped in with a few goals

Sep 2009  Zurab Khizanishvili  Blackburn Rovers  Loan

Sept 2009  Marlon Harewood  Aston Villa  Loan

Nov 2009  Fabrice Pancrate  Unattached  Free Brought in for 'experience', didn't do a lot except [i[that[/i] goal

 

 

Aaron Spear Developmental Squad. Got bullied, never made it

JJ Hooper Developmental Squad.

[Stu]

As somebody has mentioned earlier, this is all well and good at the moment seven matches into the season, and with hindsight slating past players for being injury prone, shite, gutless, but looking back a few years from here there is a good chance we could be saying the same for this current group of lads. 

 

Again, when someone mentioned this earlier (so you have read the thread and clearly ignored my subsequent posts ) I explained that the point being was that the recent signings (last 18months) appear not only to have been good players but also have the right mental attributes to settle in the Prem/North East. The structure and support network at the club could also be a factor in this, as raised by several posters.

[Stu]

As for your ratings I'd say there are a couple of post promotion signings that you have rated a bit highly on your scale.

 

Jan 2010 - Danny Simpson - First choice RB for the club because he's better than James Perch

think you're letting your current appraisal of Simpson's ability/performance taint his overall contribution to the club as a low-money signing.

 

Jan 2011 - Hatem Ben Arfa - A disasterous first season for us due to an awful injury, but let's face it, he's played barely more than two full matches worth of time in the League so far and we don't know whether he's capable of living up to that short time on the pitch or standing up to another crunching tackle that some clogger tries to smash him with.  Potentially our next Peter Beardsley but also equally potentially our next Albert Luque.

 

For £5.8m, he's delivered far more in hope and optimism to NUFC than Luque ever did. Firstly, he delivered in his brief appearances before the leg-breaker; secondly, he's shown flashes of his qualities in the brief appearances since. Never in the history of N-O has a potential signing generated such fervour and enthusiasm - 100pages before he'd even made the airport IIRC?

 

Again, we may look back in 3 years and wonder why all of this hope and optimism disappeared into a black hole and why Hatem Ben Arfa became Hasn't Been Arfa'd. We can only connect those dots in the future.

[Spider Jerusalem]

Again, when someone mentioned this earlier (so you have read the thread and clearly ignored my subsequent posts ) I explained that the point being was that the recent signings (last 18months) appear not only to have been good players but also have the right mental attributes to settle in the Prem/North East. The structure and support network at the club could also be a factor in this, as raised by several posters.

 

No need to get so defensive, I'm not having a pop, just skimmed through a few pages in my laziness (think you've under-rated Nolan as well btw  ).

 

I am mostly happy with the players that we've bought over the past 18 months though, as I said in one of the transfer window threads the under the current restrictions the club seems to be attracting more of the type of player who wants to be on the field for us rather than the likes of Marcelino, Babayaro and Luque who would avoid matches for months on end with hair-strain and only came here for the money that was on offer.  I wasn't happy, and still not to be honest, that we didn't spend a bigger chunk of the Andy Carroll money than the £5.5 - £6.5 that we did over the transfer windows this year, but glad that we didn't go mental and spunk the lot on some bad purchases like Alan Smith where we can't shift him because of his insane wages.  If Graham Carr can keep up his record and we get 1 or 2 in January of the same ilk that he managed to spot in the past then we should be more than comfortable this year.

[Stu]

No bother, just had to explain the same point 3 times now my own fault for not writing a very clear OP

[Spider Jerusalem]

As for your ratings I'd say there are a couple of post promotion signings that you have rated a bit highly on your scale.

 

Jan 2010 - Danny Simpson - First choice RB for the club because he's better than James Perch

think you're letting your current appraisal of Simpson's ability/performance taint his overall contribution to the club as a low-money signing.

 

Jan 2011 - Hatem Ben Arfa - A disasterous first season for us due to an awful injury, but let's face it, he's played barely more than two full matches worth of time in the League so far and we don't know whether he's capable of living up to that short time on the pitch or standing up to another crunching tackle that some clogger tries to smash him with.  Potentially our next Peter Beardsley but also equally potentially our next Albert Luque.

 

For £5.8m, he's delivered far more in hope and optimism to NUFC than Luque ever did. Firstly, he delivered in his brief appearances before the leg-breaker; secondly, he's shown flashes of his qualities in the brief appearances since. Never in the history of N-O has a potential signing generated such fervour and enthusiasm - 100pages before he'd even made the airport IIRC?

 

Again, we may look back in 3 years and wonder why all of this hope and optimism disappeared into a black hole and why Hatem Ben Arfa became Hasn't Been Arfa'd. We can only connect those dots in the future.

 

Can you not remember the hope and optimism of the Luque / Owen / Shearer dynamic up front, all the while forgetting who was managing the team at the time.....

[S.S.R.]

Signing Ben Arfa permanently - and not discarding him after his injury -was worth the money for the positive light it put in with French players.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Signing Ben Arfa permanently - and not discarding him after his injury -was worth the money for the positive light it put in with French players.

 

True, also no doubt in my mind that he'll become an iconic player for us. The lad has more talent than almost any other player we've had in the last 25 years.

[Stu]

Signing Ben Arfa permanently - and not discarding him after his injury -was worth the money for the positive light it put in with French players.

 

True, also no doubt in my mind that he'll become an iconic player for us. The lad has more talent than almost any other player we've had in the last 25 years.

 

Given a nod to the voices of cynicism in this thread, I genuinely thought Emre and Luque were a class above anyone else we'd signed at the time (looking back through the list and they're still the 2 names that jump out at me). Probably a symptom of FM though

[Flip]

s*** post Stu

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, very good post.

[Stu]

Honestly, very god post.

 

 

Quoted before the edit

[Flip]

[UV]

Players with 5+ games.

 

05-06

5*Red - Boumsong (30), Babayaro (26), Faye (14), Moore(8), Luque (6)

4*Amber - Parker (26), Emre (19), Owen (10), Clarke (8)

1*Green - Solano (27)

= 58pts, 7th

Defence & defensive mids = 4*Red, 2*Amber, goals conceded = 42

 

08-09

3*Red - Duff (28), Geremi (11), Viduka (6)

7*Amber - Guthrie (21), Owen (21), Martins (21), Nolan (10), Lovenkrands (8), Taylor (8), Barton (6)

5*Green - Coloccini (37), Bassong (26), Enrique (24), Gutiérrez (23), Beye (22)

= 34pts, 18th

Defence & defensive mids = 4*Green, 1*Amber, goals conceded = 59

 

Stu's logic & "impartial" ratings = fail

[Stu]

 

Stu's logic & "impartial" ratings = fail

 

Nice info but it's a massive stretch of logic to assume the success of a transfer is the sole reason for a team's success on the pitch

 

Didn't that last team have 4 managers?

 

 

[UV]

There's no doubt from a managerial standpoint a combination of Souness & Roeder is going to be hard to beat even with far superior players as you have incontravertably shown with your completely objective analysis.

[Stu]

There's no doubt from a managerial standpoint a combination of Souness & Roeder is going to be hard to beat even with far superior players as you have incontravertably shown with your completely objective analysis.

 

have you completely missed the point?

 

Person A - we're lucky this new signing seems to have settled to the Prem/NUFC so quickly

 

Person B - thinking about it, haven't quite a few of our recent signings under this new 'transfer policy' settled and performed quite quickly?

*looks at list*

it certainly would appear that way, we did sign 'quality' players before but they never adapted to the Prem/NUFC, the last 18months have had definitely seen an improvement in our transfer success rate.

 

 

 

 

(sometime later)

Person C - WHY DID THESE BETTER PLAYERS GET RELEGATED?!?!!?!!1111