Dogawful Officiating - Dave Coote suspended

[Cf]

18 minutes ago, Unbelievable said:

Sorry to answer my own question, but seemingly it was not: https://sportsbrief.com/football/53845-psg-newcastle-mbappes-penalty-shows-difference-uefas-handball-rules-epls/

 

Correct decision then, based on the current rules of the competion?

 

No. The rules say either "deliberate" or "making your body unnaturally bigger".

 

The ball was fired at Livramento in a split second from close range. His arm was slightly in front of him because he was running forwards and he has arms. So it was neither deliberate or unnatural.

 

The only possible reason for awarding that penalty is "I fucked up and caved under the pressure".

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Cf

[Displayname]

One thing is for VAR not to overturn the pen if the ref had given it. But for VAR to step in and claim that the ref made an obvious error with that "handball"? Its insane.

[Hanshithispantz]

12 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

Not sure it even would. Some decisions will never be black and white and it still ultimately comes down to one man's opinion.

 

Slow motion replays of tackles are a disaster in particular. You can make tackles that are soft yellows look like stonewall reds with the way they analyse them.

I've said before I would only give VAR 2 angles and no slo-motion. If they cannot male a decision after 3-4 watches the referees decision stands.

 

 

[TaylorJ_01]

I'm just absolutely sick of VAR. It's ruining nearly every game. It takes up 100% of the chat and seems to make one absolutely woeful decision per game. It just feels like it isn't compatible.

 

And this is at the top end of the game. It's even worse in SPL etc where you have poorer quality refs and slower tech. It's also sapped up all the refs into SPL and the lower leagues are now reffed by random cretins.

 

Could it ever be binned or are we too far gone?

[WideopenMag]

3 minutes ago, TaylorJ_01 said:

I'm just absolutely sick of VAR. It's ruining nearly every game. It takes up 100% of the chat and seems to make one absolutely woeful decision per game. It just feels like it isn't compatible.

 

And this is at the top end of the game. It's even worse in SPL etc where you have poorer quality refs and slower tech. It's also sapped up all the refs into SPL and the lower leagues are now reffed by random cretins.

 

Could it ever be binned or are we too far gone?

Isn't what footballs meant to be about either, can't even celebrate goals properly and actively looking for reasons to disallow perfectly good goals. Calling offsides down to the millimetre when no advantage has been gained. Just isn't in the spirit of the game. Utter nonsense. 

[pubteam]

Var assistant has been removed from the panel for today's game, uefa realising there has been an error?

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by pubteam

[Unbelievable]

25 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

No. The rules say either "deliberate" or "making your body unnaturally bigger".

 

The ball was fired at Livramento in a split second from close range. His arm was slightly in front of him because he was running forwards and he has arms. So it was neither deliberate or unnatural.

 

The only possible reason for awarding that penalty is "I fucked up and caved under the pressure".

 

 

 

 

I think the unnatural position call is quite subjective. Yes he was running, but he was also trying to block the cross. Put it this way, with the UCL rule as it is, if we need a goal against Milan in the final round and we're denied a penalty when a Milan defender handles the ball like that in extra time I'd be miffed.

[Geordie Ahmed]

5 minutes ago, TaylorJ_01 said:

I'm just absolutely sick of VAR. It's ruining nearly every game. It takes up 100% of the chat and seems to make one absolutely woeful decision per game. It just feels like it isn't compatible.

 

And this is at the top end of the game. It's even worse in SPL etc where you have poorer quality refs and slower tech. It's also sapped up all the refs into SPL and the lower leagues are now reffed by random cretins.

 

Could it ever be binned or are we too far gone?

I think it's too far gone, invested a lot of time and money into it, they won't go back

 

So focus needs to be on how to improve it, how to make the laws clearer and how to up the standards of the referees 

[Cf]

Just now, Unbelievable said:

 

I think the unnatural position call is quite subjective. Yes he was running, but he was also trying to block the cross. Put it this way, with the UCL rule as it is, if we need a goal against Milan in the final round and we're denied a penalty when a Milan defender handles the ball like that in extra time I'd be miffed.

 

But a defenders job is to block crosses. That's why we have them. We could just not defend I guess. That way we don't need to worry about balls being blasted at defenders from a few feet away resulting in penalties.

[joeyt]

 

 

 

[pubteam]

Var should be forced to look at decisions in real time, get rid of this slow mo bullshit. They also need to follow the clear and obvious mistake rule that they most of the time just ignore. They are doing what they said they wouldn't  do and re reffing the game.

 

That ref won't be getting any more major finals as he's shown he's weak under pressure.

[Unbelievable]

This is a good article on our VAR moment: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2023/11/28/newcastle-united-penalty-var-psg-referee-uefa-rules/

 

I agree fully with Keith Hackett's opinion:

 

Quote

The decision to penalise Livramento for handball highlights why the law needs a revisit by Ifab. It won’t help Howe’s side now, of course, but there needs to be a re-think over the law to stop inconsistent decision-making.

The law states that it is an offence if a player deliberately touches the ball with their hand or arm, for example moving the hand/arm towards the ball. The officials have to judge in this situation if Livramento deliberately handled the ball.

Given his forward momentum and downward movement of the arm (see below), the match officials determined an offence had been committed. But these decisions become so subjective and referees must take into account the movement of the player and the natural position of the arm. I can understand Newcastle’s frustration on this point.

I have an ongoing concern that the handball law is becoming too subjective among officials and it is not being helped with the constant slow-motion replays that change the context around an incident. I would get rid of slow-motion replays for one, as I don’t believe there is a benefit to it, and instead just play in real time. All these slow-motion replays complicate the decision-making process. The majority of refs would give a decision based off slow-motion, but that is not the reality of the situation - it is a false picture.

Last April, in their guidelines for the upcoming season, the Uefa board recommended that there should be clarity that no handball offence should be called on a player if the ball is previously deflected from their own body. But this recommendation was not implemented – and Newcastle paid the price at the Parc des Princes.

The best way forward is to make things a lot simpler as regards the handball law, and apply it across all competitions so there is a consistency in decision making. Re-work the law and make it simpler – merely is it a deliberate handball or not – and do away with the slow motion replays, and we may begin to see progress.

 

[Lush Vlad]

10 minutes ago, TaylorJ_01 said:

I'm just absolutely sick of VAR. It's ruining nearly every game. It takes up 100% of the chat and seems to make one absolutely woeful decision per game. It just feels like it isn't compatible.

 

And this is at the top end of the game. It's even worse in SPL etc where you have poorer quality refs and slower tech. It's also sapped up all the refs into SPL and the lower leagues are now reffed by random cretins.

 

Could it ever be binned or are we too far gone?

 

I would love it to be binned, personally.  Goal line technology and maybe for looking at obvious violent conduct off the ball stuff.   So that the punishment fits the crime and the red card is issued there and then.  As opposed to a three game ban afterwards, which doesn't help the team you've just committed the offence against.

 

Never going to happen, though.  The first howler of a decision and everyone would be screaming for it back and wouldn't be able to revert back to accepting human error.

 

Can't stand how it is used for such subjective calls, how long it takes, how much everyone talks about it rather than the game itself.  It's somehow ruined the standard of refereeing and all.  It's complete shit the way it is implemented.  

 

I think the best we can hope for is automated offsides, goal line stuff and somehow reducing the number of times it is used per game.  But by the sounds of it, it's going to get worse and be used more, not less. 

[500bhp]

I'm more pissed off with the 8 minutes of stoppage time. We made no subs, they made about 4, but cant recall the physios being on for any onfield injuries. Should have been 5 minutes added maximum.

[Unbelievable]

5 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

But a defenders job is to block crosses. That's why we have them. We could just not defend I guess. That way we don't need to worry about balls being blasted at defenders from a few feet away resulting in penalties.

It's harsh, I agree, but most non-deliberate hand balls that result in penalties are. Change the rule to make it have to be deliberate (hand to ball) imo.

[joeyt]

The whole pantomime of referees going over to the screen is such a facade they may as well just tell the referee to reverse their decision.

 

I think I remember one occasion Michael Oliver stuck with his decision after being sent to the monitor and pretty much every other decision is changed

[Unbelievable]

2 minutes ago, 500bhp said:

I'm more pissed off with the 8 minutes of stoppage time. We made no subs, they made about 4, but cant recall the physios being on for any onfield injuries. Should have been 5 minutes added maximum.

We had quite a few tactical injuries in the second half like, and Pope was booked for time wasting. In any case, the pen was given in the 3rd (?) minute of ET, so it had little relevance.

[Lush Vlad]

3 minutes ago, pubteam said:

Var should be forced to look at decisions in real time, get rid of this slow mo bullshit. They also need to follow the clear and obvious mistake rule that they most of the time just ignore. They are doing what they said they wouldn't  do and re reffing the game.

 

That ref won't be getting any more major finals as he's shown he's weak under pressure.

 

I might have imagined it.  But I'm sure slow-mo replays, for handballs in particular.  Were originally not going to be used when it was first discussed?  

 

The majority of potential red cards look horrendous in slow mo and all.  But often a yellow at best in real time.  Sometimes even getting the ref to over to the monitor.  With the frame frozen on the exact moment the players studs makes contact with the opposing player's leg.  Not even showing it from the start  

 

It's a complete and utter shambles and this isn't a recent opinion of mine based on last night or Wolves getting fucked over every week, for example.  It's been shit since it's been introduced and is unquestionably getting worse, not better.

[Cf]

2 minutes ago, Unbelievable said:

It's harsh, I agree, but most non-deliberate hand balls that result in penalties are. Change the rule to make it have to be deliberate (hand to ball) imo.

 

That's what unnatural position is there to cover. So you can't just have your arm out wide and claim ball to hand etc.

 

There's a subjectiveness to it sure. But so is there in determining whether it's deliberate or not.

[Guest reefatoon]

22 minutes ago, TaylorJ_01 said:

I'm just absolutely sick of VAR. It's ruining nearly every game. It takes up 100% of the chat and seems to make one absolutely woeful decision per game. It just feels like it isn't compatible.

 

And this is at the top end of the game. It's even worse in SPL etc where you have poorer quality refs and slower tech. It's also sapped up all the refs into SPL and the lower leagues are now reffed by random cretins.

 

Could it ever be binned or are we too far gone?

Totally agree, it’s destroying football as a spectacle. Even when Isak scored last night, I was celebrating but waiting to see if VAR were going to be involved. It’s like that on every goal now.

 

Scrap it and get back to how it was as there are just so many disgusting decisions with it, it’s not fit for purpose when it’s being controlled by absolute idiots watching.

[Unbelievable]

1 minute ago, Cf said:

 

That's what unnatural position is there to cover. So you can't just have your arm out wide and claim ball to hand etc.

 

There's a subjectiveness to it sure. But so is there in determining whether it's deliberate or not.

Agree there is subjectivity to both "unnatural position" and "deliberate", but for me logically the threshold for the latter would be higher, i.e. it wouldn't just be an arm that perhaps could or should have been elsewhere, it's about an arm moving deliberately to make contact with the ball. Considering football is such a low scoring game and these decisions massively impact the outcome, it should really be used only in situations of foul play.

[Sean]

VAR or no VAR, the "smaller" team regularly gets fucked over on a decision. 

 

With VAR, that should theoretically happen less often, but the issue is the conscious or unconscious bias of those officiating. Always has been, always will be.

 

Until robots take over of course.

[pubteam]

3 minutes ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

I might have imagined it.  But I'm sure slow-mo replays, for handballs in particular.  Were originally not going to be used when it was first discussed?  

 

The majority of potential red cards look horrendous in slow mo and all.  But often a yellow at best in real time.  Sometimes even getting the ref to over to the monitor.  With the frame frozen on the exact moment the players studs makes contact with the opposing player's leg.  Not even showing it from the start  

 

It's a complete and utter shambles and this isn't a recent opinion of mine based on last night or Wolves getting fucked over every week, for example.  It's been shit since it's been introduced and is unquestionably getting worse, not better.

Yes, been so many incidents where the slow mo swayed the decision, like Bruno's red card where his foot rolled over the ball, Liverpool also had a similar sending off. Play it at full speed and it's nothing. 

[WideopenMag]

17 minutes ago, pubteam said:

Var should be forced to look at decisions in real time, get rid of this slow mo bullshit. They also need to follow the clear and obvious mistake rule that they most of the time just ignore. They are doing what they said they wouldn't  do and re reffing the game.

 

That ref won't be getting any more major finals as he's shown he's weak under pressure.

Aye its complete bullshit slow more and freeze frame of when the ball hits the hand, it's pretty much guiding the ref to the wrong conclusion. Show it in in real time from a few angles. That Shouldn't even be going to the monitor.

[morpeth mag]

I agree that we are are going to have bias until AI can referee a game. It will come. Goal line technology works. Offside is close.

Another factor to consider is the size of penalty boxes. They were designed for a bygone era. In today's game a foul on the edge of the box leads to a reward way too valuable. Football should copy hockey and have a smaller box and something akin to a short corner for lesser fouls. Maybe.