Alan Pardew

[Ronaldo]

I do think some posters grossly overrate our players, like. I don't care what anyone says, if I was manager of a club aspiring to be in the top half I wouldn't go near 5 of our starting 11 today.

 

 

[Tooj]

I do think some posters grossly overrate our players, like. I don't care what anyone says, if I was manager of a club aspiring to be in the top half I wouldn't go near 5 of our starting 11 today.

 

 

 

Simpson, Jonas, Shola, Williamson & Perch?

[Mick]

I do think some posters grossly overrate our players, like. I don't care what anyone says, if I was manager of a club aspiring to be in the top half I wouldn't go near 5 of our starting 11 today.

 

 

 

Name them.

[Darth Crooks]

Shola, Jonas, Perch, Williamson, Simpson?

[Parky]

"Where we are" is 3 points off 5th btw.

 

That's one less win than the Everton who everyone say have had a tremendous start to the season.

 

Despite how we're performing, we're not in trouble yet at all.

 

We could be top, but our performances are diabolical. Performances are a true indicator of a player and a team by the way. Everton have had a good start by their standards but the most impressive thing about them isn't their position in the table but their performances which is a marked improvement from say last season and even previous seasons.

 

If we keep playing the way we are, we will not finish in the top 5 or 6. If Everton continue to play like they have been doing, they will have a good chance.

 

No side can continue to play as poorly or as iffy as we are and expect to keep finishing high or keep improving because it won't happen. As it stands last season is looking like a one off and unless we improve our football massively, it will be judged that way come May.

 

One thing I will say, Moyes has shown that an old dog can learn new tricks or that given time (in his case, f***ing lots), a manager can finally get there and get his team there so all is not lost with Pardew. That said, we are only into October, Everton have a long way to go, and Moyes is a far better manager than Pardew anyway.

 

In what ways do you see him as better? Genuine question. Like Pards he used to be quite defensive.

 

When he sees a winning formula, he generally tries to stick with it, same with a player. He's not the best tactically but he sets his sides up to play to their strengths and he has shown over the years he has learned or is willing to change his playing style from the dogs of war type game to a more fluid game we see today, and that has also been shown in the type of players he has went for. All this really on a shoestring budget.

 

He's not a great manager but he is probably the best British manager after Fergie which may not say a lot given the paucity of 'talent' if you like but he's good at what he does, very good and a step or two up from Pardew.

 

I'd imagine Moyes would eventually find the best system/tactics for the players he has at Newcastle and then would stick with it either until it worked or failed and then try again until finally finding that winning formula as is his MO at Everton. In short getting his side and players playing to their strengths.

 

I imagine as an Everton fan this way has been frustrating at times and requires a massive degree of patience but you cannot deny the results.

 

Cheers.

 

I sometimes wonder where they'd be if they hadn't missed out on all that CL cash by falling at the first hurdle. Also of interest is how Harry had no clue how to incorporate Pienaar and went back to two flying wingers.

 

Jelavic is alright but Everton would be one hell of a dangerous packet with one real class forward to deploy week in week out. What I like about Moyes is that although as you say he's a bit dour he's also pragmatic and unconventional when needs arise: Note the re-fashioning of Coleman as a attacking right back/right midfielder when nobody had really heard of him.

 

The way Everton have become a side that can keep the ball from a side that used to tend to go long is a testament to Moyes developing his outlook.

[Ronaldo]

I do think some posters grossly overrate our players, like. I don't care what anyone says, if I was manager of a club aspiring to be in the top half I wouldn't go near 5 of our starting 11 today.

 

 

 

Name them.

 

Didn't have to. See above.

[Mick]

 

 

Didn't have to. See above.

 

I agree, and they didn't all have to play today.  Taylor instead of Williamson would probably have changed the 2-1 to 2-0.  Cisse could have started in place of Shola, Ferguson looks to be better than Jonas on current form, Anita in place of Simpson is a probable upgrade and the same goes for Bigirimana in place of Perch which would have also freed Cabaye up.

[gbandit]

The whole team is too deep and defensive ALL THE TIME. 

to be honest, if you wanted to sum us up in a sentence, there it is

[Darth Crooks]

I agree but you could certainly argue that 2-3 of those are squad players who are not the best in that position.

[Ronaldo]

 

 

Didn't have to. See above.

 

I agree, and they didn't all have to play today.  Taylor instead of Williamson would probably have changed the 2-1 to 2-0.  Cisse could have started in place of Shola, Ferguson looks to be better than Jonas on current form, Anita in place of Simpson is a probable upgrade and the same goes for Bigirimana in place of Perch which would have also freed Cabaye up.

 

I agree with that. But people talk about us like we're capable of things we're simply not with that squad of players.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

"Where we are" is 3 points off 5th btw.

 

That's one less win than the Everton who everyone say have had a tremendous start to the season.

 

Despite how we're performing, we're not in trouble yet at all.

 

We could be top, but our performances are diabolical. Performances are a true indicator of a player and a team by the way. Everton have had a good start by their standards but the most impressive thing about them isn't their position in the table but their performances which is a marked improvement from say last season and even previous seasons.

 

If we keep playing the way we are, we will not finish in the top 5 or 6. If Everton continue to play like they have been doing, they will have a good chance.

 

No side can continue to play as poorly or as iffy as we are and expect to keep finishing high or keep improving because it won't happen. As it stands last season is looking like a one off and unless we improve our football massively, it will be judged that way come May.

 

One thing I will say, Moyes has shown that an old dog can learn new tricks or that given time (in his case, f***ing lots), a manager can finally get there and get his team there so all is not lost with Pardew. That said, we are only into October, Everton have a long way to go, and Moyes is a far better manager than Pardew anyway.

 

In what ways do you see him as better? Genuine question. Like Pards he used to be quite defensive.

 

When he sees a winning formula, he generally tries to stick with it, same with a player. He's not the best tactically but he sets his sides up to play to their strengths and he has shown over the years he has learned or is willing to change his playing style from the dogs of war type game to a more fluid game we see today, and that has also been shown in the type of players he has went for. All this really on a shoestring budget.

 

He's not a great manager but he is probably the best British manager after Fergie which may not say a lot given the paucity of 'talent' if you like but he's good at what he does, very good and a step or two up from Pardew.

 

I'd imagine Moyes would eventually find the best system/tactics for the players he has at Newcastle and then would stick with it either until it worked or failed and then try again until finally finding that winning formula as is his MO at Everton. In short getting his side and players playing to their strengths.

 

I imagine as an Everton fan this way has been frustrating at times and requires a massive degree of patience but you cannot deny the results.

 

Cheers.

 

I sometimes wonder where they'd be if they hadn't missed out on all that CL cash by falling at the first hurdle. Also of interest is how Harry had no clue how to incorporate Pienaar and went back to two flying wingers.

 

Jelavic is alright but Everton would be one hell of a dangerous packet with one real class forward to deploy week in week out. What I like about Moyes is that although as you say he's a bit dour he's also pragmatic and unconventional when needs arise: Note the re-fashioning of Coleman as a attacking right back/right midfielder when nobody had really heard of him.

 

The way Everton have become a side that can keep the ball from a side that used to tend to go long is a testament to Moyes developing his outlook.

 

Aye and funny you mention the real class forward, he actually wanted Ba who would have been that man for them.

 

In many ways, as critical of Pardew as I am or have been, Moyes has shown a manager can develop his own game if you like and improve but its all about the zeitgeist for me and Pardew has at his disposal, despite what Ronaldo may claim, the best squad we've ever had since Sir Bobby's entertainers 2 and even then, a lot of our so-called fringe players like Perch etc. would walk into Sir Bobby's squad.

 

We have a select group of players in Krul, Santon, Colo, Cabaye, Tiote, Ben Arfa, Cisse and Ba in particular who are all either top-class or have the ability to play at such a level and they all play for us. When will we see such a talented side again? We asked the same question when Sir Bobby was leading us to 3rd in the table and the CL and that was a decade ago.

 

We cannot afford to waste talent or windows of opportunity.

 

What pisses me off is that for a period towards the end of last season when we won something like 7 games in succession, we deployed the right system with the right players and tactics and we looked a fucking very good side, one of the best in the division easily with all our top players shining.

 

Contrast to now....

[Tooj]

 

 

Didn't have to. See above.

 

I agree, and they didn't all have to play today.  Taylor instead of Williamson would probably have changed the 2-1 to 2-0.  Cisse could have started in place of Shola, Ferguson looks to be better than Jonas on current form, Anita in place of Simpson is a probable upgrade and the same goes for Bigirimana in place of Perch which would have also freed Cabaye up.

 

I agree with that. But people talk about us like we're capable of things we're simply not with that squad of players.

 

I don't think they do. I just think people's main gripes are with some of the attacking players we've got they're not being utilised to anywhere near their potential. Would you agree with that?

[Ronaldo]

Of course. What I don't agree with is HTT suggesting we're capable of the heights achieved by Bobby's entertainers. We had so much quality all over the pitch then, man.

[Beren]

Do you also believe Villa, Norwich or WBA fielded better XIs than us?

 

Here is Villa's XI in case you forgot: Guzan, Vlaar, Clark, Lichaj, Lowton, Ireland, El Ahmadi, Bannan, Bent, Holman, Weimann

 

I would wager, in some hypothetical world, that Routledge would have made Ronaldo's list if he was still under Pardew's tenure for us.

 

Edit: cba to go into it with you this fine evening Ronny - so my parting shot on this will be that I do think you inflate beyond reasonable proportions the importance of having 2 or 3 mediocre players in our team (who are usually Simpson, Williamson and one other for us), when teams such as Everton and Swansea regularly accommodate and prosper with the likes of Gary Neville, Tony Hibbert, our own discarded Wayne Routledge etc etc - especially when, IMO, our core players are better than theirs - and even if you don't believe that - ours are better than at least Fulham and below - who have also played better football than us for quite a while.

 

Posters on this thread are frustrated at feeling bored watching us play. There's no arguing around how you feel when you watch a team.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Krul is easily one of the best 'keeper's in the league.

 

Colo is easily one of the best centre-back's in the league.

 

Santon has the potential to become of one the best full-back's.

 

Tiote and Cabaye are easily two of the better midfielders in the division.

 

Ben Arfa... is there a more naturally talented footballer in the league than him?

 

Ba is one of the best goalscorers and so too is Cisse.

 

In short we have a core group of players to select that only Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Man City can really better and even then some of our lot would feature in those sides.

 

We are massively under-performing when it comes to team performances and even individually and given our players I certainly expect better and we all should. If anything we underrate our players.

[Ronaldo]

Do you also believe Villa, Norwich or WBA fielded better XIs than us?

 

Here is Villa's XI in case you forgot: Guzan, Vlaar, Clark, Lichaj, Lowton, Ireland, El Ahmadi, Bannan, Bent, Holman, Weimann

 

I would wager, in some hypothetical world, that Routledge would have made Ronaldo's list if he was still under Pardew's tenure for us.

 

Not sure what you mean. I've alway rated Routledge, especially as a squad player and wish we still had him when I see Obertan f***ing up 4-yard passes and Jonas unable to run.

[Mick]

Of course. What I don't agree with is HTT suggesting we're capable of the heights achieved by Bobby's entertainers. We had so much quality all over the pitch then, man.

 

Bobby had to field some really poor players and I remember him being so hard up he had to field Caldwell when he came back from loan and tried to get LuaLua back.

[Ronaldo]

Krul is easily one of the best 'keeper's in the league.

 

Colo is easily one of the best centre-back's in the league.

 

Santon has the potential to become of one the best full-back's.

 

Tiote and Cabaye are easily two of the better midfielders in the division.

 

Ben Arfa... is there a more naturally talented footballer in the league than him?

 

Ba is one of the best goalscorers and so too is Cisse.

 

In short we have a core group of players to select that only Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Man City can really better and even then some of our lot would feature in those sides.

 

We are massively under-performing when it comes to team performances and even individually and given our players I certainly expect better and we all should. If anything we underrate our players.

 

Nobody disputes how good the spine is on paper - although it fails to take into account the compatability of players like Cabaye and Tiote. Our squad players are the problem and have been for a long, long time.

[Ronaldo]

Of course. What I don't agree with is HTT suggesting we're capable of the heights achieved by Bobby's entertainers. We had so much quality all over the pitch then, man.

 

Bobby had to field some really poor players and I remember him being so hard up he had to field Caldwell when he came back from loan and tried to get LuaLua back.

 

Two pretty extreme examples when the team had passes its peak. We had far more quality back then - through the spine and out wide.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Of course. What I don't agree with is HTT suggesting we're capable of the heights achieved by Bobby's entertainers. We had so much quality all over the pitch then, man.

 

Did we really? We had a Coventry flop in Bellamy, an unknown Frenchman, an ageing Shearer and Speed, an injury plagued Dyer and the likes of Dabizas in defence. We did have an extremely consistent and generally top-class Given and Solano but overall we had some top individuals and some serious dross in the squad. They key to our success was that Sir Bobby built a balanced side and got the best out of our better players. Despite a defence with seriously limited players, were so good at either keeping the ball or attacking the opposition, at times it didn't really matter. Bobby knew in Shearer he had a goalscorer and in the flanks the men to deliver the bullets, while in the centre he had Speed and the legs of Dyer and of course further up Bellamy. The biggest thing though was the freedom to express themselves the gave that side and the philosophy he instilled which was to entertain and attack, to go out an beat sides and beat them well when right on top.

 

At the start of that season, while reeling from our European elimination to the mighty Troyes, many were tipping us for a relegation fight especially after losing out to Zenden, Lampard and Jeffers.

 

Like now, that side contained several core top players or players with the potential to become top-players despite lots of dross in and around the overall squad and look what was achieved?!

 

Sir Bobby would have this squad right at the top on the coat-tails of the real challengers. KK too. Pardew to his credit did achieve a top 5 finish but can anyone say with conviction based on our performances this season that we will maintain such a level? We are 10th and I'd say that's where our performances indicate we are as a side.

 

Hopefully we will find that magic formula as we did in our winning streak at the end of last season and stick with it. I doubt it though.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Do you also believe Villa, Norwich or WBA fielded better XIs than us?

 

Here is Villa's XI in case you forgot: Guzan, Vlaar, Clark, Lichaj, Lowton, Ireland, El Ahmadi, Bannan, Bent, Holman, Weimann

 

I would wager, in some hypothetical world, that Routledge would have made Ronaldo's list if he was still under Pardew's tenure for us.

 

Not sure what you mean. I've alway rated Routledge, especially as a squad player and wish we still had him when I see Obertan f***ing up 4-yard passes and Jonas unable to run.

 

Agreed, he would actually be perfect for the 4-4-2 Pardew seems to like and I reckon Pardew would get Perch type performances from him too.

[Ronaldo]

Of course. What I don't agree with is HTT suggesting we're capable of the heights achieved by Bobby's entertainers. We had so much quality all over the pitch then, man.

 

Did we really? We had a Coventry flop in Bellamy, an unknown Frenchman, an ageing Shearer and Speed, an injury plagued Dyer and the likes of Dabizas in defence.

 

 

We had a front 6 back then to rival any in the league back then and you know it. They all complimented each other perfectly, too.

[Ronaldo]

Do you also believe Villa, Norwich or WBA fielded better XIs than us?

 

Here is Villa's XI in case you forgot: Guzan, Vlaar, Clark, Lichaj, Lowton, Ireland, El Ahmadi, Bannan, Bent, Holman, Weimann

 

I would wager, in some hypothetical world, that Routledge would have made Ronaldo's list if he was still under Pardew's tenure for us.

 

Not sure what you mean. I've alway rated Routledge, especially as a squad player and wish we still had him when I see Obertan f***ing up 4-yard passes and Jonas unable to run.

 

Agreed, he would actually be perfect for the 4-4-2 Pardew seems to like and I reckon Pardew would get Perch type performances from him too.

 

Stupid decision to get rid, especially when his replacement is inferior and far more expensive, though he does have time on his side, I guess.

[Tooj]

Quotes like the below are what worries me when it comes to keeping our players.

 

“The first time I met Alan Pardew I asked him ‘How do you want to play? What is the style?’,” Cabaye told the Sunday Sun.

“He said ‘With you, it will change’. I told him I want to have the ball at my feet, I want to pass the ball, pass again.

“It reassured me a lot to hear that the first time I met him. It was my first move since Lille and not to another French club so it was more difficult.

“I was pleased and relieved for him to say that. My mind was calmer because of that. I was reassured and I felt good.”

[Elliottman]

Krul is easily one of the best 'keeper's in the league.

 

Colo is easily one of the best centre-back's in the league.

 

Santon has the potential to become of one the best full-back's.

 

Tiote and Cabaye are easily two of the better midfielders in the division.

 

Ben Arfa... is there a more naturally talented footballer in the league than him?

 

Ba is one of the best goalscorers and so too is Cisse.

 

In short we have a core group of players to select that only Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and Man City can really better and even then some of our lot would feature in those sides.

 

We are massively under-performing when it comes to team performances and even individually and given our players I certainly expect better and we all should. If anything we underrate our players.

 

I'm being picky, but Tiote is not 'easily' one of the best midfielders in the league. Certainly not on the last 12 months worth of performances.