TRon Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Pardew's a terrible tactician. Souness was a terrible tactician, man manager, everything. I don't buy the idea that Pardew is some kind of great man manager. For me he has winged that aspect of managing during his time here. He has managed our players appallingly all season, especially some of the younger ones, and in regards to Europe too. I don't get what this could be based on. A lot of your criticisms of Pardew are valid, but you seem to have just decided he's a 'fraud' or whatever and therefore anything positive to his tenure must either be lucky or just for show. Seems bizarre... I have seen people dislike a manager (and I detested Souness and Allardyce and maybe Dalglish) but this kind of irrational bile-filled hatred is pretty unique. I think what HTT is saying is that Pardew likes to present himself as a savvy, modern tactician. He looks suave, speaks well and scribbles intelligently in his notebook. The only problem is his team play shit football and look completely clueless out on the pitch. It's all very well giving good soundbites and cutting an impressive figure, but the nuts and bolts of actual football coaching and drill work appears to have been left out. In other words, the Emperor has no clothes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Though i have to add that the more I hear his list of excuses, the more I'm turned off by the idea of him staying on. I just don't think he's handling all this pressure well and that's why he's contradicting himself week to week. It's not a good sign but somewhat excusable because many things have adversely impacted our points total. He's not dumb, and that's why I'm willing to give it one more chance. He's not as smart as he thinks he is so he should stop using big words in sentences that don't make sense, and in general he should just not talk as much, but I don't think he's dumb. Maybe he's a better talker than a doer but the way he approaches the game, with stats etc., is something that all the big teams do. You read about Guardiola, Mourinho etc., and you see that they are meticulous in preparition and extremely demanding. Pardew's obviously not them but he's not Kinnear as well who's an old school guy. What I'm basically trying to say is that I'm willing to give Pardew a chance because he has shown that he's open to new ideas and he's not stupid. I would say that he's actually very thin skinned which is why you see him talking about every little problem we have and being so willing to accommodate player's wishes - something I don't think better managers would do - and in general rambling when asked to explain things, and I take that as a sign that he's not good under pressure, but I still don't think he's stupid. In a roundabout way you've basically called him a bullshitter who is out of his depth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,46782.msg1069745.html#msg1069745 This did make me laugh Why? And also, are you trawling my posts on the off chance? You could swap Allardyce for Pardew and it'd be present day. And no, I was looking for polls etc on Allardyce's sacking and that stuck out xx Arguably, all that would show is that I had different views about Allardyce and Pardew, which I don't deny. Also, there were a load of people saying Allardyce should be given more time. Irrelevant and a waste of your time basically. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Pardew's a terrible tactician. Souness was a terrible tactician, man manager, everything. I don't buy the idea that Pardew is some kind of great man manager. For me he has winged that aspect of managing during his time here. He has managed our players appallingly all season, especially some of the younger ones, and in regards to Europe too. I don't get what this could be based on. A lot of your criticisms of Pardew are valid, but you seem to have just decided he's a 'fraud' or whatever and therefore anything positive to his tenure must either be lucky or just for show. Seems bizarre... I have seen people dislike a manager (and I detested Souness and Allardyce and maybe Dalglish) but this kind of irrational bile-filled hatred is pretty unique. I think what HTT is saying is that Pardew likes to present himself as a savvy, modern tactician. He looks suave, speaks well and scribbles intelligently in his notebook. The only problem is his team play shit football and look completely clueless out on the pitch. It's all very well giving good soundbites and cutting an impressive figure, but the nuts and bolts of actual football coaching and drill work appears to have been left out. In other words, the Emperor has no clothes. I see what you and he are saying of course, but just because he's not succeeding at the moment it doesn't mean he's not doing anything. What I mean is that if you believe Pardew isn't completely shite (which at the moment I do) then it's possible that he is actually working hard to turn things around. Obviously it isn't working right now, but still. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I think he's also weak in handling of players. Players like him and we're not hearing reports of bust ups even though we've been shit all season so this is something that he deserves credit for. I'm also scared that if he goes, Ben Arfa will go too because his relationship with Pardew seems to be really good. But anyway, i think he's weak in handling players. He's probably promised that Shola will get chances so now he has to throw him on to give him games. You can read through the lines in what Shola has said this season and he's probably asked Pardew for a chance at one point or another, and because Pardew is weak, he acquiesced and now can't go back on his word. He's probably tried to make Shola feel important and has to commit to his words by giving him games. You can't keep praising someone without letting them play lest you're willing to anger or disappoint them. I think it's the same re:Jonas. After Jonas scored against Chelsea, he mentioned that Jonas knew that he hadnt been playing well so I think they've probably had some conversations and Pardew, being the type of manager that he is, has probably said to Jonas that he'd stick by him etc., and has continued to start him all the time. This fits into the type of manager that I think he is, judging by his words and actions. He's not someone who is strong who commands the respect of all the players. He wants to be liked, that's why he's always joking around and that's why he can't shut up in press conferences - he wants journalists and fans to like him. That's all right when things are going well because most people will lap up whatever he says if we're winning games but this season we have been completely shit yet he's been unable to turn off this 'I want to be liked' feeling which is why so many of the things he says makes no sense and yet he keeps on talking and talking. I still think there is a decent manager in there but we clearly now know his limitations. He's a confidence manager. When the team is going well, he won't get in the way but if the team is stumbling, he's also not going to be able to turn it around quickly. He's also not strong in his handling of players so if we have shit but likeable players in the squad then he's going to annoy the shit out of us. Apologies for the amateur psychology, I'm just calling it like I see it: a guy who dearly wants to be liked, self aware, not stupid but not totally capable of being the manager that we need him to be. But maybe a summer off to reflect on all his mistakes this season will leave him a better position to deal with problems should similar ones arise in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Anyone who says they're open to the idea of him staying can have no complaints when players like Cabaye leave, when we get another kicking in the derby and when the "I told you so's" are raining down on them like. Why the fuck would anyone want to watch another year of dreary negativity? Two has been more than enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,46782.msg1069745.html#msg1069745 This did make me laugh Why? And also, are you trawling my posts on the off chance? You could swap Allardyce for Pardew and it'd be present day. And no, I was looking for polls etc on Allardyce's sacking and that stuck out xx Arguably, all that would show is that I had different views about Allardyce and Pardew, which I don't deny. Also, there were a load of people saying Allardyce should be given more time. Irrelevant and a waste of your time basically. http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr06/2013/4/17/12/anigif_enhanced-buzz-26822-1366217218-11.gif Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Anyone who says they're open to the idea of him staying can have no complaints when players like Cabaye leave, when we get another kicking in the derby and when the "I told you so's" are raining down on them like. Why the fuck would anyone want to watch another year of dreary negativity? Two has been more than enough. Nobody wants any of that, obviously. Some people just think he should be given another chance. And last season might have not been perfect, but dreary is an absolutely insane description of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Ian W, what does working hard have to do with being a fraud? I don't doubt he works hard btw but working hard means jack shit if you are shit at your job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Ian W, what does working hard have to do with being a fraud? I don't doubt he works hard btw but working hard means jack shit if you are shit at your job. What I meant was, he might be doing all the things he says/pretends he's doing. At least to some extent. Admittedly, as I've said, they're not working at the moment, but that doesn't mean he's a fraud when he tries to appear competent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Anyone who says they're open to the idea of him staying can have no complaints when players like Cabaye leave, when we get another kicking in the derby and when the "I told you so's" are raining down on them like. Why the fuck would anyone want to watch another year of dreary negativity? Two has been more than enough. Nobody wants any of that, obviously. Some people just think he should be given another chance. And last season might have not been perfect, but dreary is an absolutely insane description of it. A "chance"? I didn't realise we were running a charity. If a player is shit for a whole season, you don't give them a chance and start them in every game the next on the off chance. We'll have to agree to disagree on last season. Results were good, I'll give you that. That's not hindsight or rewriting history, as you well know because I said it was dross and you defended it all season on the basis of nothing other than "5th!" Now we're 16th and you're still on board. Thoroughly bizarre. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I think he's also weak in handling of players. Players like him and we're not hearing reports of bust ups even though we've been s*** all season so this is something that he deserves credit for. I'm also scared that if he goes, Ben Arfa will go too because his relationship with Pardew seems to be really good. But anyway, i think he's weak in handling players. He's probably promised that Shola will get chances so now he has to throw him on to give him games. You can read through the lines in what Shola has said this season and he's probably asked Pardew for a chance at one point or another, and because Pardew is weak, he acquiesced and now can't go back on his word. He's probably tried to make Shola feel important and has to commit to his words by giving him games. You can't keep praising someone without letting them play lest you're willing to anger or disappoint them. I think it's the same re:Jonas. After Jonas scored against Chelsea, he mentioned that Jonas knew that he hadnt been playing well so I think they've probably had some conversations and Pardew, being the type of manager that he is, has probably said to Jonas that he'd stick by him etc., and has continued to start him all the time. This fits into the type of manager that I think he is, judging by his words and actions. He's not someone who is strong who commands the respect of all the players. He wants to be liked, that's why he's always joking around and that's why he can't shut up in press conferences - he wants journalists and fans to like him. That's all right when things are going well because most people will lap up whatever he says if we're winning games but this season we have been completely s*** yet he's been unable to turn off this 'I want to be liked' feeling which is why so many of the things he says makes no sense and yet he keeps on talking and talking. I still think there is a decent manager in there but we clearly now know his limitations. He's a confidence manager. When the team is going well, he won't get in the way but if the team is stumbling, he's also not going to be able to turn it around quickly. He's also not strong in his handling of players so if we have s*** but likeable players in the squad then he's going to annoy the s*** out of us. Apologies for the amateur psychology, I'm just calling it like I see it: a guy who dearly wants to be liked, self aware, not stupid but not totally capable of being the manager that we need him to be. But maybe a summer off to reflect on all his mistakes this season will leave him a better position to deal with problems should similar ones arise in the future. He does try to be liked by his players - i don't see this as any issue, I think any good manager would do the same. As long as it doesn't get in the way of criticising them when they aren't performing, then it isn't an issue. Cisse's half time video for example. Jonas quite publicly, Ben Arfa's omission from starting line-ups etc is evidence that it doesn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Who the hell still thinks he should be here next season, by the way? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Though i have to add that the more I hear his list of excuses, the more I'm turned off by the idea of him staying on. I just don't think he's handling all this pressure well and that's why he's contradicting himself week to week. It's not a good sign but somewhat excusable because many things have adversely impacted our points total. He's not dumb, and that's why I'm willing to give it one more chance. He's not as smart as he thinks he is so he should stop using big words in sentences that don't make sense, and in general he should just not talk as much, but I don't think he's dumb. Maybe he's a better talker than a doer but the way he approaches the game, with stats etc., is something that all the big teams do. You read about Guardiola, Mourinho etc., and you see that they are meticulous in preparition and extremely demanding. Pardew's obviously not them but he's not Kinnear as well who's an old school guy. What I'm basically trying to say is that I'm willing to give Pardew a chance because he has shown that he's open to new ideas and he's not stupid. I would say that he's actually very thin skinned which is why you see him talking about every little problem we have and being so willing to accommodate player's wishes - something I don't think better managers would do - and in general rambling when asked to explain things, and I take that as a sign that he's not good under pressure, but I still don't think he's stupid. In a roundabout way you've basically called him a bullshitter who is out of his depth. Well yes. I definitely think he's a bullshitter and I think everyone on here knows that he's one and that's because he's not a good bullshitter. He's not good under pressure, he's not good when people are questioning his actions, he's not thick skinned, someone who has conviction and a clear idea. He's someone who's so willing to switch from one position to the next that you know he's a bullshitter. But he's not dumb. Some of the things he says are true and when he talks about the back room methodology, there is a logic and a reason there. Maybe he was just so impressed by all the stuff that Murinho was doing that he's just tried to copy it without truly understanding it. It wouldn't be the first time someone has tried to use stats and analysts without truly understanding them. That's possible. I think he's in-between. He's clearly not some football savant but he's also not Kinnear. I'm just giving him some benefit of the doubt because I don't think he's dumb. He's just weak. His weakness has cost us this season. But next season he might not be so weak when he reflects on his mistakes this season. If he's more ruthless next season, we'll be much better off for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Who the hell still thinks he should be here next season, by the way? I wouldn't sack him if we stay up. I might be the only one, but I don't think I am. At the same time, I've also said I wouldn't shed a tear if he was sacked provided we have a good replacement lined up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Ian W, what does working hard have to do with being a fraud? I don't doubt he works hard btw but working hard means jack s*** if you are s*** at your job. What I meant was, he might be doing all the things he says/pretends he's doing. At least to some extent. Admittedly, as I've said, they're not working at the moment, but that doesn't mean he's a fraud when he tries to appear competent. He is basically presenting himself as something he really isn't. He needs to go into the training ground and rip down all those stupid post-it quotes, throw away the books on his shelf, put a stop to the African/French days in the canteen and stop pretending to be some kind of professor of football/man management/motivation. He's a fucking cockney spiv man The players will and probably already are seeing through him, as are the fans. Well, some of us anyway.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Anyone who says they're open to the idea of him staying can have no complaints when players like Cabaye leave, when we get another kicking in the derby and when the "I told you so's" are raining down on them like. Why the fuck would anyone want to watch another year of dreary negativity? Two has been more than enough. Nobody wants any of that, obviously. Some people just think he should be given another chance. And last season might have not been perfect, but dreary is an absolutely insane description of it. A "chance"? I didn't realise we were running a charity. If a player is shit for a whole season, you don't give them a chance and start them in every game the next on the off chance. We'll have to agree to disagree on last season. Results were good, I'll give you that. That's not hindsight or rewriting history, as you well know because I said it was dross and you defended it all season on the basis of nothing other than "5th!" Now we're 16th and you're still on board. Thoroughly bizarre. You don't have to be a charity to give someone a chance. If a player has a poor season you don't necessarily sell him immediately. I'm not saying last season was brilliant football, I'm just saying it wasn't 'dreary'. We achieved a lot and had a load of exciting moments. I don't know whether you actually can't understand this position or you just choose to ignore it. Surely logically if I rated Pardew for what he did last season I would logically think he was capable of more than he's done this season. So it's not a contradiction at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superior Acuña Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Anyone who says they're open to the idea of him staying can have no complaints when players like Cabaye leave, when we get another kicking in the derby and when the "I told you so's" are raining down on them like. Why the f*** would anyone want to watch another year of dreary negativity? Two has been more than enough. Nobody wants any of that, obviously. Some people just think he should be given another chance. And last season might have not been perfect, but dreary is an absolutely insane description of it. Anyone who says they're open to the idea of him staying can have no complaints when players like Cabaye leave, when we get another kicking in the derby and when the "I told you so's" are raining down on them like. Why the f*** would anyone want to watch another year of dreary negativity? Two has been more than enough. Surely last season was one of the most fun in years! I'm turning on Pardew in spite of last season, not in any way because of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 I think he's also weak in handling of players. Players like him and we're not hearing reports of bust ups even though we've been s*** all season so this is something that he deserves credit for. I'm also scared that if he goes, Ben Arfa will go too because his relationship with Pardew seems to be really good. But anyway, i think he's weak in handling players. He's probably promised that Shola will get chances so now he has to throw him on to give him games. You can read through the lines in what Shola has said this season and he's probably asked Pardew for a chance at one point or another, and because Pardew is weak, he acquiesced and now can't go back on his word. He's probably tried to make Shola feel important and has to commit to his words by giving him games. You can't keep praising someone without letting them play lest you're willing to anger or disappoint them. I think it's the same re:Jonas. After Jonas scored against Chelsea, he mentioned that Jonas knew that he hadnt been playing well so I think they've probably had some conversations and Pardew, being the type of manager that he is, has probably said to Jonas that he'd stick by him etc., and has continued to start him all the time. This fits into the type of manager that I think he is, judging by his words and actions. He's not someone who is strong who commands the respect of all the players. He wants to be liked, that's why he's always joking around and that's why he can't shut up in press conferences - he wants journalists and fans to like him. That's all right when things are going well because most people will lap up whatever he says if we're winning games but this season we have been completely s*** yet he's been unable to turn off this 'I want to be liked' feeling which is why so many of the things he says makes no sense and yet he keeps on talking and talking. I still think there is a decent manager in there but we clearly now know his limitations. He's a confidence manager. When the team is going well, he won't get in the way but if the team is stumbling, he's also not going to be able to turn it around quickly. He's also not strong in his handling of players so if we have s*** but likeable players in the squad then he's going to annoy the s*** out of us. Apologies for the amateur psychology, I'm just calling it like I see it: a guy who dearly wants to be liked, self aware, not stupid but not totally capable of being the manager that we need him to be. But maybe a summer off to reflect on all his mistakes this season will leave him a better position to deal with problems should similar ones arise in the future. He does try to be liked by his players - i don't see this as any issue, I think any good manager would do the same. As long as it doesn't get in the way of criticising them when they aren't performing, then it isn't an issue. Cisse's half time video for example. Jonas quite publicly, Ben Arfa's omission from starting line-ups etc is evidence that it doesn't. I don't think Ferguson or Mourinho or Benitez want to be liked by their players. They want to win and they want their players to want to win as much as they do. The players who like and respect them are the players who want to win, and the players who don't are sold. That's not Pardew. He's not that strong. I think he wants to be liked as much as he wants to win and sometimes the things he does costs us because he's afraid of being the bad guy. You can't be afraid of being the bad guy when you're the manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 You've got a point there Pip. He seems to be liked by the players, whether he compromises anything to achieve that is unknown, but it's certainly possible. I definitely disagreed strongly with how he treated Cisse v Ba for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 That Simon Bird article is thoroughly depressing. Many will completely buy it too. The defence? Journalist cliché bingo and plausible deniability. - "Stability" - as though that ever, in and of itself, helped any club - "Manager of the year" - a largely meaningless accolade - "Ruling himself out of the England job 12 months ago" - meaningless attribute for a manager - Last season - a commendable finish for the club, but not down to Pardew exclusively or even significantly* but most importantly he didn't demonstrate any attributes which will help us progress going forwards - which is the only factor which matters when you're looking at whether to keep him for next season * - argument done to death/won't revisit! - The David Moyes example - just plain irrelevant tripe He has no outstanding managerial attributes, and you'd struggle to argue he has even average attributes in important areas. There is no good reason to keep him or be patient with him based on the evidence available IMO. You may not have faith in who Ashley would appoint next, but I'd rather gamble on an unknown than slowly circle the drain as we will continue with our known quantity of Pardew. [Could you even imagine what would happen if he we were ever to reach a cup final (our only vaguely realistic hope of winning something)? Could you imagine how conservatively he'd play it? How much he'd concentrate on the opposition in advance of the final? How little he'd give them to worry about us? Cisse would be revising the attacking threat of their centre-backs for four out of the five days leading up to the final ] He's not even close to being good enough to match the ambitions of the club,... but then again maybe he does meet the ambitions of the decision-makers and certain fans who will endure and pay for anything they are served up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcmk Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 [Could you even imagine what would happen if he we were ever to reach a cup final (our only vaguely realistic hope of winning something)? Could you imagine how conservatively he'd play it? How much he'd concentrate on the opposition in advance of the final? How little he'd give them to worry about us? Cisse would be revising the attacking threat of their centre-backs for four out of the five days leading up to the final ] Maybe something like this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/4756045.stm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 [Could you even imagine what would happen if he we were ever to reach a cup final (our only vaguely realistic hope of winning something)? Could you imagine how conservatively he'd play it? How much he'd concentrate on the opposition in advance of the final? How little he'd give them to worry about us? Cisse would be revising the attacking threat of their centre-backs for four out of the five days leading up to the final ] Maybe something like this? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/fa_cup/4756045.stm Aye! I was going to mention this the other day when I heard a Pardew interview. Think the match properly scarred him Explains so much Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 - Last season - a commendable finish for the club, but not down to Pardew exclusively or even significantly* * - argument done to death/won't revisit! I know you're not going to revisit this argument, but I'm quoting it anyway. Bad season? Completely the manager's fault. Good season? Not exclusively or even significantly the manager's doing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 - Last season - a commendable finish for the club, but not down to Pardew exclusively or even significantly* * - argument done to death/won't revisit! I know you're not going to revisit this argument, but I'm quoting it anyway. Bad season? Completely the manager's fault. Good season? Not exclusively or even significantly the manager's doing. Aye, I'd say it's the sign of a pretty poor manager if that's the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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