Guest firetotheworks Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The only that you'd have a point there, would be if that opening run of games was difficult. It wasn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The only that you'd have a point there, would be if that opening run of games was difficult. It wasn't. It clearly was for us.We're shit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 West Ham Morecambe Fulham Villa Hull Leeds Everton Cardiff 8 games for Pardew to be judged on. Could be gone by Halloween if it goes badly, and would have NO excuses about the quality of opposition. W4 D1 L1 Liverpool Mackems Man City Chelsea Tottenham .. is a harsh run that could do for him. 5 points would be a good return. Given that we're not judging him on the Man City game surely it's not fair to judge against any other good sides either? Just the sh*t and average ones. Everyone pretty much accepted our season started after the Man City game. He wasn't going to be sacked off that result or anything. I said he has 8 games after it that will tell us if we're relegation bait or not. A decent haul against West Ham, Fulham, Villa, Hull, Everton & Cardiff would suggest we're not going to be struggling in relegation places all season. Which would be enough to keep Pardew in his job. For better or worse. However, with that draw in the league cup we now have 5 games following that are all REALLY difficult. Whatever has happened in the 8 preceding games, if he were to lose 5 on the bounce, there would be hell on, irrespective of the opponents, and the #Pardewout might get their wish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The only that you'd have a point there, would be if that opening run of games was difficult. It wasn't. It clearly was for us. We're s***. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The only that you'd have a point there, would be if that opening run of games was difficult. It wasn't. He only lost the games that were difficult. It was hardly a piece of piss start on the whole either. Playing 6 out of the 8 teams that topped the table and only 3 of the eventual bottom 9? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Oh, so last season wasn't completely shit? I could have done with you and your stats then Happy Face, to cheer me up. Where were you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 For 10 games he was doing what he'd been tasked with, in terms of results. Only losing to Chelsea and Man U. this is why most find a purely stats-based approach so frustrating man 1. with eyes you could see that the performances during the 5th season did not often warrant the results we were getting and could not be sustained 2. we continued with the same tactics and performances and started the season in ok fashion but then it caught up with us it was always going to catch up with us, the performances tell you that, not the numbers as for this season it's hard to say how it will go but you'd have to lean towards the negative rather than positive in the league man city - diabolical west ham - poor fulham - above average considering the way we finished villa - very good against an accommodating team hull - poor EDIT: correct quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The only that you'd have a point there, would be if that opening run of games was difficult. It wasn't. He only lost the games that were difficult. It was hardly a piece of p*ss start on the whole either. Playing 6 out of the 8 teams that topped the table and only 2 of the eventual bottom 9? You could look at it that way, but I wouldn't. In that opening 10 games we still drew with Villa at home, Reading and Sunderland away, made massively hard work for ourselves against Norwich and were lucky as anything against West Brom. FWIW, at that point I overlooked how bad we were because it was the start of the season, but we still should have beaten Villa, Reading and Sunderland if we're going purely on results. I thought we would get better, but we got worse. Us getting worse doesn't mean that the initial results were acceptable, it just highlights how bad that run of defeats was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 this is why most find a purely stats-based approach so frustrating man 1. with eyes you could see that the performances during the 5th season did not often warrant the results we were getting and could not be sustained 2. we continued with the same tactics and performances and started the season in ok fashion but then it caught up with us it was always going to catch up with us, the performances tell you that, not the numbers as for this season it's hard to say how it will go but you'd have to lean towards the negative rather than positive in the league man city - diabolical west ham - poor fulham - above average considering the way we finished villa - very good against an accommodating team hull - poor Happy face is not including the Man City game for Pardew which is odd. We lost the game last season and I expected nothing from the game, I would have settled for at least seeing something which suggested an improvement. I have seen nothing yet to get overly excited about because you could probably find 20 minutes from a game last season to match the last 20 against Fulham and you could find a game to match the Villa win. We might do better this season than we did last season and we should. Will it will be enough to justify keeping Pardew, I doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 It's nothing to do with stats. 10 games in we were mid table. Had only lost to Man U and Chelsea. Had otherwise got maximum points from our home games except Villa, being a disappointing draw. ..and hadn't otherwise lost on the road. Taking points at Liverpool, Everton (top 6), Sunderland (derby) and Reading (where you'd hope for more). On the whole that constitutes a good start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 I don't think you'll find anyone willing to argue that last season wasn't largely terrible, from start to finish. Seems pointless to be going through it again, but I suppose we did win last night. Happy face claimed "When we were in the top half, before the awful pre Christmas run? If you won't accept top half standard then he's got no hope." Is it not acceptable that people should educate him? He seems a pretty well educated bloke, to be honest. I'm sure he's well aware of our results and performances from last season, but he may have seen them in a slightly less negative light. I don't know, he'll manage, I think. Top half is the target the club have set Pardew. http://www.statto.com/football/img/progress/ACBAOEALNn For 10 games he was doing what he'd been tasked with, in terms of results. Only losing to Chelsea and Man U. Then it went to shit for 13 games I thought we played canny shit football as we finished 5th. But in no hate filled anti-pardew mind could it ever be construed as worthy of the sack. Top half wasn't the target last season. Top 8 was. I see we've already lowered our expectations for this season as well. Top 10 will do apparently, although just about every team in the division bar about 3 will be aiming for the same thing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 I don't think you'll find anyone willing to argue that last season wasn't largely terrible, from start to finish. Seems pointless to be going through it again, but I suppose we did win last night. Happy face claimed "When we were in the top half, before the awful pre Christmas run? If you won't accept top half standard then he's got no hope." Is it not acceptable that people should educate him? He seems a pretty well educated bloke, to be honest. I'm sure he's well aware of our results and performances from last season, but he may have seen them in a slightly less negative light. I don't know, he'll manage, I think. Top half is the target the club have set Pardew. http://www.statto.com/football/img/progress/ACBAOEALNn For 10 games he was doing what he'd been tasked with, in terms of results. Only losing to Chelsea and Man U. Then it went to shit for 13 games I thought we played canny shit football as we finished 5th. But in no hate filled anti-pardew mind could it ever be construed as worthy of the sack. The target was definitely top eight last season, fwiw: Last season knocked the club back a little and resulted in the club revising its expectations for this season. The club's intention last season was to finish in the top eight. Because we finished lower, the club re-evaluated and we want to finish in the top ten this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Top 8 versus top 10 is basically a matter of luck though really. As people have said, it's how you end up there that matters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Top 8 versus top 10 is basically a matter of luck though really. As people have said, it's how you end up there that matters. Happy Face's point was that Pardew was doing "what he was tasked with" for 10 games, when in reality it was 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Top 8 versus top 10 is basically a matter of luck though really. As people have said, it's how you end up there that matters. Yet, we were never there. Even in the period short period when Happy Face has claimed we were within the club's target for itself. We were never there from the second week onwards. That's not luck at all, that's being not good enough and then getting worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 It's nothing to do with stats. it's everything to do with stats, as stated points and stats disguised awful performances for a long time...some people, even amidst the winning, were able to see the likely direction things would take, others chose to focus solely on numbers and think everything was fine last season - it seemed to come as a shock to them when things got as bad as they did numbers tell us this season is going OK at the moment, and i suppose it is, performances tell us there's as much to be worried about as there is to be happy about oh and as regards meeting his target of 10th, he managed it for 25% of the season then basically...good stats Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 The top 10 thing's a load of bullshit anyway. What happens if we finish 13th? Is Ashley going to swing the axe? No, he'll say get in...another year of Premier tv money, goody goody gumdrops. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Top 8 versus top 10 is basically a matter of luck though really. As people have said, it's how you end up there that matters. Yet, we were never there. Even in the period short period when Happy Face has claimed we were within the club's target for itself. We were never there from the second week onwards. That's not luck at all, that's being not good enough and then getting worse. Fair enough, all I mean was that (for example) we nearly went down but we could have easily also finished 10th. Same must apply to other league position targets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 Top 8 versus top 10 is basically a matter of luck though really. As people have said, it's how you end up there that matters. Yet, we were never there. Even in the period short period when Happy Face has claimed we were within the club's target for itself. We were never there from the second week onwards. That's not luck at all, that's being not good enough and then getting worse. Fair enough, all I mean was that (for example) we nearly went down but we could have easily also finished 10th. Same must apply to other league position targets. I generally believe that you end up where you deserve. Last season was very tight down the bottom, which obviously meant that we could have finished higher. The point is that we didn't, and rightly so. We finished exactly where our performances deserved, imo. The only time that I've ever been surprised where we've finished (either thinking that it was too high or too low) was when Roeder got us to 7th after Souness was sacked. We were galvanised and almost all of the other teams around us feel apart, Bolton especially. We've deserved everything that we've got , every other season that I've been a fan, imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 It's nothing to do with stats. it's everything to do with stats, as stated points and stats disguised awful performances for a long time...some people, even amidst the winning, were able to see the likely direction things would take, others chose to focus solely on numbers and think everything was fine last season - it seemed to come as a shock to them when things got as bad as they did numbers tell us this season is going OK at the moment, and i suppose it is, performances tell us there's as much to be worried about as there is to be happy about oh and as regards meeting his target of 10th, he managed it for 25% of the season then basically...good stats So now league position is a "meaningless stat" the same as long balls hit and shots from outside the box? See this thread i started over on TT... http://www.toontastic.net/board/topic/31769-whos-had-the-easiest-start/ That was October 2011. It was clear to me our position was not representative of the quality of our football. We'd had an incredibly easy start and were remarkably injury free. In the face of much opposition I argued that pardew's brand of football was not going to sustain us. But as the season went on and on and we maintained that position you had to accept that irrespective of performances, we were consistently winning points enough to stay up there. The league is not a meaningless stat. It's the measure of how we compare with other teams. As bad as you think you are, the league will tell you if other teams are worse. It was no shock to me that we dropped down the league. What was a shock was the outrage it caused amongst people had been watching us play all that time. I am no Pardew fan. I wasn't then. Perhaps my consistently low expectations, irrespective of league position is what stops me going apoplectic when we drop to 16th. Targets are set to stretch us. If they say they want top 8, top half would be fine. If they say top half, just below would be fine. In reality, we all know that the ONLY expectation is that we survive. The entire club, transfer policy, executive & management structure is set up for it. There is no ambition to push on and claim a few extra places for relatively little reward, compared to the TV money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 I get the feeling that Happy Face is currently trying to think of a way to defend those opening matches in a new way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 FFS not this shit again, fact is we played awful football wherever we ended up. For this season i hope it's better and tbf has been much better. Trying to bring stats and other assorted turd in, to try to say last season wasn't as bad as everyone thinks is fucking mental. We played shit, end of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 FFS not this shit again, fact is we played awful football wherever we ended up. For this season i hope it's better and tbf has been much better. Trying to bring stats and other assorted turd in, to try to say last season wasn't as bad as everyone thinks is fucking mental. We played shit, end of. Not necessarily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 i don't know why you're putting quote marks around "meaningless stat" as it implies i said it, which i didn't HF as you well know and it appears you agree with everything else i've as well HF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted September 26, 2013 Share Posted September 26, 2013 i don't know why you're putting quote marks around "meaningless stat" as it implies i said it, which i didn't HF as you well know and it appears you agree with everything else i've as well HF It implies the general view of "I don't need stats to tell me how we've played". Which is absolutely true. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts