Still Not Worthy Of A Thread

[SEMTEX]

How the fuck did he do that anyway

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

You're a wizard, Wayne.

[Toondave]

Clubs aren't to blame here. Putting any kind of limit on foreigners or encouraging clubs to choose English players artificially will only decrease the quality of the premier league. Nobody wins here except the already mediocre English  players - the team will not improve in quality.

 

If the English players are good enough then they will be starring in top premier league teams, and they do, it's just there aren't enough. So it's on the FA to improve grass roots level, not the clubs.

 

That's just not true though is it, realistically? If you're a youth player on Chelsea's books, you've got to be one of the world's greatest young players to get so much as a place on the bench in the League Cup. By the time you're 21, you've simply not played enough first team football to keep up with your peers in other countries who've been playing senior football for years.

 

 

Well it is true, but mainly because of my ambiguous sentence structure 

 

I see your point though but if they are truly good then it is in the clubs best interest, and also the players naturally, to be playing regular first team football. Be this a loan or a transfer to a lower club.

 

There's no agenda against English players. If we have a whole generation of English players who are inferior to, let's say, Spanish players then why should the English players get priority at club level? The English players will have to settle for playing further down the table(s). By forcing clubs to play English players then you aren't increasing the quality of English produce, just reducing the quality of the premiership.

 

The problem is at the root of it.

[Wullie]

Clubs aren't to blame here. Putting any kind of limit on foreigners or encouraging clubs to choose English players artificially will only decrease the quality of the premier league. Nobody wins here except the already mediocre English  players - the team will not improve in quality.

 

If the English players are good enough then they will be starring in top premier league teams, and they do, it's just there aren't enough. So it's on the FA to improve grass roots level, not the clubs.

 

That's just not true though is it, realistically? If you're a youth player on Chelsea's books, you've got to be one of the world's greatest young players to get so much as a place on the bench in the League Cup. By the time you're 21, you've simply not played enough first team football to keep up with your peers in other countries who've been playing senior football for years.

 

 

Well it is true, but mainly because of my ambiguous sentence structure 

 

I see your point though but if they are truly good then it is in the clubs best interest, and also the players naturally, to be playing regular first team football. Be this a loan or a transfer to a lower club.

 

There's no agenda against English players. If we have a whole generation of English players who are inferior to, let's say, Spanish players then why should the English players get priority at club level? The English players will have to settle for playing further down the table(s). By forcing clubs to play English players then you aren't increasing the quality of English produce, just reducing the quality of the premiership.

 

The problem is at the root of it.

 

Aye you knew what I meant.

 

I disagree fundamentally with your statement in bold because, simply put, players improve by playing senior football. That's inarguable, and they're not getting those opportunities to develop because of how easy and cheap it is to buy a player from Europe. The money in the game has made it impossible to give those opportunities so freely.

 

Easy example off the top of my head - Paul Dummett. Vastly improved in a short time by playing senior football, highly rated left back at an age where he needs to play to develop comes back last January after impressing up north and what do we do? Buy Haidara. Why? Because despite being over a year younger than Dummett, Haidara has three years top flight experience in a major European league, playing against other professional footballers and in big stadiums, as opposed to playing against kids and amateurs in front of three men and their dogs at Kingston Park, which was what Dummett had been doing for years before he went to Scotland.

[Wullie]

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

[LoveItIfWeBeatU]

http://www.nufc.com/

 

Squad list confirmed

 

From the Premier League website, Wednesday:

 

Following the closure of the summer transfer window on 2 September, the clubs had a deadline of Wednesday afternoon to submit their squad of up to 25 players which contains no more than 17 players who do not fulfil the Home Grown Player criteria.

 

The rest of the squad must be Home Grown - A Home Grown player will be defined as one who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with any club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the season during which he turns 21).

 

U21 players are eligible over and above the limit of 25 players per squad.

 

Changes to the squad list can only be made during the transfer window, which opens again on 1 January 2014.

 

Home grown (9): Sh.Ameobi, Dummett, Elliot, Gosling, Krul, Tavernier, R.Taylor, S.Taylor, Williamson.

 

Non home grown (15): Anita, Ben Arfa, Cabaye, Cisse, Coloccini, Debuchy, Gouffran, Gutierrez, Marveaux, Obertan, Remy, Santon, Sissoko, Tiote, Yanga-Mbiwa.

 

Under-21 (42): Aarons, Abeid, Aird, Alnwick, Sa.Ameobi, Armstrong, Atkinson, Barlaser, Bigirimana, Booth, Cameron, Campbell, Cobain, Drennan, Gillesphey, Gilliead, Good, Haidara, Hall, Heardman, Kemen, Kerridge, Laidler,

Logan, Mbabu, McKinnon, Miele, Mitchell, Morgan, Olley, Pearson, Quinn, Richardson, Roberts, Satka, Smith,

Sterry, Storey, Streete, Vuckic, Williams, Woodman.

 

There's no place in any squad for Shane Ferguson, Conor Newton or Romain Amalfitano, while Ryan Taylor is named despite being ruled out for the season through injury.

[Belfast Boy]

So Ferguson has been binned? But we have only named 24?

[Wullie]

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So fuck that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit shite until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

[LoveItIfWeBeatU]

So Ferguson has been binned? But we have only named 24?

 

Shane Ferguson, Conor Newton, Romain Amalfitano and Mehdi Abeid are all on season long loans. I don't know why Abeid is listed in the squad.

[jdckelly]

So Ferguson has been binned? But we have only named 24?

 

Shane Ferguson, Conor Newton, Romain Amalfitano and Mehdi Abeid are all on season long loans. I don't know why Abeid is listed in the squad.

the u21 list is unlimited so why the hell not

[Wullie]

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if fuck all to with the lack of English talent. We are shit, we were shit before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

[Guest]

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

I pointed to it in the England thread, but what's stopping English players going to France, Spain, Portugal, etc. and getting football over there?

[Jack Flash]

It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place.

 

We were awful before the influx of foreign players

 

Really disagree with these 2 bits, bro, but I can't be bothered to elaborate 

[Mole_Toonfan]

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

I pointed to it in the England thread, but what's stopping English players going to France, Spain, Portugal, etc. and getting football over there?

 

Mentality.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Football coach shortage paints bleak picture for England's future

• Only 2,769 English coaches hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges

• Spain has 23,995, Italy 29,420 and Germany 34,790

 

 

This, right here is the problem.

 

Of course it is, when you have people like Southgate and Pearce coaching your kids its obviously a problem.

 

But i wouldn't say its the only problem, English football is rotten to the core and there really isn't one big problem you can pin point there is many.

 

Even if the FA have suddenly realised what the issues are and fix them asap it will take a very long time to see any results.

 

10 years minimum i'd say.

 

 

[Jack Flash]

 

It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place.

 

We were awful before the influx of foreign players

 

Really disagree with these 2 bits, bro, but I can't be bothered to elaborate 

 

When have England had a winning national team? 66 aside? We have always been around the same level. Please feel free to point this side out tough

 

Cheers for disagreeing and not giving and reasons why not

 

Just because we haven't won anything doesn't mean our players were "awful" There's so much more to winning a World Cup than just talent.

 

I could name 20 players off the top of my head who were genuinely, undeniably brilliant and were around before "the foreign influx".

[Wullie]

 

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

Are there? Care to name any of them?  It's impossible to say that with any certainty at all, the better players make it, the lesser players don't. When the league was predominantly English we were equally as shit as we are now .

 

I'm not particularly au fait with the youth systems of other teams but we've got several players who've been doing nothing but playing reserve football for five years and now look ill equipped to deal with the Premier League.

[LucaAltieri]

 

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

Are there? Care to name any of them?  It's impossible to say that with any certainty at all, the better players make it, the lesser players don't. When the league was predominantly English we were equally as shit as we are now .

 

I'm not particularly au fait with the youth systems of other teams but we've got several players who've been doing nothing but playing reserve football for five years and now look ill equipped to deal with the Premier League.

 

Hate to agree with Wullie, but he's right here.

 

It's not about having a Zidane sitting on the bench somewhere, it's about giving players the games they need to get up to standard. Being patient with them instead of buying a cheap import who is already ready.

[LucaAltieri]

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

Are there? Care to name any of them?  It's impossible to say that with any certainty at all, the better players make it, the lesser players don't. When the league was predominantly English we were equally as s*** as we are now .

 

I'm not particularly au fait with the youth systems of other teams but we've got several players who've been doing nothing but playing reserve football for five years and now look ill equipped to deal with the Premier League.

 

Hate to agree with Wullie, but he's right here.

 

It's not about having a Zidane sitting on the bench somewhere, it's about giving players the games they need to get up to standard. Being patient with them instead of buying a cheap import who is already ready.

 

And you're sure if they get that game time they will be up to that standard? I really don't think that happens as much as you think it does. I hate to repeat myself but the coaches who see

them every day, wouldn't recognise the talent, that they would make the first team? It's cheaper after all. The best players get fasttracked. Wenger gets hammered for playing Wilshire too much, to the detriment of England. Rooney was banging in goals at 17.

 

Remember Josh Mcechran? Everyone was crying out for him to play, he was the next big thing, went to boro and looked average at best.

 

Not every kid is going to turn good, but neither is every import. It just seems much more acceptable to give a foreigner a season to adjust than it is to give a kid a season to work his way into a team.

 

There's no good argument for not giving the young English players a chance other than needing results NOW. TODAY.

 

You can't say for sure that you're fielding a Dan Gosling or Wilshire until you give them the games.

 

Players typically do get better the more you play them. Walcott, Lennon, Bale, Henderson... they were below par, then average, now they're turning into very good players. It takes time and desire to bring the kids along.

[Wullie]

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

Are there? Care to name any of them?  It's impossible to say that with any certainty at all, the better players make it, the lesser players don't. When the league was predominantly English we were equally as s*** as we are now .

 

I'm not particularly au fait with the youth systems of other teams but we've got several players who've been doing nothing but playing reserve football for five years and now look ill equipped to deal with the Premier League.

 

Hate to agree with Wullie, but he's right here.

 

It's not about having a Zidane sitting on the bench somewhere, it's about giving players the games they need to get up to standard. Being patient with them instead of buying a cheap import who is already ready.

 

And you're sure if they get that game time they will be up to that standard?

 

No. That's the point. Football's partly a game of risk and Premier League clubs don't want to take it when they've got enough money to go abroad and get someone with more experience.

 

It's not even about English vs foreign really - coming to our academy was the worst thing Kadar and Vuckic ever did. They'd have been far better off staying in their native countries or the Bundesliga and playing games at 18, instead of getting to 21 with half a dozen League Cup appearances between them.

[Wullie]

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it's anything to do with the influx of foreigners at all, there is simply a dearth of English talent. We employ the smallest number of coaches compared to your Spain's and your Germany's, and the lack of English players is symptomatic of coaching in this country.

 

If an English player was good enough, he'd be starting. If he's better than his foreign counterpart he will be bought. Wilshire has done okay, Carroll?  It's not as if the next Gascoigne is stuck on a bench somewhere because Johnny Foreigner is taking his place. If anything I'm glad out players are playing alongside the best foreign talent.

 

The problem lies in infrastructure and outdated coaching methods, not recruitment

 

How's he meant to be "good enough" at 17 man, and better than Player X who's 26 and been playing in Ligue 1 regularly for 8 years and is available for £3m? Howay.

 

That's completely hypothetical. 1) and academy player would be cheaper and negate the need to but a replacement. 2) good enough is old enough it's really that simple. We were awful before the influx of foreign players, we are exactly the same now. It's the coaching not the foreigners.

 

Gerard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? Also it's entirely unfair to compare a 26 year old player with a 17 year old kid regardless of nationality.

 

So f*** that Stephen Gerrard was in the Liverpool team when he was 18? How is one example proof of anything? You mention Carroll - the only reason that bloke is anywhere today is because we went down and he had the opportunity to develop by playing first team football. If we'd stayed up, he certainly wouldn't have got a look in - he barely even got one in the first half of the Championship season because he looked a bit s**** until a few months in and we brought in Marlon Harewood to play instead. If we'd stayed up, we'd have bought someone else and he would have drifted down the leagues, and maybe worked his way back up like Danny Graham did when he couldn't get a kick at Middlesbrough.

 

I'm not really sure what to say if you think football doesn't help footballers develop. The game is littered with players who've played 300 games before they're any good at all. Didier Drogba was rattling around in Ligue 2 until he was about 24 - by your logic, he should have been the same Drogba at 16 as he would go on to be at 25 when Marseille bought him.

 

Literally not once said that, your cherry picking what you want to hear to support your own argument. I used one example to prove the point that "good enough is old enough".  You've completely and utterly missed the point and pretty much everything you've set out in your response, I didn't say. I never once said playing football doesn't help you, I never once suggested that a player would be the same at 16 as he was at 25, though he was a slightly late developer.

 

I contended that it is wholly incorrect to suggest that our importing of foreign talent if f*** all to with the lack of English talent. We are s***, we were s*** before, it means nothing. People must think there is the English Zidane sitting on a bench somewhere but he can't get a game because a 2m player from Porto is ahead of him.

 

You're using examples like Zidane to create a ridiculous hyperbole. Of course there are young English players at every club who can't get a game because it's easier, cheaper and less risky to buy a foreign ready-made replacement.

 

Are there? Care to name any of them?  It's impossible to say that with any certainty at all, the better players make it, the lesser players don't. When the league was predominantly English we were equally as s*** as we are now .

 

I'm not particularly au fait with the youth systems of other teams but we've got several players who've been doing nothing but playing reserve football for five years and now look ill equipped to deal with the Premier League.

 

Hate to agree with Wullie, but he's right here.

 

It's not about having a Zidane sitting on the bench somewhere, it's about giving players the games they need to get up to standard. Being patient with them instead of buying a cheap import who is already ready.

 

And you're sure if they get that game time they will be up to that standard?

 

No. That's the point. Football's partly a game of risk and Premier League clubs don't want to take it when they've got enough money to go abroad and get someone with more experience.

 

It's not even about English vs foreign really - coming to our academy was the worst thing Kadar and Vuckic ever did. They'd have been far better off staying in their native countries or the Bundesliga and playing games at 18, instead of getting to 21 with half a dozen League Cup appearances between them.

 

I can agree on that. Our academy's need a change as well, you are right. They would have been far better off away from here. There are some very well run academies though, Southampton seems to constantly produce.

 

I feel like ours is particularly bad tbh

 

Based purely on what it has produced, ours is fucking dross.

 

Southampton's has flourished whilst they've been out of the top flight, destitute and able to give Bale, Walcott, Ox regular games at 16 years old. Give them five years in the Premier League and you'll see their flow has suddenly dried up very quickly as their kids stagnate playing against other kids for an extra two or three years before even being considered for selection.

[Toondave]

There are two different scenarios of foreigners here. One is that English youngsters are being replaced by foreign youngsters, the other is that English youngsters are being replaced by foreign players (at peak age for example).

 

The first is very simple. They simply are not good enough and changes are needed at grass roots level. Forcing clubs to play them will just reduce the quality of the league. They should be sold to, or loaned to, clubs further down the ladder to gain first team experience.

 

The other is common sense really. Mature players are better than young players on the whole. They still require first team experience, but no club will play any youngster over a quality player at peak age, with some special exceptions. Again should be loaned out.

 

No club should be forced to play any player simply because of their nationality. If our youngsters are not good enough to compete with foreign youngsters then it shows a serious issue with grass roots football in this country.

 

 

 

I disagree fundamentally with your statement in bold because, simply put, players improve by playing senior football. That's inarguable, and they're not getting those opportunities to develop because of how easy and cheap it is to buy a player from Europe.

 

 

That does not contradict my statement. I agree with you that giving them first team experience will improve those players, but it will not improve the quality of players that we as a country produce. You have to ask why is it so easy to replace our kids with foreign kids? Simply put its because as a nation we do not produce footballers of high quality in big enough numbers.

 

[Neil]

Hansen's retiring.

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/23968628

[Guest neesy111]

[SEMTEX]

and he still manages to anger me with his comments

 

"I've been in football for 41 years and I'm going out right at the top, just as I did at Liverpool," he said.

 

 

bleuuuuuuugh