The correct use of wide players

[Guest bimpy474]

[madras]

I'm yet to see a wide player look consistently effective when played on their unorthodox side under a 4-4-2, with the exception of genuinely world class players at world class teams where they have enough collective talent to make just about anything work.

 

We're nowhere near that level so cannot look at them and go "Well THEY manage it OK". Get the basics right and we might do OK. Otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Nothing to do with world class players, its do with being coached properly its easily done.

 

Your acting like its an alien concept, it really is quite a simple set up but we do need the right forwards and a bloody winger.

 

Besides as long as Hatem is here you will never see the typical natural wingers on both sides set up here.

which is why with the personnel we have I wouldn't be looking at using wingers but ben arfa and remy playing off a front man. sissoko and anita both seem more suited to a 3 man midfield,

 

wouldn't mind a winger as an option but players whos natural game is getting in the box is more of a need for me.

[Wullie]

Agree with the OP. Definitely don't agree that it's all about having aerial threats, a huge amount of goals are scored from low crosses between back four and goalkeeper - not by us of course but they are. Hate this idea that balls from wide areas have to be swung over to Les Ferdinand.

 

I also agree with the OP. The top teams might not have old fashioned wingers but they have players who can make use of the full width of the pitch. Why else do passing teams tend to play on bigger pitches while the cloggers try and condense it?

 

FWIW Ferguson always played with at least one traditional winger right the way through his career, often two, and very traditional full backs with excellent delivery from their natural side.

 

It's just utter nonsense to say having players on their natural foot is somehow archaic. Imagine Leighton Baines at right back with that sublime delivery negated, dear me.

[Chris_R]

I'm yet to see a wide player look consistently effective when played on their unorthodox side under a 4-4-2, with the exception of genuinely world class players at world class teams where they have enough collective talent to make just about anything work.

 

We're nowhere near that level so cannot look at them and go "Well THEY manage it OK". Get the basics right and we might do OK. Otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Nothing to do with world class players, its do with being coached properly its easily done.

 

Your acting like its an alien concept, it really is quite a simple set up but we do need the right forwards and a bloody winger.

 

OK then, I've given a few examples in the opening post to back up my argument. Care to back your views up with some examples of (non-worldclass) teams that have made wingers work on the wrong sides under 4-4-2s?

 

Besides as long as Hatem is here you will never see the typical natural wingers on both sides set up here.

 

He could play wide right in a 4-3-3 and it would work. As it has done in the past.

 

No way on earth should he play as a right winger in a 4-4-2 though. I mean the lad's got enough talent to play as a bloody fullback and look decent, but it'd be a complete waste of him to stick him as a right winger in a 4-4-2. He can offer us so much  more.

[Mole_Toonfan]

I'm yet to see a wide player look consistently effective when played on their unorthodox side under a 4-4-2, with the exception of genuinely world class players at world class teams where they have enough collective talent to make just about anything work.

 

We're nowhere near that level so cannot look at them and go "Well THEY manage it OK". Get the basics right and we might do OK. Otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Nothing to do with world class players, its do with being coached properly its easily done.

 

Your acting like its an alien concept, it really is quite a simple set up but we do need the right forwards and a bloody winger.

 

Besides as long as Hatem is here you will never see the typical natural wingers on both sides set up here.

which is why with the personnel we have I wouldn't be looking at using wingers but ben arfa and remy playing off a front man. sissoko and anita both seem more suited to a 3 man midfield,

 

wouldn't mind a winger as an option but players whos natural game is getting in the box is more of a need for me.

 

A winger who can make late runs into the box is what i want tbh, someone who can provide width but also make runs into the box when we are dawdling on the ball 25 yards from goal.

 

 

[The College Dropout]

You need some genuine width somewhere.

 

Everton play Pienaar on the leftof a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 but they have Baines providing real width. Us There's right footed Jonas and right footed Santon.

 

Today we had Marv looking to come narrow but Debuchy stayed at home......... no width or danger from that side of the pitch.

 

 

A bigger issue than that imo is closing down

[TRon]

If you have wingers that cut inside, I'd say you need other players who will pull out wide naturally. Usually it's the full backs, sometimes it's the forwards as was the case with Bellamy. The point is, you need to use the full width of the pitch somehow. Currently we  are one of the worst teams out there for doing this. We can't even get the ball from the defenders to the midfield without resorting to the hoof up front FFS.

[madras]

I'm yet to see a wide player look consistently effective when played on their unorthodox side under a 4-4-2, with the exception of genuinely world class players at world class teams where they have enough collective talent to make just about anything work.

 

We're nowhere near that level so cannot look at them and go "Well THEY manage it OK". Get the basics right and we might do OK. Otherwise it's a recipe for disaster.

 

Nothing to do with world class players, its do with being coached properly its easily done.

 

Your acting like its an alien concept, it really is quite a simple set up but we do need the right forwards and a bloody winger.

 

Besides as long as Hatem is here you will never see the typical natural wingers on both sides set up here.

which is why with the personnel we have I wouldn't be looking at using wingers but ben arfa and remy playing off a front man. sissoko and anita both seem more suited to a 3 man midfield,

 

wouldn't mind a winger as an option but players whos natural game is getting in the box is more of a need for me.

 

A winger who can make late runs into the box is what i want tbh, someone who can provide width but also make runs into the box when we are dawdling on the ball 25 yards from goal.

 

 

they can but we don't have any, we have midfielders who seem better suited to a 3 and ben arfa who'd be better off as part of a roaming duo, especially if the other is a natural at getting in the box.

 

to bring a more orthodox winger in wouldn't get the best out of the team as a whole IMO. i'm not anti 4-4-2, i just don't see it being the best for us with the players we have.

[Chris_R]

I've always been against Jonas playing right wing, as he simply cannot deliver a ball into the box with his left, nor can he cut in and shoot with his right. Again, like Santon, sporadic games on the right have failed to excite us but you can't play 20 games on the left, 1 on the right as an emergency and complain that it didn't work, then stick him back on the left for the next 20 again.

 

My argument with Jonas under a 4-4-2 has always been right side only, or if he can't do that, replace him. I'll say the same now about Santon.

[Hanshithispantz]

I think we should try something completely revolutionary and play a 4-4-2 with the 5 players on each side of the field playing on the opposite side to their preferred foot. Or the same in a 4-3-3 with two neither footed players in the central roles. Shola upfront and Tiote as the anchor.

 

It might work, it might not.

[TRon]

One of the best ways to use the width of the pitch btw, is for the keeper to throw the ball out to the full backs who can then bring the ball out. We prefer to smash the ball long to the CF whether he's equipped for it or not.

[Heron]

Put them in goal. Simples.

[Mole_Toonfan]

 

He could play wide right in a 4-3-3 and it would work. As it has done in the past.

 

No way on earth should he play as a right winger in a 4-4-2 though. I mean the lad's got enough talent to play as a bloody fullback and look decent, but it'd be a complete waste of him to stick him as a right winger in a 4-4-2. He can offer us so much  more.

 

I agree on 433 i'm just saying we could go 442 and have it work IF we get a winger and the right type of striker.

 

As for examples i won't bother naming world class teams i'll just explain how it work from when we hold our shape and when we are in the final third in possession.

 

Holding shape:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811902_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

In possession/attacking:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811905_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

[madras]

One of the best ways to use the width of the pitch btw, is for the keeper to throw the ball out to the full backs who can then bring the ball out. We prefer to smash the ball long to the CF whether he's equipped for it or not.

tbf due to not getting players in the box the oppo can usually press high against us meaning the full back gets closed down quickly.

[Guest bimpy474]

 

He could play wide right in a 4-3-3 and it would work. As it has done in the past.

 

No way on earth should he play as a right winger in a 4-4-2 though. I mean the lad's got enough talent to play as a bloody fullback and look decent, but it'd be a complete waste of him to stick him as a right winger in a 4-4-2. He can offer us so much  more.

 

I agree on 433 i'm just saying we could go 442 and have it work IF we get a winger and the right type of striker.

 

As for examples i won't bother naming world class teams i'll just explain how it work from when we hold our shape and when we are in the final third in possession.

 

Holding shape:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811902_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

In possession/attacking:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811905_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

Santon's a bit deep in the attacking bit as are the whole team, you Pardew Mole ?

[Mole_Toonfan]

It was just an explanation, its not down to an exact science i'm not that great at drawing those things

[Guest bimpy474]

It was just an explanation, its not down to an exact science i'm not that great at drawing those things

 

You never drew that, that was on a computer or something

 

I know what you were getting at with it though

[LucaAltieri]

 

He could play wide right in a 4-3-3 and it would work. As it has done in the past.

 

No way on earth should he play as a right winger in a 4-4-2 though. I mean the lad's got enough talent to play as a bloody fullback and look decent, but it'd be a complete waste of him to stick him as a right winger in a 4-4-2. He can offer us so much  more.

 

I agree on 433 i'm just saying we could go 442 and have it work IF we get a winger and the right type of striker.

 

As for examples i won't bother naming world class teams i'll just explain how it work from when we hold our shape and when we are in the final third in possession.

 

Holding shape:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811902_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

In possession/attacking:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811905_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

Santon's a bit deep in the attacking bit as are the whole team, you Pardew Mole ?

 

In that formation Debuchy has space in front of him. Santon doesn't.

 

It's very common for teams to not be symmetrical. It actually makes more sense to have one fullback deep and one pushing up. You don't want them both bombing forward and leaving you without cover.

[Gallowgate Toon]

Being a narrow side isn't really an issue if you have the strikers and wide men to suit it.  Ben Arfa and Marveaux drifting in is fine but there either needs to be forwards moving about ahead of them or strikers comfortable showing for and playing quick interchanges in tight spaces.

[TRon]

One of the best ways to use the width of the pitch btw, is for the keeper to throw the ball out to the full backs who can then bring the ball out. We prefer to smash the ball long to the CF whether he's equipped for it or not.

tbf due to not getting players in the box the oppo can usually press high against us meaning the full back gets closed down quickly.

 

That's why it's not a great tactic to sit so deep and use the long ball as an out. If we encouraged forward movement and passed the ball quicker in possession like the better teams I think we could do much better. Just think back to what Keegan did to the side we were struggling with under Allardyce.

[Guest bimpy474]

 

He could play wide right in a 4-3-3 and it would work. As it has done in the past.

 

No way on earth should he play as a right winger in a 4-4-2 though. I mean the lad's got enough talent to play as a bloody fullback and look decent, but it'd be a complete waste of him to stick him as a right winger in a 4-4-2. He can offer us so much  more.

 

I agree on 433 i'm just saying we could go 442 and have it work IF we get a winger and the right type of striker.

 

As for examples i won't bother naming world class teams i'll just explain how it work from when we hold our shape and when we are in the final third in possession.

 

Holding shape:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811902_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

In possession/attacking:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811905_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

Santon's a bit deep in the attacking bit as are the whole team, you Pardew Mole ?

 

In that formation Debuchy has space in front of him. Santon doesn't.

 

It's very common for teams to not be symmetrical. It actually makes more sense to have one fullback deep and one pushing up. You don't want them both bombing forward and leaving you without cover.

 

Well thank you for explaining that, i shall go away and revaluate my opinion on the situation.

[Rich]

One of the best ways to use the width of the pitch btw, is for the keeper to throw the ball out to the full backs who can then bring the ball out. We prefer to smash the ball long to the CF whether he's equipped for it or not.

tbf due to not getting players in the box the oppo can usually press high against us meaning the full back gets closed down quickly.

 

That's why it's not a great tactic to sit so deep and use the long ball as an out. If we encouraged forward movement and passed the ball quicker in possession like the better teams I think we could do much better. Just think back to what Keegan did to the side we were struggling with under Allardyce.

 

Was saying this to my brother earlier, although I was stressing how look it actually took KK to get us sorted out and looking fluid again.

 

It feels to me like we're at as low an ebb as we were under Allardyce and I personally can't see a quick way out of it, especially without a change of manager.

 

We're not just going to flick a switch and starting playing great all of a sudden, everyone's confidence is on the floor.

 

This is an interesting thread by the way and the wide areas are definitely one of our major problems.

[LucaAltieri]

 

He could play wide right in a 4-3-3 and it would work. As it has done in the past.

 

No way on earth should he play as a right winger in a 4-4-2 though. I mean the lad's got enough talent to play as a bloody fullback and look decent, but it'd be a complete waste of him to stick him as a right winger in a 4-4-2. He can offer us so much  more.

 

I agree on 433 i'm just saying we could go 442 and have it work IF we get a winger and the right type of striker.

 

As for examples i won't bother naming world class teams i'll just explain how it work from when we hold our shape and when we are in the final third in possession.

 

Holding shape:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811902_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

In possession/attacking:

http://www.footballuser.com/formations/2013/08/811905_Newcastle_United.jpg

 

 

Santon's a bit deep in the attacking bit as are the whole team, you Pardew Mole ?

 

In that formation Debuchy has space in front of him. Santon doesn't.

 

It's very common for teams to not be symmetrical. It actually makes more sense to have one fullback deep and one pushing up. You don't want them both bombing forward and leaving you without cover.

 

Well thank you for explaining that, i shall go away and revaluate my opinion on the situation.

 

Happy to help.

[Mole_Toonfan]

It was just an explanation, its not down to an exact science i'm not that great at drawing those things

 

You never drew that, that was on a computer or something

 

I know what you were getting at with it though

 

Oi, i typed the names out and everything

[LucaAltieri]

Too simplistic. Too 90s.

 

It winds me up that everyone seems to think they know more about tactics than Pardew because you can't work out what he's doing.

 

Hint: He does this for a living. If you can't work out his game plan it's because you're falling short in your analysis, not him.

 

I have no coherent reponse to this mess of a post. I can only sum up my thoughts with the following combination of emoticons:

 

 

I stand by it. The man has been in professional football management for the best part of 15 years, FFS.

 

He might not get it right all that often over the last 12 months but it's a fuck sight more nuanced than "lefties on the left, righties on the right, whip it in, lads."