Match-going fans - deserving of blame?

[Beren]

[Guest Dontooner]

Supporting through thick and thin captures a lot - being f***ed over by refs, blowing your last chance at silverware or success for what you expect will be an unforeseeably long time etc... but it doesn't include funding/supporting a management structure which seeks to deny you the opportunity to even feel such nadirs/injustice or makes you ashamed of the club.

 

I'd personally even go as far to argue its incumbent upon fans who support what I perceive to be the values of the club, to turn your back on those who seek to make it into the pathetic sponsorship vehicle it is (/becoming). Supporting your club does not exclusively occur through the emptying of your wallet into Ashley's collection sack and obsequiously watching and passively swallowing whatever they serve (reminder: if this Cisse deals go through, Shola is our owned first-choice striker), and I'd wager a lot of the fans who aren't renewing find it quite agonising to stay away. I wouldn't call them fairweather fans (or whatever meaningless barb you want) at all. I've never been a ST and if that invalidates my opinion, so be it - but I miss coming up to Newcastle the handful of times I go every season and I'd much prefer to go than stay away.

 

Whether or not you see value in fans staying away is irrelevant.

 

Outside influences provide no excuses whatsoever as to why a clubs crowds drop off.  If our crowds dropped to 20,000 off the back of being 8th it would be a stick that was used to beat us for decades to come.

 

See this section of NUFC.com for example...

 

http://www.nufc.com/html/where-were-we.html

 

There's no context given to excuse ANY clubs poor attendances.  Man City got 3000 people to a game in 1998.  That's it.  Inexcusable...

 

"Where were you when you were s***?"

 

Fans wear their attendance records like a badge of honour.  If circumstances dictate that you don't have that badge in the first place, it doesn't make you a lesser person, but it does make it easier to argue that others should sacrifice their's.

 

Strange breed football fans.  In 20 years when we win the title five years running the proudest people won't be those that stopped going and forced Ashley out, it will be those who regale the new fans about "You don't know you're born you lot, I was there when we lost to the Mackems 3 nil at home 2 years running, 6 nil off Liverpool etc."

 

You still see it now, 20 years since, from people who went to Derby, Leicester, Wolves and that in 92.

The same could be said if the fans actually amount to something that could change the dictatorship of the wrong regime. The same fans that made a difference to the city and  club would be proud to say "Newcastle is ours and only ours" we made it right at that moment. I certainly think fans should go to games, but they should not be mindless puppets manipulated to such a large extend.

When things are going in the wrong direction , we need people who cares the most to force steer us into the right way.

Its painful to be see your son doing the wrong things, you either don't do anything about it because he is your son and love him regardless or you try you best to bring him into the right place because you know its better for him.

Either way you love him.

 

[Spudil]

We only have one way of fighting this and it just seems people are doing the opposite despite being treat with constant contempt.

 

There's just no significant opposition to the utter s*** we're being put through and that needs to change.

 

Spot on.

 

We will of course though see in this thread the vacuous argument that being a supporter means going to matches regardless of any circumstance and that it is even somehow admirable to actively enable those who take the p*ss out of you. Which is akin to some sort of retarded old military romanticism like charging at machine guns.

 

Nice analogy.

 

 

Supporting through thick and thin captures a lot - being f***ed over by refs, blowing your last chance at silverware or success for what you expect will be an unforeseeably long time etc... but it doesn't include funding/supporting a management structure which seeks to deny you the opportunity to even feel such nadirs/injustice or makes you ashamed of the club.

 

 

Summed up nicely.

 

Now HF am I right in saying that you think it does include these circumstances?

 

If your answer is yes the fair enough. But you should at least be man enough to admit that it is a romantic, backwards, unproductive and Mike Ashley enabling viewpoint to hold. Do you admit this?

 

Try and be straight with your answers, avoiding the issue and launching off into romantic gibberish is tiresome.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I would say it's romantic, and probably unproductive (albeit in the context that I think no view here is productive). But not necessarily backwards, and completely irrelevant to Mike Ashley so therefore not enabling either.

[Dr Venkman]

 

Also, the idea that attendances are dropping because we're 8th is laughable, and along the lines if something I'd expect to hear from fans of other clubs with little clue about what's actually going on.

 

Yeah, like .com do to other fans on that page I linked to.

 

Kinda making my point for me again.

 

What?

 

Attendance through bad times is a badge of honour and a stick to beat you with, regardless of context.

 

Our attendances have increased year on year for the past 4 years by the way.

 

 

 

You've lost me. When did I make your point for you?

 

I don't place any stock in what other fans say about us, I don't care.

 

I can hold that view and still think the proposition that people are walking away now because we're 8th is the theory of an uneducated person, ie a fan of another club who has only a passing interest in our affairs.

[Happy Face]

We only have one way of fighting this and it just seems people are doing the opposite despite being treat with constant contempt.

 

There's just no significant opposition to the utter s*** we're being put through and that needs to change.

 

Spot on.

 

We will of course though see in this thread the vacuous argument that being a supporter means going to matches regardless of any circumstance and that it is even somehow admirable to actively enable those who take the p*ss out of you. Which is akin to some sort of retarded old military romanticism like charging at machine guns.

 

Nice analogy.

 

 

Supporting through thick and thin captures a lot - being f***ed over by refs, blowing your last chance at silverware or success for what you expect will be an unforeseeably long time etc... but it doesn't include funding/supporting a management structure which seeks to deny you the opportunity to even feel such nadirs/injustice or makes you ashamed of the club.

 

 

Summed up nicely.

 

Now HF am I right in saying that you think it does include these circumstances?

 

If your answer is yes the fair enough. But you should at least be man enough to admit that it is a romantic, backwards, unproductive and Mike Ashley enabling viewpoint to hold. Do you admit this?

 

Try and be straight with your answers, avoiding the issue and launching off into romantic gibberish is tiresome.

 

That's the very definition of it.

 

I reject your view that it's Ashley enabling for the reasons I've already laid out.

 

Our attendances have been growing for 4 years.  Not shrinking.  Any fans that were angry enough to stop going have either returned or been replaced by the offer of cheaper tickets.  Tickets that will only continue to get cheaper the more people refuse to pay top whack.  The financial impact of cheaper tickets is negligible given the new TV deal this year.

 

Football supporting is a romantic, backward life.  People spend decades looking forward to they day they have kids and can take them to the game.  People have bairns who love Ben Arfa, Remy, or Cabaye and love going to watch them, irrespective of Mike Ashley's profit margin.  Groups of lads have entire relationships with each other built around the shared act of going to the football and moaning about the shite on show.  Not winning owt in 40 years and only reaching a handful of finals has never changed that.

 

I'm not even someone that would make the argument that you MUST always go.  Said earlier that my 3 year deal ends this summer so I'm giving serious consideration about what I do.  If someone wants to cajole and convince me not to renew with reasoned argument then I'm already inclined to go along with them.

 

Any fucker that goes to 2 games a year who tells me I'm a cunt for giving it a second thought is more likely to get my back up though.  I repeat, nowt but respect for people giving it up on principal, but think those who are still too tied into the club to do that should get the same respect rather than being told they're Ashley apologists & enablers.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

[Happy Face]

 

Also, the idea that attendances are dropping because we're 8th is laughable, and along the lines if something I'd expect to hear from fans of other clubs with little clue about what's actually going on.

 

Yeah, like .com do to other fans on that page I linked to.

 

Kinda making my point for me again.

 

What?

 

Attendance through bad times is a badge of honour and a stick to beat you with, regardless of context.

 

Our attendances have increased year on year for the past 4 years by the way.

 

 

 

You've lost me. When did I make your point for you?

 

I don't place any stock in what other fans say about us, I don't care.

 

I can hold that view and still think the proposition that people are walking away now because we're 8th is the theory of an uneducated person, ie a fan of another club who has only a passing interest in our affairs.

I said

 

There's no context given to excuse ANY clubs poor attendances.  Man City got 3000 people to a game in 1998.  That's it.  Inexcusable...

 

"Where were you when you were shit?"

 

You said it's something you'd expect to hear from fans of other clubs with little clue about what's actually going on.  Agreeing with me.

 

Good for you that you don't care about other fans yourself, but on the whole, fans take pride in their own club's attendance and use those of opponents as criticism.

 

I have Man U supporting mates on my facebook page right now having massive long arguments with Man City fans about attendances from 1974, because that's where the shift in power currently happening leads fans...to their history.

 

That's not why I'm necessarily going to keep my ticket if it happens, but it plays into your thinking.

[Dave]

Any fucker that goes to 2 games a year who tells me I'm a cunt for giving it a second thought is more likely to get my back up though.  I repeat, nowt but respect for people giving it up on principal, but think those who are still too tied into the club to do that should get the same respect rather than being told they're Ashley apologists & enablers.

 

Agree with that.

[Guest bimpy474]

People go because they support the team, the 11 lads in the shirts, not the cunts running the club and they shouldn't be called anything for that.

 

This club was here before those cunts, and will be after. Soon being our endless hope right now.

[binnsy]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

[Guest bimpy474]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

 

I think we're in big trouble, not relegation stuff but Pardew looked like he did when he had no clue last season. He looks like a man who's shot to me.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

 

I guess even talking about any specific league position is surely missing the point.

[Guest neesy111]

The issue we have now, is a total lack of goals throughout the team apart from Remy and Gouffran.  Need De Jong to get fit and stake his claim.

[Guest bimpy474]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

 

I guess even talking about any specific league position is surely missing the point.

 

Aye, right now it doesn't matter. Newcastle United just doesn't feel like our club at the moment.

[Happy Face]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

 

I was careful to be specific...

 

"If our crowds dropped to 20,000 off the back of being 8th"

 

Not finishing 8th. 

 

You also misread what I said, or took at face value what others suggested I said.  I never said it would be wrong to pack in when we're 8th, nor would it be if we were 10th.  But that the media and supporter perception that lasted in 10 years time, would be the same as the myth that has built around us booing Bobby Robson and wanting him sacked for finishing 5th.  No context or understanding would be afforded of any frustration the fans had been feeling after years of mis-management.  The headline would be that we got half the crowd Sunderland did after finishing (say) 8 places above them.

[loki679]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

 

I was careful to be specific...

 

"If our crowds dropped to 20,000 off the back of being 8th"

 

Not finishing 8th. 

 

You also misread what I said, or took at face value what others suggested I said.  I never said it would be wrong to pack in when we're 8th, nor would it be if we were 10th.  But that the media and supporter perception that lasted in 10 years time, would be the same as the myth that has built around us booing Bobby Robson and wanting him sacked for finishing 5th.  No context or understanding would be afforded of any frustration the fans had been feeling after years of mis-management.  The headline would be that we got half the crowd Sunderland did after finishing (say) 8 places above them.

 

I don't give a fuck what other fans say about us either now or in 10 years time.

[Guest bimpy474]

People saying it's wrong to be packing in when the club is 8th in the league are surely missing the point cos the club is on a downward spiral and won't be finishing the league in 8th spot, we will be lucky to finish in the top 10.

 

I was careful to be specific...

 

"If our crowds dropped to 20,000 off the back of being 8th"

 

Not finishing 8th. 

 

You also misread what I said, or took at face value what others suggested I said.  I never said it would be wrong to pack in when we're 8th, nor would it be if we were 10th.  But that the media and supporter perception that lasted in 10 years time, would be the same as the myth that has built around us booing Bobby Robson and wanting him sacked for finishing 5th.  No context or understanding would be afforded of any frustration the fans had been feeling after years of mis-management.  The headline would be that we got half the crowd Sunderland did after finishing (say) 8 places above them.

 

I don't give a fuck what other fans say about us either now or in 10 years time.

 

Spot on.

[Happy Face]

I don't give a fuck what other fans say about us either now or in 10 years time.

 

Spot on.

 

That's good.  I'm sure if any opposing fans tried to rub your noses in it you'd make mincemeat of them by educating them in the intricacies of our situation as well.

 

I had only made the point to someone who was saying that supporting through thick and thin didn't cover the current situation.  As if there's some caveat about our situation that doesn't apply elsewhere.

 

It's actually exactly the sort of time that "thick and thin" refers to.  A phrase that makes no allowances for the nuanced context we can see.

[Guest bimpy474]

I don't give a fuck what other fans say about us either now or in 10 years time.

 

Spot on.

 

That's good.  I'm sure if any opposing fans tried to rub your noses in it you'd make mincemeat of them by educating them in the intricacies of our situation as well.

 

I had only made the point to someone who was saying that supporting through thick and thin didn't cover the current situation.  As if there's some caveat about our situation that doesn't apply elsewhere.

 

It's actually exactly the sort of time that "thick and thin" refers to.  A phrase that makes no allowances for the nuanced context we can see.

 

<a href="http://reactiongifs.com/?p=18325"><img src="http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/nofu.gif"></a>

[Interpolic]

[Guest reefatoon]

I don't give a f*** what other fans say about us either now or in 10 years time.

 

Spot on.

 

That's good.  I'm sure if any opposing fans tried to rub your noses in it you'd make mincemeat of them by educating them in the intricacies of our situation as well.

 

I had only made the point to someone who was saying that supporting through thick and thin didn't cover the current situation.  As if there's some caveat about our situation that doesn't apply elsewhere.

 

It's actually exactly the sort of time that "thick and thin" refers to.  A phrase that makes no allowances for the nuanced context we can see.

 

True. I better start carrying around your back catalogue of powerpoint charts to back it up.

[Spudil]

Any f***er that goes to 2 games a year who tells me I'm a c*** for giving it a second thought is more likely to get my back up though.  I repeat, nowt but respect for people giving it up on principal, but think those who are still too tied into the club to do that should get the same respect rather than being told they're Ashley apologists & enablers.

 

Agree with that.

 

I don't see why anyone is deserving of respect if they are unwilling to make sacrifices for the greater good of the club.

 

I can certainly see why they make the decisions they do and you have to accept them - and I don't condemn it , but I can't respect it.

 

Making a sacrifice,giving up something you enjoy for the greater good of the club? How can you not respect that.

 

I wouldn't call someone an apologist for going to a match but it's just factual that it means you are enabling.

 

 

[Guest bimpy474]

 

Well it was such a patronising post i couldn't help myself, the first sentence is insulting.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Any f***er that goes to 2 games a year who tells me I'm a c*** for giving it a second thought is more likely to get my back up though.  I repeat, nowt but respect for people giving it up on principal, but think those who are still too tied into the club to do that should get the same respect rather than being told they're Ashley apologists & enablers.

 

Agree with that.

 

I don't see why anyone is deserving of respect if they are unwilling to make sacrifices for the greater good of the club.

 

I can certainly see why they make the decisions they do and you have to accept them and I don't condemn it , but I can't respect it.

 

Making a sacrifice,giving up something you enjoy for the greater good of the club? How can you not respect that.

 

I wouldn't call someone an apologist for going to a match but it's just factual that it means you are enabling.

 

 

It's only enabling if you accept the premise that not going would make any difference... which I don't.