Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Ben Arfa has fallen out with managers other than Pardew. Players who barely have a fifth of Ben Arfa's talent have done well under Pardew. Pardew is shit, but it's very naive to believe that Ben Arfa would have thrived under any decent manager. He's far from blameless in any of this. That's not really the point. He was thriving for us under Pardew, that's the entire basis for this argument. No one is suggesting he's a saint, but it doesn't come before the benefit of the football, the results and the team. You can quite easily point at Pardew and do the same - Ben Arfa, Tevez, Mascherano, Marveaux, Yanga-Mbiwa, Bigirimana, Jonas, Cabella are all players that have either fallen out with Pardew or been dropped for non-football reasons. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I just don't get this need to pin the blame entirely on one side or another. Obviously we won't know exactly how much responsibility each side holds for things breaking down but I'm pretty sure it isn't 100% to 0%. Pardew's a shit manager but it really can't be denied that Ben Arfa has his own issues. His record shows a consistent pattern of interpersonal difficulties that have limited his success at every club he's been at. The likes of Tevez or Mascherano seem to have done just fine for themselves despite having been "Pardewed" for a period of time. (And by all accounts both of them are pretty intense headcases as well) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I'll never blame Ben Arfa because of all the shit he had to deal with for years before he simply had enough. It was a miracle it lasted as long as it did before he "rebelled" against Pardew after the constant disgusting treatment for no reason. Don't really care what he did at other clubs, all I know is at this club he was fine for years until like a year ago when he rightfully had enough of Pardew's crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I'll never blame Ben Arfa because of all the shit he had to deal with for years before he simply had enough. It was a miracle it lasted as long as it did before he "rebelled" against Pardew after the constant disgusting treatment for no reason. Don't really care what he did at other clubs, all I know is at this club he was fine for years until like a year ago when he rightfully had enough of Pardew's crap. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I hate Pardew so god damn much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Players who barely have a fifth of Ben Arfa's talent have done well under Pardew. I don't see how this is a good argument Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense. Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense. Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job. Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Nope I looked at his entire career for us not just one year. He was here for 5 years and treated like crap the entire time. I'm surprised it took till the 5th year before he finally had enough, with his reputation I would have expected him to start getting pissed when he was getting benched for Raylor and Obertan. He never did though, i doubt there is many players out there who could have dealt with the same crap for 4 years and been ok with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense. Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job. Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase? Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job FULL STOP! We have had players for years and years that are shit at their jobs, yet that's less relevant than someone being a bit of a dick but being very good at their job? Howeh! He wouldn't have even been here if he wasn't a bit of a nutcase, we all knew that. People go on like we've consistently had better players over the years when we all know that we absolutely haven't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense. Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job. Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase? Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job FULL STOP! We have had players for years and years that are shit at their jobs, yet that's less relevant than someone being a bit of a dick but being very good at their job? Howeh! He wouldn't have even been here if he wasn't a bit of a nutcase, we all knew that. People go on like we've consistently had better players over the years when we all know that we absolutely haven't. So just because Shola Ameobi exists Ben Arfa is immune from any criticism about allowing his immense talent to go to waste? I just don't get it. I agree that he wouldn't have been here in the first place if he wasn't a known troublemaker I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I mean obviously if you choose to ignore every other part of his career, choose the one year he was playing very well for us, then conclude that that's the real Ben Arfa and everything else is Pardew's fault... Well, there's really no arguing against that. Well, what are you even arguing for man? You're basically suggesting that his personality or attitude has a lot to do with it as if that's in any way more important than what he does come the weekend. It's not, at the other end of the scale you have people like Shola Ameobi, zero talent, total commitment and attitude yet produces exactly fuck all and carves out a career for himself here because the coaches invest more in what players can do in training and what their attitude is than what they do on the pitch. It's utter nonsense. Ben Arfa by most accounts might be a bit of a nutcase, but that's nowhere near as important as being a very good at your job. Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job and also not be a nutcase? Is it genuinely too much to ask that you be good at your job FULL STOP! We have had players for years and years that are shit at their jobs, yet that's less relevant than someone being a bit of a dick but being very good at their job? Howeh! He wouldn't have even been here if he wasn't a bit of a nutcase, we all knew that. People go on like we've consistently had better players over the years when we all know that we absolutely haven't. So just because Shola Ameobi exists Ben Arfa is immune from any criticism about allowing his immense talent to go to waste? I just don't get it. I agree that he wouldn't have been here in the first place if he wasn't a known troublemaker I suppose. No, it's because Shola Ameobi, or Ryan Taylor, or Yoan Gouffran, or Gabriel Obertan, or Dan Gosling have ALL been chosen ahead of him. And yeah, it kind of does make him immune to criticism when he's been treated that way. If I was Ben Arfa and that set of utter shit was played ahead of me I'd be fucking livid. It's looking a gift horse in the mouth imo. Massively so. The last player that we had with that much talent was Beardsley and people are whinging about his unseen, perceived, non-footballing attitude, that we already knew he had, towards Alan fucking Pardew. It knocks me sick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 We disagree I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Aye, you could say so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 He is a manager. HBA sat on the sidelines week after week and made himself available for selection. He did not manage him well and thus has failed in his job. If all players were easy to manage it'd be easy to be a manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I was thinking about this on the bus before. Surely you're no longer a manager if you're putting stats above your professional judgement? That time he was going on about Santon's stats being good and everyone knew he'd had a poor game, even he said 'he might have looked poor, but...' If you're doing that, you're no longer doing your job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorJ_01 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 I'm a huge believer and lover of performance stats but any statistician/mathematician knows they should only be used as guidelines. You can link rice cultivation to literacy in Greece if you wanted but it doesn't mean we should cultivate more rice. These guys are letting it trump their own brain which is very depressing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Carver's comments on burnley was the worst My eyes told me we looked good against Burnley for 45 mins, but the numbers said differently so my eyes were wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanj Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 oldtype has been broken by Ashley / Pardew. :-( Dude sounds so doom and gloom it's depressing. f*** off to the regime. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 oldtype has been broken by Ashley / Pardew. :-( Dude sounds so doom and gloom it's depressing. f*** off to the regime. I'm a rational poster. I've just rationally decided that everything that can go wrong at NUFC will go wrong forever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
matta Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Good bye sweet prince. Biggest "what might have been" for as long as i can remember. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Good bye sweet prince. Biggest "what might have been" for as long as i can remember. That last line could sum up his career tbh. The reason we signed him as a newly-promoted club was because he was a troubled genius, the reason he's leaving appears to be the same. I'd like to think that whoever comes in will makes us even better with Ayoze, Cabella, De Jong fit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ads Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Good bye sweet prince. Biggest "what might have been" for as long as i can remember. Aye, the excitement of him signing, photos in the airport etc, was just an unbelievable time. Knowing what a wonderful player he was on his day and to think he could play for us, it was just so incredibly exciting. Then that goal against Everton, wow. The injury was heartbreaking but he seemed to come back from that strongly, his goals against Blackburn and Bolton will live seriously long in the memory but the one at West Brom, that lightning quick counter, was just exhilirating to watch. What a player. I don't doubt that he was trouble, but if he was managed correctly he could have been so much more for us, we gave him the love he craved at OM and Lyon, it seemed like a perfect match. Heartbreaking seeing what's happened to him, the day he went to Hull was an embarrassment for the club. Like I said, I know he's had issues and perhaps we'll never know the full extent of them, but it seemed all he needed was to feel loved and wanted, I think the club let him down in that sense, Pardew in particular. Attitude aside, deep down all football fans love players like Hatem and it's gutting to know he'll never play for us again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
loki679 Posted January 5, 2015 Share Posted January 5, 2015 Agree with oldtype tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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